No more expat pilots in India after June´08?
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Vilas - Your comments are most unfortunate, and if your experience is as you claim you should surely know better.
I train 200hr cadets who come to our airline straight from a top quality training scheme that is very regulated and controlled. Moreover, their initial screening process is very thorough and the candidates we end up with are the best that can be produced with around 200 hours experience. It is, nonetheles, a huge ask to hope these newbie pilots will be good at flying an Airbus with that level of experience. It is universally recognised that these otherwise very good people have one huge weakness, and that is basic handling skills. We accept that initially due to the other qualities they bring, but there is no getting over it - they are significantly less comfortable than experienced pilots in the handling department - particularly during the landing phase. We should not be surprised at that, because if it was easy you could just go down the Job Centre and pick up a few likely lads to do it on the cheap. Like any company who employs inexperienced pilots we apply strict operating limits until they are more used to the environment. To suggest that the Airbus is easier to handle than other aircraft is a nonsense - what is true to say is that the Airbus is very different. It nonetheless requires specific handling techniques which must be learnt quickly to avoid big problems. The now-legendary Lufthansa film shown earlier in the thread is a clear warning to the unwary - mess with the Airbus near the ground in bad weather and it will bite you very badly.
In my company the majority of our pilots have flown other jets. Every single one says they prefer the 737 to an Airbus in gusty winds, because they feel 'more in control'. It took me a long time to get the hang of the Airbus in these extreme conditions, and I am still cautious several thousand of hours later when faced with big winds. In my opinion, a young and inexperienced pilot is vulnerable to making signficant handling errors for a couple of years after finishing training. That is not to knock them in any way, but it is vital to recognise the importance of experience in general, and nearly as importantly, experience on type.
I have no idea what the truth is regarding the situation in India, and I have no doubt that experienced Indian pilots are every bit as good as their Western colleagues. What I do know, however, is that experience is everything. If the Indians decide to fill their cockpits with inexperienced crews for protectionist reasons, it will ultimately come back to haunt them in a big way.
India is a wonderful nation emerging from the third world and making huge strides to catch up the West. As yet, it is still struggling with issues such as endemic corruption. This means decisions that are clear cut in safety terms may be overriden by the application of cash to placate vested interests. We in the West have many times had to learn from countless tragic errors involving our land, sea and air transport systems. Our air transport is now extremely safe, and although not perfect has much to offer interested parties. I hope the Indians will learn from our errors rather than having to face the tragedies we have before puting safety first, second and third.
I train 200hr cadets who come to our airline straight from a top quality training scheme that is very regulated and controlled. Moreover, their initial screening process is very thorough and the candidates we end up with are the best that can be produced with around 200 hours experience. It is, nonetheles, a huge ask to hope these newbie pilots will be good at flying an Airbus with that level of experience. It is universally recognised that these otherwise very good people have one huge weakness, and that is basic handling skills. We accept that initially due to the other qualities they bring, but there is no getting over it - they are significantly less comfortable than experienced pilots in the handling department - particularly during the landing phase. We should not be surprised at that, because if it was easy you could just go down the Job Centre and pick up a few likely lads to do it on the cheap. Like any company who employs inexperienced pilots we apply strict operating limits until they are more used to the environment. To suggest that the Airbus is easier to handle than other aircraft is a nonsense - what is true to say is that the Airbus is very different. It nonetheless requires specific handling techniques which must be learnt quickly to avoid big problems. The now-legendary Lufthansa film shown earlier in the thread is a clear warning to the unwary - mess with the Airbus near the ground in bad weather and it will bite you very badly.
In my company the majority of our pilots have flown other jets. Every single one says they prefer the 737 to an Airbus in gusty winds, because they feel 'more in control'. It took me a long time to get the hang of the Airbus in these extreme conditions, and I am still cautious several thousand of hours later when faced with big winds. In my opinion, a young and inexperienced pilot is vulnerable to making signficant handling errors for a couple of years after finishing training. That is not to knock them in any way, but it is vital to recognise the importance of experience in general, and nearly as importantly, experience on type.
I have no idea what the truth is regarding the situation in India, and I have no doubt that experienced Indian pilots are every bit as good as their Western colleagues. What I do know, however, is that experience is everything. If the Indians decide to fill their cockpits with inexperienced crews for protectionist reasons, it will ultimately come back to haunt them in a big way.
India is a wonderful nation emerging from the third world and making huge strides to catch up the West. As yet, it is still struggling with issues such as endemic corruption. This means decisions that are clear cut in safety terms may be overriden by the application of cash to placate vested interests. We in the West have many times had to learn from countless tragic errors involving our land, sea and air transport systems. Our air transport is now extremely safe, and although not perfect has much to offer interested parties. I hope the Indians will learn from our errors rather than having to face the tragedies we have before puting safety first, second and third.
