Discretion or routine extension to FTL's??
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Discretion or routine extension to FTL's??
It seems to me that the UK IT carriers assume and expect the Capt to extend duty to cover routine and entirely predictable delays.Does anyone have personal experience of the result of refusing to use discretion to extend?.Also the third hour which can only be granted "Immediatly prior to the final sector" is taken as granted at the planning stage.Anyone been invited for Tea+Bickies for not using it?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Strange, I haven't used discretion for ages. In my view a well run company should only use it very rarely. IMHO the more discretion is used the more disorganised a company is.
A useful guide for the CAA when giving a company the once over.
A useful guide for the CAA when giving a company the once over.
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If anyone IS invited for tea and biccies for NOT using discretion, they should be writing to their BALPA rep, their FOI Inspector, CHIRP, and their MP.
If a particular route regularly incurs delays, then it will have to be rescheduled. Airlines are not entitled always to plan for the best possible result with Handling delays, ATC slots, late pax, baggage mix-ups, poor routing, etc.
If anyone encounters significant delays down-route, then the Captain, taking all factors into account, particularly the fatigue states of the crew, but mostly SAFETY, should make a decision on whether or not to exercise his discretion to extend the flight duty period.
It is not available to the Airline to question such a decision, unless that be to suggest that perhaps he decided to extend when he should not have done so. End of story.
If a particular route regularly incurs delays, then it will have to be rescheduled. Airlines are not entitled always to plan for the best possible result with Handling delays, ATC slots, late pax, baggage mix-ups, poor routing, etc.
If anyone encounters significant delays down-route, then the Captain, taking all factors into account, particularly the fatigue states of the crew, but mostly SAFETY, should make a decision on whether or not to exercise his discretion to extend the flight duty period.
It is not available to the Airline to question such a decision, unless that be to suggest that perhaps he decided to extend when he should not have done so. End of story.
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sky9,
Are you a "holier than thou" attitude Hamster?
Meanwhile, back in the real world, most crews in most airlines use discretion on a regular basis to keep the program running, within the usual guidelines.
Usually this is so they don't get changed rosters on subsequent days.
Are you a "holier than thou" attitude Hamster?
Meanwhile, back in the real world, most crews in most airlines use discretion on a regular basis to keep the program running, within the usual guidelines.
Usually this is so they don't get changed rosters on subsequent days.
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Minge Coiffeur
Sorry to display yet another holier than thou attitude, dear chap. You said:
And there you have it in your very own words. To use discretion "on a regular basis" for whatever reason is utterly unprofessional and, believe it or not, unsafe as well as potentially unlawful.
When you imply that the primary reason it is allegedly so used is for no more pressing a reason than that it is to avoid subsequent roster changes suggests that either your ops/crew scheduling staff know you well enough to rely on this reason as a coercive tool and/or you are so without comprehension of the spirit and purpose of CAP371 requirements that you should be suspended from flying duty for as long as it takes you to have that spirit and purpose permanently fixed in your mind.
Which is it?
Sorry to display yet another holier than thou attitude, dear chap. You said:
Meanwhile, back in the real world, most crews in most airlines use discretion on a regular basis to keep the program running, within the usual guidelines.
When you imply that the primary reason it is allegedly so used is for no more pressing a reason than that it is to avoid subsequent roster changes suggests that either your ops/crew scheduling staff know you well enough to rely on this reason as a coercive tool and/or you are so without comprehension of the spirit and purpose of CAP371 requirements that you should be suspended from flying duty for as long as it takes you to have that spirit and purpose permanently fixed in your mind.
Which is it?
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I used 2:45 of my discretion one day during summer of 99 (You can figure out which airline from that).
Got together with my crew, said "Are you guys ok to return?" 1 of the F/A's lived in leeds and it would have been a long drive for her to go home after that day. She said she was ok to return, but would need a hotel room, as she would be too tired to drive.
It was agreed, and we returned. About a week later I found out that the Purser had had a letter placed in her file for the hotel room and not controlling her troops. I went ballistic after that. We had done them the favour, and they penalized my purser for it. Went to the trailers and told them that I was unwilling to do discretion for the rest of the summer, untill they removed the letter from the purser's file.
One overnight in Suda later, they removed the letter and realized who was doing who the favor. But it was just another example of their stupidity.
