Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)
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Be aware that the wind information by tower is also not always accurate, especially in more southern countries...
A good commander will take-in all possible weather/wind info, add it to the reported runway condition and length and decide accordingly to land or to fly-away from it.
That said, this is always easier said than done, and to the Pprune-inquisition: go play somewhere else with your flightsim. Professional flight-crew know to hold their judgement untill all facts are known. Basic airmanship it's called.
A good commander will take-in all possible weather/wind info, add it to the reported runway condition and length and decide accordingly to land or to fly-away from it.
That said, this is always easier said than done, and to the Pprune-inquisition: go play somewhere else with your flightsim. Professional flight-crew know to hold their judgement untill all facts are known. Basic airmanship it's called.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Be aware that the wind information by tower is also not always accurate, especially in more southern countries...
This is exactly the sort of scenario which starts to increase the pressure on crews and judgement can become compromised. If ATC try to cajole you - remember it's for their benefit not yours. Stick to your guns - don't allow your judgement to be compromised!
A4
IMO the biggest culprit is IBZ. "Calm" often in reality means 10 tail. I've heard of an aircraft refusing to accept the excessive tailwind on the approach/surface (others were landing....) requesting 06 instead but in effect being told to "get lost" and ended up diverting to PMI.
Reminds me of a fatal windshear accident to a B727 landing at JFK (I think) in the late 1960s or early 1970s. The previous a/c after landing told ATC in fairly strong terms that they needed to change the runway. ATC replied "Where I am sitting it's 15 kts down the runway". The a/c replied by saying I don't care where you are sitting I still think you should change the runway to RW XX. The next a/c on the approach was advised but crashed half a mile short of the runway.
In the report it transpired that the controllers on duty did not understand what windshear was and that this could be a problem even if the wind was 15kts down the runway. This was not there fault - they had not received any training concerning windshear. One of the recommendations of the report was that windshear was covered in any ATCOs training.
I've never ever ever heard of 15 kts TWC limitations.
As an aside when Brittania Airways were the first UK operator to put the B737-200 on the UK register they asked Boeing to provide AFM data for 15kts tailwind component for take off and landing since the graphs only went up to 10kts. I believe they had to pay for this but it was money well spent.
As regards the take off situation we had an instruction that it was preferable to take off downwind rather than into wind where an emergency turn was involved in the event of engine failure after V1. Casein point was Malaga - better to take off downwind towards the sea with a tailwind rather than into wind towards all the high terrain.
Hope this helps.
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In my company we also do 15kts tailwind landings on certain 'approved' airfields, otherwise it's 10kts. These are the airports that have long runways and normally only an instrument approach in one direction.
With regards to tower reported winds: It's all so nice.....in theory. But I also remember a topic here on PPRuNe not so long ago, about tower reported winds at Spanish airports. They always say 'calm' when it's in their interest, i.e. then there's no need to change the runway. In reality you can definately expect a reasonable tailwind.
After operating to these kind of places we generally know at what airports you can rely on ATC reports and at what places you can't. This definately happens in Spain but I would also not rely on the smaller French airfields (like the ones Ryanair flies to) too much. Don't believe the TWR reported winds are holy and the FMC is not to be used!
With regards to tower reported winds: It's all so nice.....in theory. But I also remember a topic here on PPRuNe not so long ago, about tower reported winds at Spanish airports. They always say 'calm' when it's in their interest, i.e. then there's no need to change the runway. In reality you can definately expect a reasonable tailwind.
After operating to these kind of places we generally know at what airports you can rely on ATC reports and at what places you can't. This definately happens in Spain but I would also not rely on the smaller French airfields (like the ones Ryanair flies to) too much. Don't believe the TWR reported winds are holy and the FMC is not to be used!
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just thought i'd add some.
No one seems to have mentioned how much of a 'dog' the -800 is to land with the winglets on. All you need is some gusting winds, some fantasy wind report from the tower, too smooth a landing on a wet runway then your margins are reduced. Throw in the winglets and your casting the dice!
No one seems to have mentioned how much of a 'dog' the -800 is to land with the winglets on. All you need is some gusting winds, some fantasy wind report from the tower, too smooth a landing on a wet runway then your margins are reduced. Throw in the winglets and your casting the dice!
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P Pete,
Next time you do a crosswind landing, ask your mate (PM) to have a look at the wind arrow or value on PP2 when you squeeze a bit of rudder in. It's interesting how the values change.
Regards,
Fred
Next time you do a crosswind landing, ask your mate (PM) to have a look at the wind arrow or value on PP2 when you squeeze a bit of rudder in. It's interesting how the values change.
Regards,
Fred
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Sad sad sad Morning Glory. A bit jealous of the ex-Sabenien skills maybe?!
These ex Sabena guys ARE aces my friend, and you can learn a hell of a lot of them. And indeed, if you can't fly (not simply following a magenta cross on the PFD), then they would let you know, and try to improve your basic skills. I almost never use F/D if in VMC, why on earth would I ?!
CRM nightmare?! Au contraire mon ami.
These ex Sabena guys ARE aces my friend, and you can learn a hell of a lot of them. And indeed, if you can't fly (not simply following a magenta cross on the PFD), then they would let you know, and try to improve your basic skills. I almost never use F/D if in VMC, why on earth would I ?!
CRM nightmare?! Au contraire mon ami.
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pete
all indicated data is subject to a damping cycle to prevent distortions caused by changes in instantaneous inputs from the sensors. according to the manufacturers ( Smiths GEC ) this could be up to 40s but could also be less.
