GB Co-pilot dies during plane flight
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Single Pilot
The handling problem under these circumstances probably does warrant some training which, as far as I recall, was never addressed in any sim session.
25 years ago I was a first officer with only about 50 hours on type when the captain keeled over. He was a hefty and opinionated old timer and steadfastly refused to wear his shoulder harness en route.
By great good fortune, the senior FA happened to be standing on the flight deck and was able to pull him back clear of the yoke (she was a well built girl and I often theorised that it was her proximity that caused him to collapse!).
We assumed he had had a heart attack.
With about 30 minutes to run I could see no suitable airport with any appropriate facilities for a diversion so we continued and had the ambulance and crew standing by.
The aircraft was not an especially complex one but I do remember being as busy as a one-armed paper hangar as we descended into a busy terminal area. A bit of practice here might have come in handy as most of my flying previously had been with two and three man crews.
Happily, the heart attack proved to have been relatively minor and he recovered.
My deepest sympathies go out to Mike Warren's family - and also to his captain for whom it must have been a deeply upsetting experience.
25 years ago I was a first officer with only about 50 hours on type when the captain keeled over. He was a hefty and opinionated old timer and steadfastly refused to wear his shoulder harness en route.
By great good fortune, the senior FA happened to be standing on the flight deck and was able to pull him back clear of the yoke (she was a well built girl and I often theorised that it was her proximity that caused him to collapse!).
We assumed he had had a heart attack.
With about 30 minutes to run I could see no suitable airport with any appropriate facilities for a diversion so we continued and had the ambulance and crew standing by.
The aircraft was not an especially complex one but I do remember being as busy as a one-armed paper hangar as we descended into a busy terminal area. A bit of practice here might have come in handy as most of my flying previously had been with two and three man crews.
Happily, the heart attack proved to have been relatively minor and he recovered.
My deepest sympathies go out to Mike Warren's family - and also to his captain for whom it must have been a deeply upsetting experience.
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I doubt that his family agree with your sentiments........
What I was trying to do, and obviously failed at, was to point out that, while this is a strongly negative event, life goes on. There is a small bright(er) point, in the metaphorical sea of gloom of this event.
Until the medical people have done their thing, we cannot learn from this occurrence, as we don't know what caused it, we can speculate, certainly, but none of us can speak from a position of authority on the issue.
While I would like to apologize for any offense my remarks caused the family and friends of this man, I see no point in placating a corpse, and rather a lot more in attempting to celebrate the life of the man that was. This was what, in my own bumbling way, what I was trying to achieve. To acknowledge the life, rather than the death, of a man, I personally never knew, but suspect that I wish I had
I will now bow out of this conversation
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My airline, (the one that just bought his) does indeed do incapacitation training, certainly for F/Os. In fact my last time in the sim I had an incapacitation just after flaps up and the trainer then failed an engine, in CAT III conditions as well, so a single pilot, single engine, cat III autoland from the right seat.
No problem though as the training here is excellent.
My condolences go to his family, friends and colleagues, especially the ones on the flight with him. A very traumatic time for them as well.
An expression immediately springs to mind,
"There, but for the grace of God, go I".
A sad day.
No problem though as the training here is excellent.
My condolences go to his family, friends and colleagues, especially the ones on the flight with him. A very traumatic time for them as well.
An expression immediately springs to mind,
"There, but for the grace of God, go I".
A sad day.
Last edited by Wanabee,Gunnabee,Am; 27th Feb 2008 at 07:30.
Lazy George,
Just to answer your question from a more recent perspective than 25 years ago, at the airlines I have flown for crews are given initial and recurrent training in incapacitation in the simulator. At two of them we also carried out "simulated" incapacitation (from the cruise to the end of the landing run) during line training - whilst not all airlines do the latter at least it gives you the confidence of knowing that you can actually get it back on the ground on your own if needs be, albeit without a medical emergency going on in the seat next to you.
Just to answer your question from a more recent perspective than 25 years ago, at the airlines I have flown for crews are given initial and recurrent training in incapacitation in the simulator. At two of them we also carried out "simulated" incapacitation (from the cruise to the end of the landing run) during line training - whilst not all airlines do the latter at least it gives you the confidence of knowing that you can actually get it back on the ground on your own if needs be, albeit without a medical emergency going on in the seat next to you.
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No I don't think it's poor taste at all, but the family do deserve respect.
If you had a choice of passing away in a car accident, dreaded illness, or doing something that you dearly love, you would choose the latter every time.
May he rest in peace and may he already be spreading his wings in the wide blue yonder!
If you had a choice of passing away in a car accident, dreaded illness, or doing something that you dearly love, you would choose the latter every time.
May he rest in peace and may he already be spreading his wings in the wide blue yonder!
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Pilot's incapacitation
Quote:
"A bit of practice here might have come in handy as most of my flying previously had been with two and three man crews."
In every type conversion I've done in the last 15 years there was one simulator detail dealing with pilot's incapacitation. Both pilots had to demonstrate a landing with the other pilot "failed". But still, as with every scenario you go through in the sim, everyone hopes it will never happen in real life.