Cheers
Bohica
Got together with my crew, said "Are you guys ok to return?" 1 of the F/A's lived in leeds and it would have been a long drive for her to go home after that day. She said she was ok to return, but would need a hotel room, as she would be too tired to drive.
It was agreed, and we returned. About a week later I found out that the Purser had had a letter placed in her file for the hotel room and not controlling her troops. I went ballistic after that. We had done them the favour, and they penalized my purser for it. Went to the trailers and told them that I was unwilling to do discretion for the rest of the summer, untill they removed the letter from the purser's file.
One overnight in Suda later, they removed the letter and realized who was doing who the favor. But it was just another example of their stupidity.
Cheers
Bohica
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My knowledge of UK legislation is a bit dim now but when I last operated on the UK register a pilot could not exercise his/her discretion until immediately before it was required, i.e. prior to thr LAST sector, then only two hours to get home.
The third hour was available for matters concerning safety only, for example arriving at destination to find it unusable so having to divert and use some of the third hour etc. The third hour required a written report to the CAA.
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: G.Khan ]
The third hour was available for matters concerning safety only, for example arriving at destination to find it unusable so having to divert and use some of the third hour etc. The third hour required a written report to the CAA.
[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: G.Khan ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Tilli
thanks you answered the T**T before I could. Minge Coiffure, don't allow your management to bully you into doing something unsafe. The vast percentage of discretions are caused by poor or unrealistic scheduling. If you are not fit to use your discretion don't do it. If you are worried about getting a bollocking just put a tape recorder in your bag or on the telephone.
If you are fatigued or likely to be, send Crewing an email or a fax telling them so. It is a brave guy who would then ask you to use your discretion or have you for "tea and bickies".
I haven't had to use my discretion for some because in the past we had the same problems as you are having. Because we said NO "they" had to change.
Finally copy your email or fax to chirp
thanks you answered the T**T before I could. Minge Coiffure, don't allow your management to bully you into doing something unsafe. The vast percentage of discretions are caused by poor or unrealistic scheduling. If you are not fit to use your discretion don't do it. If you are worried about getting a bollocking just put a tape recorder in your bag or on the telephone.
If you are fatigued or likely to be, send Crewing an email or a fax telling them so. It is a brave guy who would then ask you to use your discretion or have you for "tea and bickies".
I haven't had to use my discretion for some because in the past we had the same problems as you are having. Because we said NO "they" had to change.
Finally copy your email or fax to chirp
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Anyone exercising discretion more than once-in-a-while has lost sight of the law on this matter. If the operation has fallen over to the extent FTL becomes an issue then by all means use it if the circumstances are appropriate.
But to suggest we should be doing this on a regular basis is madness. Name that company.
Unfortunately discretion reports of 0-2 hours do not routinely go to the CAA it is only use of the 3rd hour that must be reported within 14? days. The other reports only get looked at on a visit to the company by their FOI.
Shame really perhaps all DR's should go directly to the CAA - But there I am thinking they are there to protect our interests and oversee a safe operation. Ho Hum
But to suggest we should be doing this on a regular basis is madness. Name that company.
Unfortunately discretion reports of 0-2 hours do not routinely go to the CAA it is only use of the 3rd hour that must be reported within 14? days. The other reports only get looked at on a visit to the company by their FOI.
Shame really perhaps all DR's should go directly to the CAA - But there I am thinking they are there to protect our interests and oversee a safe operation. Ho Hum
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Tili,
Dont make me laugh. Whoever heard of anyone in this cut and thrust modern world paying too much attention to the "spirit" of CAP 371. They work us to the max letter of the law. Minge has it right about most companies.nullmost
Is this forum patrolled by Hamsters on the lookout for lesser mortals who work for normal companies???!!
Dont make me laugh. Whoever heard of anyone in this cut and thrust modern world paying too much attention to the "spirit" of CAP 371. They work us to the max letter of the law. Minge has it right about most companies.nullmost
Is this forum patrolled by Hamsters on the lookout for lesser mortals who work for normal companies???!!
By "Hamsters" I presume you mean those of us who were fortunate enough to be trained at that seat of excellence, the College of Air Training, Hamble - ah, yes, those were the days!
Well let me put my hand up and plead that I was so trained! However, I have spent circa 15 years with the charter airlines so please don't assume that all of us have spent all our years with the "corporations".
Since when has where you have done your training had anything to do with FTL etc?!
