Ryanair B738 off runway in Limoges (LFBL/France)

[Cloud Bunny]

I think she fancies you

Yeah, I get that a lot!

[slip and turn]

Damn those extra glasses of wine and hot cross buns ... there must be a hundred fingers poised over the button ... but whats the correct call? .... QDM or QDR

[Bearcat]

what drivel in previous posts

FR...reporting aircraft on ramp being readied for service .

FR...on their web site reporting factually as it is...well done. Leo's takin the cue.

[VONKLUFFEN]

...Maybe?

Not to much rocket science. To many incidents lately is the combination of fear of management ( unstable approaches, no go around when needed etc) probably not enough support on info to new airports, low experience time in the cockpits etc you name it, all typical of a low cost and fast growing airlines where money talks and not safety culture. Pilots are always the last line of defence. Nothing to do with pilots capacity or age to perform.

[Pilot Pete]

Crew possibly land with >15kts tailwind knowing nothing until at the earliest the flare and depending on experience levels maybe not properly recognising the symptoms at all.

Wild, ridiculous speculation I would say. Even if they realised in the flare they had the option to go around.

did not calculate last TWC as they were short finals.

Most trainers would know that Progress Page 2 has the component you mention. No need to try to calculate anything on short final......of course it is recommended for the PM to have Progress Page 2 displayed during approach in RYR isn't it?

PP

[top9un]

pete,

I would think most trainers would also know that aircraft generated spot winds are up to 40 seconds out of date and may bear no relation to the actual surface wind.

[richarjm]

Hey Pete,
It is Ryanair policy that the performance page figures are not to be used as a reason to go around, only winds from the tower.

[vector3]

All PR is good PR says MOL. Guess he's happy now

[Aerostar600A]

Why did they need to 'evacuate' using slides? rather than a less urgent pre-cautionary disembarkation using the front air stair.

[fireflybob]

It is Ryanair policy that the performance page figures are not to be used as a reason to go around, only winds from the tower.

Not quite I think. Tower reported winds must be used for calculation of LDR so for example you are not allowed to justify landing because Progress 2 shows a 5 kt tailwind (say) although the tower are giving a 10 kt tailwind.

On the other hand if you have planned for a 10 kt tailwind (as thats what the tower are reporting) but the ACTUAL wind as displayed in Progress 2 is more than 10kt tail you should not be landing! (Surely thats common sense?)

[A4]

.....most trainers would also know that aircraft generated spot winds are up to 40 seconds out of date and may bear no relation to the actual surface wind.

Really? Are you talking about the PROG 2 Page TWC (sadly lacking on Airbus - but TAS minus GS gives a pretty instant TWC) or the wind arrow/readout on the Nav Display (I assume B738 has this). Why on earth would it be 40 seconds delayed? That's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

It's correct to say that the readout can become "corrupted" in the flare/ground effect but tower winds + the ND readout/arrow should give a pretty good indication as to what i's likely to be on the runway. If the surface wind is straight across but you've got 20 knots+ TWC at 100' RA how ae you going to lose the extra groundspeed. Simply saying "well the tower wind was only 5 knots straight across" doesn't exempt you fom judgement/airmanship! Especially if the runway looks like a mirror cos it's so wet!

A4

[Aerostar600A]

fireflybob,

Dont forget to consider the fact that IRS can and do drift, even with GPS updating! When you suspect an IRS drift, wind data should be treated with caution. Tower reported winds always have priority.

[Bearcat]

firebob, in the stewards equiry your progress page wind is not worth a knats. Say you have drifting IR's, this wind can be off a fair few knots. If the tower is giving a 10 knot tail wind and your box is showing 12 you are totally legal to land and this is where you earn the extra bucks as a capt using ones experience whether to continue or throw it away.

[Fluffy flyer]

08KaQAjQ

08aQAjQ .....number 84 post


I have landed many times on rwy 21 and I have to agree with your post number 84 this rwy is very slippy when its wet.

I agree this rwy needs to be investigated in light of this incident.

[fireflybob]

It's correct to say that the readout can become "corrupted" in the flare/ground effect but tower winds + the ND readout/arrow should give a pretty good indication as to what i's likely to be on the runway. If the surface wind is straight across but you've got 20 knots+ TWC at 100' RA how ae you going to lose the extra groundspeed. Simply saying "well the tower wind was only 5 knots straight across" doesn't exempt you fom judgement/airmanship! Especially if the runway looks like a mirror cos it's so wet!

A4, agree 100% -

Dont forget to consider the fact that IRS can and do drift, even with GPS updating! When you suspect an IRS drift, wind data should be treated with caution. Tower reported winds always have priority.
Today 10:35

Aerostar600A, I am not sure your comment is technically correct. Yes IRS can and does drift but with GPS update is this really going to significantly affect the wind readout? Anecdotally my experience tells me that the wind data on Progress 2 is accurate. But surely the point is that all factors should be taken into account. If you have planned for a 10 kt tail and the wind machine shows a lot more tail at 100 ft I would be carefully evaluating my options!!

[Aerostar600A]

Firefly,

Wind limitations, whether its x-wind, autoland limits etc are all based on tower reported winds only. FMS generated winds are nice to have, but they are not the holy grail....Why are you planning on landing in 10kts tailwinds anyhow??

[fireflybob]

Wind limitations, whether its x-wind, autoland limits etc are all based on tower reported winds only. FMS generated winds are nice to have, but they are not the holy grail....Why are you planning on landing in 10kts tailwinds anyhow??

Yes dear boy, I know that!!

Operators may have to land with tailwind on certain runways because there is no instrument approach on the reciprocal runway and/or the weather (cloud and/or vis) is such that a circling approach is not possible. With certain operations 15 kt tailwinds are permissable for landing.

On a further point, nothwithstanding what an individual company's operations manual may state and the rigours of Performance A, I would suggest that aircraft commanders should take into account ALL available information (including FMC winds) when deciding whether it is safe or not to land (by the way, this comment is NOT referring to this incident since we do not have all the facts) - I am sure the lawyers would have a field day witht this one in the event of a serious accident in this situation.

Hope this helps.

[Aerostar600A]

Thanks old man.....

Happy tailwind landings.

[Pilot Pete]

Maybe I should clarify. If I get a tower reported wind in limits and the FMC tells me (via my F/O calling it) in the last hundred feet that I have a tailwind out of limits I will be going around.....

top9un

I would think most trainers would also know that aircraft generated spot winds are up to 40 seconds out of date and may bear no relation to the actual surface wind.

Could you post the link to the reference in your B737-800 manual that says that please? Mine says, with a picture of Progress Page 2, and I quote

HEADWIND or TAILWIND
Displays the present headwind or tailwind component.

Note the word 'present', which I interpret as meaning 'at that instant'. There is no mention of any limitations or errors.

PP

[Bearcat]

i landed on a 13000ft rwy recently with a twr reported 10kt tail wind ....fmc was telling us it was 15kts......on gate there was significent drift on IR's.

Now Pilot Pete, should I hand in my commanders ticket?

Wood and trees comes to mind......