CRJ crash in Yerevan
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kinda of agree with the above...after de icing i like to use icp speeds and a nice slow rotation esp in sh@tty wx.
btw is there a link where bombardier discuss icing conditions and its implications.
btw is there a link where bombardier discuss icing conditions and its implications.
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Crj/cl600/1/4 & Glx
Had a customer looking at a 604 & GLX, now looking at a DA2000x & 7X, he's not happy with the incidents as is his C/P. Sad really, nice acft, bad SOPs being applied. The BHX situ proved this!
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Had a customer looking at a 604 & GLX, now looking at a DA2000x & 7X, he's not happy with the incidents as is his C/P.
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Well that is a bit extreme. Air Canada has a fleet of those that perform thousands of flights per week the harshest of weather and they never lost any due to icing: because the crews are trained and made aware of the CRJ's weakness about wing contamination and never take off with any unless fully de-iced.
See the TSB report at
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...0011_index.asp
Beech
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Minorite
I did say "bad SOPs being applied" enough is published re 'Cold WX/Winter Ops' in the industry media every year for this not to be a 'we didn't know 'bout that' scenario.
The mainly BIZAV/Regional Ops publications (B&CA, AIN, BART etc carry specific articles, let alone all the OEM/CAA/Associations (IBAC/NBAA/NATA/IATA/RAA/EBAA et al) publications/manuals.
The mainly BIZAV/Regional Ops publications (B&CA, AIN, BART etc carry specific articles, let alone all the OEM/CAA/Associations (IBAC/NBAA/NATA/IATA/RAA/EBAA et al) publications/manuals.
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And my company just authorized takeoff in ice pellet conditions and heavy snow as well neither of which have holdover times- all with a little help from the FAA who approved it. I think I'll reference this thread when they ask my why I didn't go.
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related: Cimber Air nearly lost CRJ100LR OY-RJC during take-off at Olso 31jan08. Crew experienced uncommanded roll after / during rotation causing excessive bank angle. The stick shaker and pushed were acitaved, crew recovered and landed safely. FDR readout has estabished the crew used 6 to 7 degrees rate of rotation... Yes, it was snowy and cold, they did de-ice but (forgot?) to switch wing anti ice on (on the runway). Bombardier has issued All Operator Message stressing do not use excessive rate of rotation.
The obvious concern is ice or snow contamination on the wing, but don’t forget that other types of contaminant might cause similar problems.
Some aircraft have operating limitations / special procedures after de/anti- icing, e.g. ATR and Saab 2000; these aircraft also have ‘aft loaded’ – reflex tail/wing sections similar to the CRJ.
In these aircraft, the problem appears to originate with anti-icing fluids that are slow to shear form the tail plane / wing surface and change the aerodynamic effects of the controls via the control surface / wing slots. The fluid is the contaminant.
IIRC the problem increases with over application of thickened fluids, i.e. more fluid is not better.
Some aircraft have operating limitations / special procedures after de/anti- icing, e.g. ATR and Saab 2000; these aircraft also have ‘aft loaded’ – reflex tail/wing sections similar to the CRJ.
In these aircraft, the problem appears to originate with anti-icing fluids that are slow to shear form the tail plane / wing surface and change the aerodynamic effects of the controls via the control surface / wing slots. The fluid is the contaminant.
IIRC the problem increases with over application of thickened fluids, i.e. more fluid is not better.
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Thickened Fluid Flow-off
Unfortunately this has again to do with training !
Most pilots do not understand than in frost conditions in most airports worldwide the use of a T1 fluid would give enough hold-over-time. They oder thickened fluids all over.
Had last week the case that several pilots ordered a T1 100%, which in normal cases (except in pre-diluted condition) should not be sprayed at all and may cause a safety risk due to bad aerodynamics.
A study (qustioning pilots) performed by several organisations 3 years ago in Europe showed that 80% had no winter ops training or it had bene more than 5 years back.
And reading a lot here about higher rotation speeds or more aggressive take off rates: It doe snot work in all cases and can be really dangerous.
Most pilots do not understand than in frost conditions in most airports worldwide the use of a T1 fluid would give enough hold-over-time. They oder thickened fluids all over.
Had last week the case that several pilots ordered a T1 100%, which in normal cases (except in pre-diluted condition) should not be sprayed at all and may cause a safety risk due to bad aerodynamics.
A study (qustioning pilots) performed by several organisations 3 years ago in Europe showed that 80% had no winter ops training or it had bene more than 5 years back.
And reading a lot here about higher rotation speeds or more aggressive take off rates: It doe snot work in all cases and can be really dangerous.
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The comparison with the TU-154
is valid for the Belavia crew.
I am doing a lot of training in the area of the former USSR and you can thrust me, this is a big problem to get them an understanding for a supercritical wing.
And for US or European crews: How many of them really received a complete, appropriate and annual refreshed winter ops training ?
I am doing a lot of training in the area of the former USSR and you can thrust me, this is a big problem to get them an understanding for a supercritical wing.