Discretion means precisely that DISCRETION and should NORMALLY be used where "circumstances warrant such action". If discretion is being applied on a regular basis with a particular company then need one say more? One presumes the CAA would act in the case?
There are many very skilled aviators who have been trained at many different establishments and we all have a valuable contribution to make but us "hamsters" went to Hamble because we wanted to be professional airline pilots and that's what we were trained to be!
Well let me put my hand up and plead that I was so trained! However, I have spent circa 15 years with the charter airlines so please don't assume that all of us have spent all our years with the "corporations".
Since when has where you have done your training had anything to do with FTL etc?!
Discretion means precisely that DISCRETION and should NORMALLY be used where "circumstances warrant such action". If discretion is being applied on a regular basis with a particular company then need one say more? One presumes the CAA would act in the case?
There are many very skilled aviators who have been trained at many different establishments and we all have a valuable contribution to make but us "hamsters" went to Hamble because we wanted to be professional airline pilots and that's what we were trained to be!
Thrush, I'm very confused by your assesment of a company that always uses discretion as "Normal" and your assessment of yourself as a "lesser mortal". Perhaps you should stop taking things personally and stick to the FTL's.
[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: BusyB ]
[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: BusyB ]
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Thrush
While laughing, you might like to think about this, dear chap. You said:
You clearly do not even understand the true nature of CAP371. It is certainly not "the max letter of the law". In fact, of itself it does not represent the law at all. I will not go any further by way of explanation here for fear of boring the sad, cynical, likes of you. But, when you have finished laughing, you might like to put your nose to the grindstone and find out where the law is on this issue. In that way, you may then enlighten us all with your newly acquired skill. 
While laughing, you might like to think about this, dear chap. You said:
Tili,
Dont make me laugh. Whoever heard of anyone in this cut and thrust modern world paying too much attention to the "spirit" of CAP 371. They work us to the max letter of the law.
Dont make me laugh. Whoever heard of anyone in this cut and thrust modern world paying too much attention to the "spirit" of CAP 371. They work us to the max letter of the law.
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A lot of crews shy away from using the last 3rd hour as they have to fill in a report for the CAA. This is mainly due to the fact they can't fill in the form properly, regularly get the max allowable FDP wrong, don't re-factor when an extra sector is undertaken thus resulting in 3 hr + breaches blah de blah. As for Florida 2 + discretion there's no chance!
And probably 50% of sinners are the Training Captains...
And probably 50% of sinners are the Training Captains...
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Correct, Dr.C, it is.
Some airlines claim that they are not "planning" for use of Discretion, and point to the fact that half-hour turnrounds are entirely feasible, that sector times are sensible, ignoring, for example, the experience that tells you that at certain times of the year you will always get strong headwinds on this sector, that you invariably get poor slots on that route, and that there are baggage loading difficulties at the other destination resulting in half-hour turnrounds being impossible in fact as opposed to the theory.
Airlines are perfectly entitled to plan for the possible on a new route. However, experience must later be taken into account. The use of Captain's Discretion is only available to cover the unforeseen, and only when the crew are, taking all factors into account, able safely to continue the duty.
Any airline that plans (or relies) upon use of Captain's Discretion is planning on a duty that would be illegal in any other circumstances. Any airline that plans on Discretion is an airline that is incapable of planning properly, and is an airline that is inherently unsafe.
Some airlines claim that they are not "planning" for use of Discretion, and point to the fact that half-hour turnrounds are entirely feasible, that sector times are sensible, ignoring, for example, the experience that tells you that at certain times of the year you will always get strong headwinds on this sector, that you invariably get poor slots on that route, and that there are baggage loading difficulties at the other destination resulting in half-hour turnrounds being impossible in fact as opposed to the theory.
Airlines are perfectly entitled to plan for the possible on a new route. However, experience must later be taken into account. The use of Captain's Discretion is only available to cover the unforeseen, and only when the crew are, taking all factors into account, able safely to continue the duty.
Any airline that plans (or relies) upon use of Captain's Discretion is planning on a duty that would be illegal in any other circumstances. Any airline that plans on Discretion is an airline that is incapable of planning properly, and is an airline that is inherently unsafe.
