BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
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Lost
BA pilots are more than aware that conditions on final can vary. That is why we set an appropriate spped (ref +5,10 or 15). Approach power is set for these conditions initially but then has to react (or you do) appropriately.
The 1000 and 500' stable checks are to ensure you are not in a rushed approach situation.
If you are at 1000' you consider a G/A, if you are not stable at 500 you must G/A.
BA pilots are more than aware that conditions on final can vary. That is why we set an appropriate spped (ref +5,10 or 15). Approach power is set for these conditions initially but then has to react (or you do) appropriately.
The 1000 and 500' stable checks are to ensure you are not in a rushed approach situation.
If you are at 1000' you consider a G/A, if you are not stable at 500 you must G/A.
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Filtering components are no more reliable than any other electronics. They can and do fail.
Shielding can be damaged, left off or left unconnected after maintenance.
Shielding can be damaged, left off or left unconnected after maintenance.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307849
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It is going to be interesting to see the FINAL accident investigation report. There is going to be a lot of 'politicing' going on behind the scenes with this one.
Great job to the flight and cabin crew.
Great job to the flight and cabin crew.
Last edited by Seggy; 19th Jan 2008 at 17:35. Reason: typo
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I say again.......the right engine fan blades are plainly visible and still intact. This means the engine was not delivering power when the aircraft and both nacelles hit the ground. Even at idle power one would expect to see the blades stripped by the sudden deformation of the nacelle, such as is plainly evident in the left engine. This suggests the engine may have run down between 600 feet and impact.
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In normal ops (CAT 1) the handover of control is at 1000' or lower, but nothing stops you taking it before if visual.
You can then leave the A/P and A/T in until aircraft limits which vary by type.
The A/T can be left in until the flare on most types but some BA fleets leave it in throughout I believe and an SOP. I don't fly the 777 so I'm not sure what their SOP is.
Flap 20 may well be the eng out flap. They didn't have an engine out for single engine ops. I'm told the flaps were set for a flap 30 landing but were moved last minute to 25 as the position of impact clearly would not be 27L
You can then leave the A/P and A/T in until aircraft limits which vary by type.
The A/T can be left in until the flare on most types but some BA fleets leave it in throughout I believe and an SOP. I don't fly the 777 so I'm not sure what their SOP is.
Flap 20 may well be the eng out flap. They didn't have an engine out for single engine ops. I'm told the flaps were set for a flap 30 landing but were moved last minute to 25 as the position of impact clearly would not be 27L
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787FOCAL
Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A link has already been provided to an example where TCAS error's were experienced.
Although I haven't experienced anything myself I do have colleagues who have.
The biggest problem is isolating the exact cause. Often the person using the personal electronic device is never found. Their seating position and type of device used in combination can sometime cause a problem where other times nothing would occur. Even the frequencies that the aircrafts radios and nav-aids are tuned to can influence whether the PED has an effect on the flight.
Well all I can say is out of hundreds of flights I have never seen any of it cause any problems on 100s of different aircraft.
Although I haven't experienced anything myself I do have colleagues who have.
The biggest problem is isolating the exact cause. Often the person using the personal electronic device is never found. Their seating position and type of device used in combination can sometime cause a problem where other times nothing would occur. Even the frequencies that the aircrafts radios and nav-aids are tuned to can influence whether the PED has an effect on the flight.
Controversial, moi?
One of my sources also tells me that the Captain quite instictively selected flap to 25 to reduce the drag.
I read this thread for entertainment value. I have never read so much utter rubbish on one thread on Prune, ever.
In normal ops (CAT 1) the handover of control is at 1000' or lower, but nothing stops you taking it before if visual.
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Best flap setting
Although one does what one must in an emergency, I doubt the statement's veracity. It just doesn't make sense given the loss of lift and the increase in rate-of-descent at that stage of the approach, (last 400' or so) where recovery from loss of lift would not be possible - but...the data's not available to us so...
Anyway, what the crew did in this respect turned out to be good enough, so kudos for that. 
Fly Conventional Gear
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So if they were stable...and everything was normal until 600ft where on earth does the eye witness report that the plane was banking at 45 degrees come from? Assuming that they were lined up with the runway banking would be the last thing to do.
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Boeing is installing wifi transmitter/receivers on the new 787, this means tthat Boeing is not overly concerned about trasmitting devices.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307849
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307849
As another poster said use during takeoff/landing presents the risk of injury from flying devices. Not to mention at critical times it is extremely important that people aren't distracted from hearing important crew instructions.
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Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A link has already been provided to an example where TCAS error's were experienced.
Although I haven't experienced anything myself I do have colleagues who have.
The biggest problem is isolating the exact cause. Often the person using the personal electronic device is never found. Their seating position and type of device used in combination can sometime cause a problem where other times nothing would occur. Even the frequencies that the aircrafts radios and nav-aids are tuned to can influence whether the PED has an effect on the flight.
Although I haven't experienced anything myself I do have colleagues who have.
The biggest problem is isolating the exact cause. Often the person using the personal electronic device is never found. Their seating position and type of device used in combination can sometime cause a problem where other times nothing would occur. Even the frequencies that the aircrafts radios and nav-aids are tuned to can influence whether the PED has an effect on the flight.
Pending definitive information, I would assume that that the 777 was stabilised on glideslope and on speed by 600' when it went through a windshear transition that presented it with an airspeed decay. The a/t would then be asking for more thrust which was not obtained.