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India.
NSF,
Very wise words.I am in India training Airbus pilots and I agree totally with your post.
The rationale behind this decision is sound in the long run-however to replace the existing FO pilot base with 250 hour cadets in this environment is frankly absurd by giving immediate notice is blunt and crass.Why not give "advance notice" of say 6 months,12 months.
The manner in which this directive was made reflects just how outof touch with reality the DGCA are-I see absolutley no chance whatsover of them becoming JAA compliant.For anyone who knows the machinations of life here they will understand,the performance to get licensed and the archaic route any hoopeful ATPL must take is mind numbing.
My trainees are keen to learn-but several have nothing except an A320 TR and a new licence-and the monsoon here hasnt even started.And as you state the landing is very challenging for them.
You cannot replace experience and many of these foreign FOs have experience from flying turboprops,twins,flying instructors-theyve been doing it for longer than the newbie local Indian,thats all.
The 320 near the ground in challenging weather is a skill and those skills dont come out of a packet contrary to what the DGCA and the individuals who pushed this decsion clearly believe.
It is a ridiculous decision,ill conceived and delivered without thought,some airlines will park aircraft as a result and it is only a matter oftime until the inevitable will happen.
Madness-and I cannot see it happening without significant damage to the standing of aviation in Indian aviation in every respect.
Very wise words.I am in India training Airbus pilots and I agree totally with your post.
The rationale behind this decision is sound in the long run-however to replace the existing FO pilot base with 250 hour cadets in this environment is frankly absurd by giving immediate notice is blunt and crass.Why not give "advance notice" of say 6 months,12 months.
The manner in which this directive was made reflects just how outof touch with reality the DGCA are-I see absolutley no chance whatsover of them becoming JAA compliant.For anyone who knows the machinations of life here they will understand,the performance to get licensed and the archaic route any hoopeful ATPL must take is mind numbing.
My trainees are keen to learn-but several have nothing except an A320 TR and a new licence-and the monsoon here hasnt even started.And as you state the landing is very challenging for them.
You cannot replace experience and many of these foreign FOs have experience from flying turboprops,twins,flying instructors-theyve been doing it for longer than the newbie local Indian,thats all.
The 320 near the ground in challenging weather is a skill and those skills dont come out of a packet contrary to what the DGCA and the individuals who pushed this decsion clearly believe.
It is a ridiculous decision,ill conceived and delivered without thought,some airlines will park aircraft as a result and it is only a matter oftime until the inevitable will happen.
Madness-and I cannot see it happening without significant damage to the standing of aviation in Indian aviation in every respect.
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Just to have an idea , IAF lost more than 500 military airplanes in the 80-90.
And from what i saw , with indians trainees,during my flight training , back in the US, a big tragedy will happen.
And from what i saw , with indians trainees,during my flight training , back in the US, a big tragedy will happen.
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rduarte,
If we were to go by your statistics then the IAF would have ceased to exist in 1995.A loss of 500 aircraft would have been enough to wipe out the operational fighter aircraft of the IAF.As a word of friendly advice, it is important to have well researched and documented facts before you go on to make a statement.
You would have been more correct if you had said the aircraft attrition rate in the IAF is high.But that claim should also take into account many other factors associated with the Indian military.
The views of Norman & Inspector Clueless are very accurate and I could not agree with them more.I am an Indian and I am proud of it but I would be the first to admit that there are inherent flaws in the system and the biggest of all is this.The policy makers have NEVER been able to come out with a policy that would serve the industry well for the next 25 years.If they were we would have never been in the mess we are today.And this applied to both military and civil aviation.
The best example would be the latest set of regulations by the Powers That Be..I agree that Indian nationals should be given an opportunity but they should be qualified and motivated.If you take todays scenario , you have young foreign pilots with low time who couldn't get into their local carriers , pay for their endorsement and get a job in an Indian carrier..they look at gaining experience here and moving back to wherever they came from...now why should we allow that to happen when you have an Indian national available ???
On the other hand if there is a foreign FO who has 500 hrs on type , he would be asset to an airline and deserves his position...
Now there is another problem in India ...there are foreign FOs who could not get command in their countries due to various reasons and are looking getting their command in India...is that fair...
And through it all the Indian DGCA and the Ministry are not helping either by lowering the standards in terms of educational qualifications and flying hours required for obtaining an Indian CPL...right now there are 1500 Indians looking for jobs...by 2009 there will be about 5000 looking for jobs and the number is growing...it is the responsibility of the DGCA to ensure that standards are maintained and for the Ministry to ensure that time tested policies are established..unfortunately none of that is happening....