Next time you taxi off stand, get the PM to let you know when the GS readout starts. you'll get some idea how long the cycle is for that phase of flight (taxi). Might only be 5s but it won't be instantaneous.
If you want to talk about company manuals, try finding the tyre pressures in the part B!! Tyre pressure is an important factor with wet runways, but it's not in the part B, since it isn't a need to know value, so you might not find it.
If that isn't in the technical manual then why do you suppose fmgc update rates will be?
Also, a quick study of JAROPS reveals that the wind componant to be used is the reported wind.
Prog page 2 is useful, but on touchdown I'd rather not be using the 1000' spot wind.
Next time you taxi off stand, get the PM to let you know when the GS readout starts. you'll get some idea how long the cycle is for that phase of flight (taxi). Might only be 5s but it won't be instantaneous.
If you want to talk about company manuals, try finding the tyre pressures in the part B!! Tyre pressure is an important factor with wet runways, but it's not in the part B, since it isn't a need to know value, so you might not find it.
If that isn't in the technical manual then why do you suppose fmgc update rates will be?
Also, a quick study of JAROPS reveals that the wind componant to be used is the reported wind.
Prog page 2 is useful, but on touchdown I'd rather not be using the 1000' spot wind.
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I think that some of the previous posters forget that their job is to provide a safe, comfordable flight for the people that pay the wages, and not to provide a demonstration of their exceedingly great skills. If the two coincide that is a bonus.
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Lets just say, well I think they thought they were top guns, never used autopilot or FD's and thought every FO was incapable of flying the plane. CRM nightmare. Bet my last dollar it was one of these guys in the LHS.
While RYR have their faults, these do not lie with their flight deck crew.Any RYR crew that I have ever come across have been as professional and personable as any other operator.
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Your opinion schoolkid. I have come across both excellent and dross in both seats in FR.
As far as the Sabena guys go. Yep I think I may have been a bit harsh in my judgement, and did not intend to insult anyone, I will therefore edit my previous post. They were undoubtedly very good handlers, I agree.
Just found some of them, sometimes, a bit too willing to unnecessarily prove to the other pilot how great they were when conditions and work load didn't really call for it.
Snam you do make me laugh. Don't be naive and ridiculous. Do you have any command experience? quite funny though I must say...
Last edited by MorningGlory; 25th Mar 2008 at 10:14.
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Your opinion schoolkid. I have come across both excellent and dross in both seats in FR.
I think it is fair to say that this would be applicable to just about any Operator out there.Even going on just some of the posts you see on these forums from time to time, from apparently CPL holders. RYR would not be alone in having the odd rebel in the organisation.
Last edited by schoolkid; 25th Mar 2008 at 18:40.
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What's happening today at Limoges?
According to the airport's own website Af seem to have cancelled their eight flights today, but FR still seem to be operating their two flights.
According to the airport's own website Af seem to have cancelled their eight flights today, but FR still seem to be operating their two flights.
Last edited by Three Yellows; 25th Mar 2008 at 14:01. Reason: spelling
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schoolkid
Quote:
Your opinion schoolkid. I have come across both excellent and dross in both seats in FR.
MG,
I think it is fair to say that this would be applicable to just about any Operator out there.Even going on just some of the posts you see on this forums from time to time, from apparently CPL holders, RYR would not be alone in having the odd rebel in the organisation.
Ditto
Quote:
Your opinion schoolkid. I have come across both excellent and dross in both seats in FR.
MG,
I think it is fair to say that this would be applicable to just about any Operator out there.Even going on just some of the posts you see on this forums from time to time, from apparently CPL holders, RYR would not be alone in having the odd rebel in the organisation.
Ditto
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I have flown with a lot of ex Sabena Capts who are now with FR. They are extremely competent & are very good handling pilots. They do indulge in the raw data stuff which is great, do it myself when the time is right.
However i always got the impression their opinion was that Sabena training was second to none. We are a cut above the rest kinda thing going on..... They didn't seem to trust the guy/girl in the right seat so much.
Not with all of them but the vast majority...........
Didn't like that much..........
However i always got the impression their opinion was that Sabena training was second to none. We are a cut above the rest kinda thing going on..... They didn't seem to trust the guy/girl in the right seat so much.
Not with all of them but the vast majority...........
Didn't like that much..........
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Travelled on this flight - EI DAF 'City of Nykoping'
Conditions - low cloud, rain and crosswind on a bumpy approach.
Landed HARD and FAST and kept on going, straight.
Left wheel smoked.
Ran out of runway.
Emergency evac into atrocious weather, gusting rain from right of runway.
RH engine almost in the mud.
Lucky to be alive.
IMO - we landed too far down a very wet runway in marginal conditions. Flights are nomally landed/taxi-ing when level with terminal/tower, look at the distance on google earth from there to the end of the runway! But what do I know, you tell me?
By the way, RYR "incident" pr contains at least one absolute factual lie.
Conditions - low cloud, rain and crosswind on a bumpy approach.
Landed HARD and FAST and kept on going, straight.
Left wheel smoked.
Ran out of runway.
Emergency evac into atrocious weather, gusting rain from right of runway.
RH engine almost in the mud.
Lucky to be alive.
IMO - we landed too far down a very wet runway in marginal conditions. Flights are nomally landed/taxi-ing when level with terminal/tower, look at the distance on google earth from there to the end of the runway! But what do I know, you tell me?
By the way, RYR "incident" pr contains at least one absolute factual lie.
Last edited by LIMpass; 26th Mar 2008 at 14:33.