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We used to do MAN-BJL-MAN (Banjul, Gambia) which is 6 hours each way. Crewing used to roster us into discretion as a matter of course, until the CAA seen what was going on and said "hang on a minute, discretion isnt to be used like that"
The airline werent prepared to night stop crew in Banjul - who can blame them - so we now position crew on the aircraft and swap down route. (Dont forget the mozzy repellant)
The airline werent prepared to night stop crew in Banjul - who can blame them - so we now position crew on the aircraft and swap down route. (Dont forget the mozzy repellant)
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Seems to be two worlds apart here.(Charters and scheduled)Being of the flying shellsuit camp may I describe a not untypical day in the crew room during pre-flight.
Crew reports for night Tenerife when scheduled boys are sipping Horlicks and donning PJ's and slippers.Dispatcher announces inbound is running 30 minutes late.Look at flight plans-Scheduled block time=flight time.Told slot is about 2hours after inbound on chocks.Work out if we can do it in hours.Can't.Apply discretion .Go.
We then have to explain to the crew that we "Are not into discretion untill we are half way home so we are NOT dispatching into discretion".Eighty minute turnaround down route plus a late slot puts us into the third hour.Go.Give crew the choice of landing in Lisbon then hanging around for a flight plus deadheading etc or continuing home and getting to beds.Continue.Land at base 2.5 hours into discretion.
Have worked for several UK charters and thats the way it works.
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]
Crew reports for night Tenerife when scheduled boys are sipping Horlicks and donning PJ's and slippers.Dispatcher announces inbound is running 30 minutes late.Look at flight plans-Scheduled block time=flight time.Told slot is about 2hours after inbound on chocks.Work out if we can do it in hours.Can't.Apply discretion .Go.
We then have to explain to the crew that we "Are not into discretion untill we are half way home so we are NOT dispatching into discretion".Eighty minute turnaround down route plus a late slot puts us into the third hour.Go.Give crew the choice of landing in Lisbon then hanging around for a flight plus deadheading etc or continuing home and getting to beds.Continue.Land at base 2.5 hours into discretion.
Have worked for several UK charters and thats the way it works.
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Yes, but hang on HSL.
CAP371 says
1.3 A crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require him to fly if either has a reason to believe that he is suffering, or is likely to sufferer while flying from such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
2.2 Planned schedules must allow for flights to be completed within the maximum permitted flying duty period. The authority when assessing the planning of a schedule will take into account the time allowed for pre-flight duties, taxying, the flight and turnround times.
If you are going 2.5 hrs into discretion the CAA must know about it. If you are going regularly into the 2 hrs tell the CAA about it. The SRG does have a web site.
What I cannot understand is how your night Tenerife is going into discretion unless it departs after 2159. Prior to that time you have 11.15 hrs duty and a Tenerife out of the middle of the UK should take about 8.45. Add 2hrs to that for checkin and turnround which allows 30 mins slack. Loose that with the delay and you still have to do a 3 hr turnround in TFS to go 2hrs into discretion.
At the end of the day, If you cannot comply with either CAP 371 1.3 & 2.2 don't do it.
CAP371 says
1.3 A crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require him to fly if either has a reason to believe that he is suffering, or is likely to sufferer while flying from such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
2.2 Planned schedules must allow for flights to be completed within the maximum permitted flying duty period. The authority when assessing the planning of a schedule will take into account the time allowed for pre-flight duties, taxying, the flight and turnround times.
If you are going 2.5 hrs into discretion the CAA must know about it. If you are going regularly into the 2 hrs tell the CAA about it. The SRG does have a web site.
What I cannot understand is how your night Tenerife is going into discretion unless it departs after 2159. Prior to that time you have 11.15 hrs duty and a Tenerife out of the middle of the UK should take about 8.45. Add 2hrs to that for checkin and turnround which allows 30 mins slack. Loose that with the delay and you still have to do a 3 hr turnround in TFS to go 2hrs into discretion.
At the end of the day, If you cannot comply with either CAP 371 1.3 & 2.2 don't do it.
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Work out if we can do it in hours.Can't.Apply discretion .Go.
...
"Are not into discretion untill we are half way home so we are NOT dispatching into discretion"
...
"Are not into discretion untill we are half way home so we are NOT dispatching into discretion"
As Sky9 says, if you can't do it within the terms of CAP 371, don't do it. Have you thought exactly who would be the one to be hung out to dry should anything go wrong? I can just see an Operations Manager saying "...that's not what we rostered - they said they weren't fatigued, and elected to continue..."
I say again - it's NOT legal - DON'T DO IT.