Back to your comments on race..I have said it before and I say it again..your race does not make you a good/bad pilot.Through my career I have had the privilege of flying with pilots of various nationalities and back grounds....and I have realised one fundamental truth...a good pilot is made by the quality of training he has obtained and also his personal ability....If you want to get regional I can tell you this as well...in general I have observed that the pilots who have been trained in Europe under the CAA / JAA system have shown a very high standard in all areas...
If we were to go by your statistics then the IAF would have ceased to exist in 1995.A loss of 500 aircraft would have been enough to wipe out the operational fighter aircraft of the IAF.As a word of friendly advice, it is important to have well researched and documented facts before you go on to make a statement.
You would have been more correct if you had said the aircraft attrition rate in the IAF is high.But that claim should also take into account many other factors associated with the Indian military.
The views of Norman & Inspector Clueless are very accurate and I could not agree with them more.I am an Indian and I am proud of it but I would be the first to admit that there are inherent flaws in the system and the biggest of all is this.The policy makers have NEVER been able to come out with a policy that would serve the industry well for the next 25 years.If they were we would have never been in the mess we are today.And this applied to both military and civil aviation.
The best example would be the latest set of regulations by the Powers That Be..I agree that Indian nationals should be given an opportunity but they should be qualified and motivated.If you take todays scenario , you have young foreign pilots with low time who couldn't get into their local carriers , pay for their endorsement and get a job in an Indian carrier..they look at gaining experience here and moving back to wherever they came from...now why should we allow that to happen when you have an Indian national available ???
On the other hand if there is a foreign FO who has 500 hrs on type , he would be asset to an airline and deserves his position...
Now there is another problem in India ...there are foreign FOs who could not get command in their countries due to various reasons and are looking getting their command in India...is that fair...
And through it all the Indian DGCA and the Ministry are not helping either by lowering the standards in terms of educational qualifications and flying hours required for obtaining an Indian CPL...right now there are 1500 Indians looking for jobs...by 2009 there will be about 5000 looking for jobs and the number is growing...it is the responsibility of the DGCA to ensure that standards are maintained and for the Ministry to ensure that time tested policies are established..unfortunately none of that is happening....
Back to your comments on race..I have said it before and I say it again..your race does not make you a good/bad pilot.Through my career I have had the privilege of flying with pilots of various nationalities and back grounds....and I have realised one fundamental truth...a good pilot is made by the quality of training he has obtained and also his personal ability....If you want to get regional I can tell you this as well...in general I have observed that the pilots who have been trained in Europe under the CAA / JAA system have shown a very high standard in all areas...
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I have operated with Indian aircrew in the late 80's. I must say that by and large, the level of professionalism shown by these pilots during their tenure with my airline was nothing short of exemplary. On the same score, the other expats, who were mainly from Oz, were also just as good, give or take a few. Culturally, of course there were many differences that caused a problem or two. All in all, it was an enriching experience, and I did not see any difference in levels of competency between one shade of skin and another, so lets just keep race out of this.
As for airline FOs with 200+ hrs, scary... But aviation is growing at a phenomenal rate in these regions, and there just is no other recourse. But my airline has also been following this practice, with limited ill-effect (unless you count my grey hairs!). On the same score, some of these guys are a lot more help and show a much higher level of competency compared to some highly experienced FOs. What's the word for it, aptitude?
Regarding the termination of services of expat FOs, I believe it is inevitable. Wrong move at short notice, but nonetheless inevitable.
As for airline FOs with 200+ hrs, scary... But aviation is growing at a phenomenal rate in these regions, and there just is no other recourse. But my airline has also been following this practice, with limited ill-effect (unless you count my grey hairs!). On the same score, some of these guys are a lot more help and show a much higher level of competency compared to some highly experienced FOs. What's the word for it, aptitude?
Regarding the termination of services of expat FOs, I believe it is inevitable. Wrong move at short notice, but nonetheless inevitable.
Last edited by standman; 20th Mar 2008 at 15:18. Reason: bad grammar...
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born with wings
Some fresh CPLs going to get in to the business, its not easy walk for them or to feel they are in comfortable zone, as no body will compromise on training and safety.
This abrupt notice is not good (harsh).
It should have been…. those who are joining by June can continue and after June no further induction. Something like that.
Fresh CPL intake
As in India two captains can fly together, but 2 f/o cannot.