Without added thrust, the only reasonable way to regain airspeed is to lower the nose and that's going to cost you a significant altitude loss.
But if you look out the window and see that regaining all that airspeed will leave you short of the fence with the power available, you then get to work out a pitch attitude that will hopefully get you over the fence. As long as the resultant speed is over the stall, you have something to work with.
What you will not have at touchdown at an airspeed close to the stall is enough energy to flare; so, the gear may be overloaded and come up through the wings.
2 nm out is about 12000' and it looks like they landed 2000' short of the glideslope; so that gives them a glide of some 10000' from the 600' point.
The 3 degree ILS glideslope is ~ 20:1.
Remember that before the windshear, the 777 was achieving 20:1 against the ground and that once restabilised, it would achieve a bit better than 20:1 at the same airspeed and power because of the decreased headwind. The problem would be the inability to regain the ILS.
If we apply the 20:1 slope for 10000', we obtain 500'; so it looks like the lack of additional thrust to counter the windshear engendered an altitude loss of ~ 100'. Given the high AOA shown crossing the roadway, I suspect they lost more than that and resorted to a lower airspeed to shallow out their glide.
Without added thrust, the only reasonable way to regain airspeed is to lower the nose and that's going to cost you a significant altitude loss.
But if you look out the window and see that regaining all that airspeed will leave you short of the fence with the power available, you then get to work out a pitch attitude that will hopefully get you over the fence. As long as the resultant speed is over the stall, you have something to work with.
What you will not have at touchdown at an airspeed close to the stall is enough energy to flare; so, the gear may be overloaded and come up through the wings.
2 nm out is about 12000' and it looks like they landed 2000' short of the glideslope; so that gives them a glide of some 10000' from the 600' point.
The 3 degree ILS glideslope is ~ 20:1.
Remember that before the windshear, the 777 was achieving 20:1 against the ground and that once restabilised, it would achieve a bit better than 20:1 at the same airspeed and power because of the decreased headwind. The problem would be the inability to regain the ILS.
If we apply the 20:1 slope for 10000', we obtain 500'; so it looks like the lack of additional thrust to counter the windshear engendered an altitude loss of ~ 100'. Given the high AOA shown crossing the roadway, I suspect they lost more than that and resorted to a lower airspeed to shallow out their glide.
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Well said M.Mouse!
I'm sick and tired of all the speculation - perhaps people feel an irresistible urge to see their pet theories in the press as, no doubt, a reporter or two will pen some tripe gleaned from the pages of Pprune as a "verifiable source of pilot materiel!"
The AAIB will get to the bottom of this incident and when they make their report public, we shall find out exactly what has happened.
Until then, I thank God that all of our passengers and crew are safe and I take pride in the actions of my Flying colleagues - those at the sharp end who managed to avoid certain disaster, the cabin crew who acted swiftly to evacuate and my own ground staff colleagues who did a sterling job (although some of the idiots of the press might not think so!)
........oh, and some tw4t on Flyertalk suggested lack of maintenance might be to blame! Bo77ocks! Despite all the cost-saving initiatives, there have never been any cuts in BA that would compromise safety!
Our Engineers are first-rate and I'm bloody proud of them too!
I'm sick and tired of all the speculation - perhaps people feel an irresistible urge to see their pet theories in the press as, no doubt, a reporter or two will pen some tripe gleaned from the pages of Pprune as a "verifiable source of pilot materiel!"
The AAIB will get to the bottom of this incident and when they make their report public, we shall find out exactly what has happened.
Until then, I thank God that all of our passengers and crew are safe and I take pride in the actions of my Flying colleagues - those at the sharp end who managed to avoid certain disaster, the cabin crew who acted swiftly to evacuate and my own ground staff colleagues who did a sterling job (although some of the idiots of the press might not think so!)
........oh, and some tw4t on Flyertalk suggested lack of maintenance might be to blame! Bo77ocks! Despite all the cost-saving initiatives, there have never been any cuts in BA that would compromise safety!
Our Engineers are first-rate and I'm bloody proud of them too!
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Originally Posted by pgomme
One theory that I haven't yet seen voiced, is the possibly of EMI affecting the engine management system.
....a scenario whereby there is a high likelihood of passengers activating PEDs during the final approach. As the article in September's 1996 IEEE Spectrum reminds, you don't need an intentional RF emitter such as a mobile phone, to cause interference, either in-band or out-of-band.
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BBC website is reporting that they will try to move the plane tomorrow morning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7197506.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7197506.stm
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Does the fact that this accident involve British Airways (arguably the world's safest airline) have everyone automatically thinking that the crew were infalliable?
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Guesswork
I spent 30 years flying jets for BA and only once had an engine problem, threw a blade on a Trident just after T/O at LHR.Modern jet engines just don't stop until the fuel supply is cut off and autothrottle/ engine management systems don't either. When was the last time your car engine quit!
Long flight, permanent jet lag, over familiarity, who knows, certainly not me. It is interesting that Willy paraded his pilots to the media and a little strange that the SFO didn't say a word. Didn't look too happy either.
Lets wait for the report-the CAA have everything they could possibly wish for so it shouldn't take them too long to find out what happened. They probably already know.
Long flight, permanent jet lag, over familiarity, who knows, certainly not me. It is interesting that Willy paraded his pilots to the media and a little strange that the SFO didn't say a word. Didn't look too happy either.
Lets wait for the report-the CAA have everything they could possibly wish for so it shouldn't take them too long to find out what happened. They probably already know.