And for US or European crews: How many of them really received a complete, appropriate and annual refreshed winter ops training ?
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Had last week the case that several pilots ordered a T1 100%, which in normal cases (except in pre-diluted condition) should not be sprayed at all and may cause a safety risk due to bad aerodynamics.
...and if i'm bold enough to try to explain why, all hell breaks loose...
"What? A mere mortal challenging the wisdom of a pilot wearing four stripes??? Have this man beheaded at dawn!"
Still have my head attached after all these years though, so i guess they learn something, one at the time....
They're not all bad of course... I've even met some who were looking to learn more about de/anti-icing, for their own safety!
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And for US or European crews: How many of them really received a complete, appropriate and annual refreshed winter ops training
In and around his/her aircraft or somewhere else?
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http://www.macleans.ca/world/wire/ar...ntent=w021455A
Is this an Alberto Gonzales use of "I don't recall" or does BBD have reason to think the incidents cited above are different... 
Belavia acquired the nine-year-old aircraft last February. More than 1,000 of the aircraft have been delivered since they went into service in the early 1990s, said Bombardier spokesman Marc Duchesne.
"The Bombardier team is on its way to give a hand to the local investigation," Duchesne said in an interview. "But for now it's impossible for us to say anything on the probable cause because the investigation is ongoing."
"I don't recall any similar events with this aircraft," he added.
"The Bombardier team is on its way to give a hand to the local investigation," Duchesne said in an interview. "But for now it's impossible for us to say anything on the probable cause because the investigation is ongoing."
"I don't recall any similar events with this aircraft," he added.
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Thousands of CRJs takeoff in the United States every week in icing conditions. They don't seem to be falling out of the sky.
Is there something missing here?
Apparently not. But, maybe it's easier to blame the manufacturer and somehow manage to connect this type of incident with shoddy maintenance on a Dash 8 fleet?
C'mon gents, how about some substance???
Is there something missing here?
Apparently not. But, maybe it's easier to blame the manufacturer and somehow manage to connect this type of incident with shoddy maintenance on a Dash 8 fleet?
C'mon gents, how about some substance???
While the CRJ/Challenger series does seem to have a bad record with icing accidents. Need comparative data, not anecdotes, a couple of things:
A wing cleaned of all snow or ice contaminents is required for ANY airplane, there is no room for playing here. Yes, some planes may tolerate contamination better, but you're still being a test pilot and gambling with your lives, PERIOD.
I recently transited PANC, snow was falling and visibility was about RVR 4000, viz of 3/4 but very cold, -14C (the only way of judging snowfall rates for holdover times, forget SN, SN- and SN+. If viz is less than RVR 2000 or 3/8 of SM, think hard about cocktail hour) Anyway, deiced, holdover time with Type 4 predicted at 15 to 20 minutes, IIRC. Off within the time, at destination, the wing that was treated first had small amounts of telltale ice. Some streaks of ice on the upper surface and small icicles aft of the heated leading edge on the lower surface. Picture book stuff, we had just about maximized the holdover time under the actual conditions. Type II deice and Type IV anti-ice, btw
While some extra speed is not bad, it is NOT protection against an contaminated wing. If it won't fly, more speed will just increase the roll rate to the contaminated side. Yes, rotation rates of 6 degrees/second are excessive, uncalled for and not the way training is done. Or shouldn't be anyway. A normal rate of 2-3 degrees/second is correct. On two engines, the speed will take care of itself. On a 604, you will lift-off at V2+ at that rotation rate.
A clean wing is a happy wing---Piper Cub or A380 and everything in between!
GF
A wing cleaned of all snow or ice contaminents is required for ANY airplane, there is no room for playing here. Yes, some planes may tolerate contamination better, but you're still being a test pilot and gambling with your lives, PERIOD.
I recently transited PANC, snow was falling and visibility was about RVR 4000, viz of 3/4 but very cold, -14C (the only way of judging snowfall rates for holdover times, forget SN, SN- and SN+. If viz is less than RVR 2000 or 3/8 of SM, think hard about cocktail hour) Anyway, deiced, holdover time with Type 4 predicted at 15 to 20 minutes, IIRC. Off within the time, at destination, the wing that was treated first had small amounts of telltale ice. Some streaks of ice on the upper surface and small icicles aft of the heated leading edge on the lower surface. Picture book stuff, we had just about maximized the holdover time under the actual conditions. Type II deice and Type IV anti-ice, btw
While some extra speed is not bad, it is NOT protection against an contaminated wing. If it won't fly, more speed will just increase the roll rate to the contaminated side. Yes, rotation rates of 6 degrees/second are excessive, uncalled for and not the way training is done. Or shouldn't be anyway. A normal rate of 2-3 degrees/second is correct. On two engines, the speed will take care of itself. On a 604, you will lift-off at V2+ at that rotation rate.
A clean wing is a happy wing---Piper Cub or A380 and everything in between!
GF