So short term cockpits will have lots of flying with two captains (cockpit total experience very high) while the fresh CPL holder meets the ICAO standards. And minimum DGCA requirements laid down by the civil aviation authority.and learn flying.
1. It takes care of many posters in various forums who had dreams about the wx, inexperience, accidents Metals, debris and dead bodies.
(Reflects nothing but negative attitude.SADISTIC ATTITUDE.)
2. it takes care of government duty to provide jobs to the citizens
These CPL candidates were not born with the wings, but INDIAN BY BIRTH.
So it is the duty of the government to provide them work as they have right to work.
Some will be good pilots, some average, some bad and some will get eliminates in training.
Like any where in the world…. Government provides job to the citizens
Citizens pay 40% back to the government. and if these CPL candidates start paying back to the government 40% from two years now……….look how much business government has done just by one order of June 2008 exit.
Inspector clueless the show will go on; no aircraft will be on ground due to crew shortage, there will be more captains coming in from all over the globe. (Only captains in future)
The views of Norman are correct.
Abrupt exit of expat f/o thou sad, but I have feeling that it is good for them as well, because they were living on hopes and promises of the companies (dirty work)
Sky dancer There is no 100% perfect systems, accept good things with iota of bad.
I Think Honkong can give insight on JAA/CAA/ICAO
Because it recently joined ICAO (before JAR & CAA)
This abrupt notice is not good (harsh).
It should have been…. those who are joining by June can continue and after June no further induction. Something like that.
Fresh CPL intake
As in India two captains can fly together, but 2 f/o cannot.
So short term cockpits will have lots of flying with two captains (cockpit total experience very high) while the fresh CPL holder meets the ICAO standards. And minimum DGCA requirements laid down by the civil aviation authority.and learn flying.
1. It takes care of many posters in various forums who had dreams about the wx, inexperience, accidents Metals, debris and dead bodies.
(Reflects nothing but negative attitude.SADISTIC ATTITUDE.)
2. it takes care of government duty to provide jobs to the citizens
These CPL candidates were not born with the wings, but INDIAN BY BIRTH.
So it is the duty of the government to provide them work as they have right to work.
Some will be good pilots, some average, some bad and some will get eliminates in training.
Like any where in the world…. Government provides job to the citizens
Citizens pay 40% back to the government. and if these CPL candidates start paying back to the government 40% from two years now……….look how much business government has done just by one order of June 2008 exit.
Inspector clueless the show will go on; no aircraft will be on ground due to crew shortage, there will be more captains coming in from all over the globe. (Only captains in future)
The views of Norman are correct.
Abrupt exit of expat f/o thou sad, but I have feeling that it is good for them as well, because they were living on hopes and promises of the companies (dirty work)
Sky dancer There is no 100% perfect systems, accept good things with iota of bad.
I Think Honkong can give insight on JAA/CAA/ICAO
Because it recently joined ICAO (before JAR & CAA)
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Wow, I cannot believe it. First sensible post by getsetgo. I guess you took my advice mate and paid a visit to MG Road.
Just minor mistake in your post, no where in the world the authoroties allow 2 FO's to fly for short haul flight. Some countries require that the Captain is allowed to fly from left seat only. Unlike DGCA that allows one way command. Not a very safe practice if you ask me (yepp more experience in the cockpit but more ego as well. You really need great CRM in there for things to go smoothly) but thats only my view and it doesn't count
Just minor mistake in your post, no where in the world the authoroties allow 2 FO's to fly for short haul flight. Some countries require that the Captain is allowed to fly from left seat only. Unlike DGCA that allows one way command. Not a very safe practice if you ask me (yepp more experience in the cockpit but more ego as well. You really need great CRM in there for things to go smoothly) but thats only my view and it doesn't count
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seat
desi pilot
but 2 f/o cannot
that is what i have written
you need at least one captain who can take up the commercial plane. captain can occupy left or right depanding upon his experience but f/o only right seat.am i correct?
but 2 f/o cannot
that is what i have written
you need at least one captain who can take up the commercial plane. captain can occupy left or right depanding upon his experience but f/o only right seat.am i correct?
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It is quite unfortunate that the DGCA has come up with the rule not allowing expat FO's to fly after June'2008. And i also agree with the fact that there are a lot of these FO'S who's livelyhood depends on this Job. However, I am a fresh 250 hr Indian trainee pilot and after having spent 50k USD on my training, i am arranging finances to pay up another 35k USD for my type rating. And as sadistic or mean as this may sound, the news of this new rule from DGCA bought a smile to my face. I guess they should have just chosen a better way to introduce this rule, like may be give the expat FO's a 6 month or a 1 year period.