"A bit of practice here might have come in handy as most of my flying previously had been with two and three man crews."
In every type conversion I've done in the last 15 years there was one simulator detail dealing with pilot's incapacitation. Both pilots had to demonstrate a landing with the other pilot "failed". But still, as with every scenario you go through in the sim, everyone hopes it will never happen in real life.
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69 Flight. To their credit, the company did subsequently introduce incapacitation training but more importantly, insistence on the wearing of full harness en route.
It's now 15 years since I retired and CRM has become a much more important feature of sim training I suspect.
It's now 15 years since I retired and CRM has become a much more important feature of sim training I suspect.
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Hi lazy
If the other guy / gal pops it in flight such as this very tragic incident (and I hope it never happens again ) then you make sure the person is strapped in a reclined position in his seat after all effots have been made to revive him / her declare a mayday and land asap .
If the other guy / gal pops it in flight such as this very tragic incident (and I hope it never happens again ) then you make sure the person is strapped in a reclined position in his seat after all effots have been made to revive him / her declare a mayday and land asap .
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For the company I am in we had to practice from ToD to landing a simulated one man crew. For any incapacitation we always call a Mayday.
I hope that his family try to understand that he will always be watching them and protecting them.
RIP.
259
I hope that his family try to understand that he will always be watching them and protecting them.
RIP.
259
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For the company I am in we had to practice from ToD to landing a simulated one man crew. For any incapacitation we always call a Mayday.
I hope that his family try to understand that he will always be watching them and protecting them.
RIP.
259
I hope that his family try to understand that he will always be watching them and protecting them.
RIP.
259
Paxing All Over The World
what a way to go ! ( doing what you love)
( poor taste? )
Yes, very bad taste indeed.
( poor taste? )
Yes, very bad taste indeed.
I should mention that I do highly specialist work with bereaved people.
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God Bless.
I was horrified to see a photo in the Singapore Straits times of the aircraft just after it had pulled onto the stand obviously focused on the flight deck. We criticise the Brit press but thankfully they would never publish a pic like that.
Prayers and thoughts to the family
Andy
I was horrified to see a photo in the Singapore Straits times of the aircraft just after it had pulled onto the stand obviously focused on the flight deck. We criticise the Brit press but thankfully they would never publish a pic like that.
Prayers and thoughts to the family
Andy
Paxing All Over The World
Gunman returns
Where have you been? That's exactly the kind of pic they want. They will always 'publish and be dammed'.
We criticise the Brit press but thankfully they would never publish a pic like that.
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R.I.P to the F/O. Seems quite young to die this way.
Apparently not so totally uncommon, a pilot dying enroute. Perhaps more sim training is needed taking in consideration such an event.
Continental pilot dies:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245318,00.html
=================
25 Jul Denpasar Bali A330-300 of Garuda Flt 722 Captain died of a heart attack during takeoff. The F/O aborted safely 1 fatal Bali to Adelaide South Australia
http://info.accessintel.com/cgi/catalog/sample?ASW
=====================================
CAL Captain dies :
http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/author_...=29&pre_no=153
NO doubt there are other incidents as well .
Apparently not so totally uncommon, a pilot dying enroute. Perhaps more sim training is needed taking in consideration such an event.
Continental pilot dies:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245318,00.html
=================
25 Jul Denpasar Bali A330-300 of Garuda Flt 722 Captain died of a heart attack during takeoff. The F/O aborted safely 1 fatal Bali to Adelaide South Australia
http://info.accessintel.com/cgi/catalog/sample?ASW
=====================================
CAL Captain dies :
http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/author_...=29&pre_no=153
NO doubt there are other incidents as well .
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O'Neill No6
I too saw the awful photograph in The Singapore Straits Times of this poor man following the diversion to Istanbul. I was flying at the time in the very region that this tragedy occured. I must admit I welled up with emotion on seeing the image and taking in what I was seeing! Then I felt revulsion that someone had made the decision to put this on the first page to sell more newspapers. Respect for human life is not as high a priority there in Singapore it would seem.
I wonder whether the Singaporean people taking in the picture, and the associated report in The Straits Times realise that their national airline give very little training in simulated incapacitation. Almost nothing, and in my opinion and experience the airline's simulator training is generally lacking in imagination.
I vaguely knew this man (in the RAF) and my thoughts are with his family and friends and colleagues, you must be devastated. I hope you don't ever have to see that image.
O'Neill 6
I wonder whether the Singaporean people taking in the picture, and the associated report in The Straits Times realise that their national airline give very little training in simulated incapacitation. Almost nothing, and in my opinion and experience the airline's simulator training is generally lacking in imagination.
I vaguely knew this man (in the RAF) and my thoughts are with his family and friends and colleagues, you must be devastated. I hope you don't ever have to see that image.
O'Neill 6
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Agreed O'Neill NO6, You would have thought the 'Singaporians' would have used some respect to Mr warren.
They may be the NO1 Airline, But it could even happen on an SIA flight - no one is immune from death.
They may be the NO1 Airline, But it could even happen on an SIA flight - no one is immune from death.