There are a rising number of unemployed trained Indian Pilots today and a lot of them are my batch mates. The figures, mind you, are catapulting to the top daily. I dont see any reason why a ''DEVELOPING'' country with the 2nd largest population in the world and a booming aviation sector should face a problem like the above.
There are a rising number of unemployed trained Indian Pilots today and a lot of them are my batch mates. The figures, mind you, are catapulting to the top daily. I dont see any reason why a ''DEVELOPING'' country with the 2nd largest population in the world and a booming aviation sector should face a problem like the above.
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People inside the indian airlines say that it is only a recommendation, not a rule, i even know guys doing their sim refresh in April-May... I don´t know what to think about this, i mean, if they do that, at least one airline it´s going to be force to store some of their aircrafts for a long time...not to talk about receiving new ones...and this does not sound smart for the indian development. We are a lot of people who have been waiting for a long time to go to India because of the lack of TRI´s and now we find ourselves with this scary situation... It´s nice if they want to take care of their own pilots, but not this way and it only sounds to me like money talks, at least that´s what we all hope...
Lots of Aussies don't seem to be able to get work with the majors either.
But it certainly ain't (in my view) the responsibility of government to arrange it for them!
But it certainly ain't (in my view) the responsibility of government to arrange it for them!
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certainly not...but the Australian government ensures that people like me don't get a job in an Australian airline....the only time they relaxed the rules was at the time of the dispute....after that it was back to the protectionist regime..its the same story everywhere mate...
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Quick Question
Does the rule apply to ppl with an Overseas Indian Citizenship? I am originally from India, currently doing my flight training in the US but would love to come back to India and work/live there. My passport however is issued by the USA, but I do have an OCI permit which allows me to work and reside in India...does this count? Please advice.
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Aceninja
I guess u'll have to run that by an airline and see if they are hiring you on the basis of ur OCI. Apparently they are apprehensive. I know of someone (an indian) who gave up the chance to get a New Zealand P.R. jUst so that his job was secure in an Indian Airline.
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thnx for the info
I was kinda worried about that. I'm hoping they will treat the OCI as a PR card and let me work. Does anyone else have any info on this? Anyone out there flying on an OCI card?
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I can't believe at the vitriol directed towards the Indian authorities. By no means do I agree with a significant number of 'bulls' decreed by the DGCA, I find this one to be logical. I don't see the US or the EU allowing any non citizens/residents to fly any commercial airliners under their jurisdiction.
Why this animosity against this Indian ruling? It smacks of racism and discrimination. This ruling DOES NOT AFFECT P1's/TRI/TRE's etc. Only FO's. And why not? With the lines at the offices getting longer, can you blame a government for protecting it's citizens' interests. Anyone saying otherwise smacks of hypocrisy.
Indian airlines have been operating for decades with 250 hr wonders and so far have had no catastrophes related directly to the experience or lack thereof of the FO. So I see no logic stating that an accident is waiting to happen.
There is a dire shortage of experienced type rated crew for the left seat, a shortage of FO's there is not. The DGCA is not restriciting the entry of Captains, just first officers. There are plenty of guys and girls waiting to get online with these airlines. Leave 'em be. If the airlines want to hire a 200 hr guy, let them decide that. If market conditions require that then so be it. Ask anyone who go their licenses in the mid 90's about the job situation in India and the opportunites that could have been grabbed in the US /EU but could not be because of labour restrictions. Now that the situation is somewhat favourable for Indians, people are up in arms about the same restrictions being placed on expat FO hiring. Hypocrisy at it's best.
Why this animosity against this Indian ruling? It smacks of racism and discrimination. This ruling DOES NOT AFFECT P1's/TRI/TRE's etc. Only FO's. And why not? With the lines at the offices getting longer, can you blame a government for protecting it's citizens' interests. Anyone saying otherwise smacks of hypocrisy.
Indian airlines have been operating for decades with 250 hr wonders and so far have had no catastrophes related directly to the experience or lack thereof of the FO. So I see no logic stating that an accident is waiting to happen.
There is a dire shortage of experienced type rated crew for the left seat, a shortage of FO's there is not. The DGCA is not restriciting the entry of Captains, just first officers. There are plenty of guys and girls waiting to get online with these airlines. Leave 'em be. If the airlines want to hire a 200 hr guy, let them decide that. If market conditions require that then so be it. Ask anyone who go their licenses in the mid 90's about the job situation in India and the opportunites that could have been grabbed in the US /EU but could not be because of labour restrictions. Now that the situation is somewhat favourable for Indians, people are up in arms about the same restrictions being placed on expat FO hiring. Hypocrisy at it's best.