BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
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Just a couple of observations as we arrived on 27R some 40 min or so after the 777 mishap on 27L.
There was convective activity in the area.
ATIS was giving either moderate or severe icing at FL090. I cant recall exactly which it was. Not sure if the 777 held prior to approach but engine icing may or may not be a factor.
There was a significant shear.
At 4000 ft on final approach the wind was bang on the snout at 50 kts with a surface wind at 220/8. I cant recall the 2000ft wind but at that point on the approach the tower advised that the surface wind was now 220/16 G32. That in itself is not significant but it did make for a rough ride and did require overiding the autothrottles with manual thrust application to maintain speed.
Without knowing any facts I would probably eliminate a low fuel state as this would have been acted upon sooner and ATC advised.
I have no idea what the spool up time on a large Trent eng is, but with the shear that was present at the time we arrived, it could have been easy to have ended up unspoole, and with a bit of negative shear thrown in the mix, it would explain the noise (attempting to spool up) and high nose attitude.
Engine icing may also be a possibility. Not sure if nacelle icing is auto or man on a 777 but if it was left off, and if the conditions around at the time of the 777 arrival were similar to those when we arrived, then it may be a factor. Not necessarily a total engine failure, but enough to affect either spool up time, or the amount of power available.
Just my .02 cents worth and only offered up for discussion and not in anyway an attempt to criticize the actions of the crew.
There was convective activity in the area.
ATIS was giving either moderate or severe icing at FL090. I cant recall exactly which it was. Not sure if the 777 held prior to approach but engine icing may or may not be a factor.
There was a significant shear.
At 4000 ft on final approach the wind was bang on the snout at 50 kts with a surface wind at 220/8. I cant recall the 2000ft wind but at that point on the approach the tower advised that the surface wind was now 220/16 G32. That in itself is not significant but it did make for a rough ride and did require overiding the autothrottles with manual thrust application to maintain speed.
Without knowing any facts I would probably eliminate a low fuel state as this would have been acted upon sooner and ATC advised.
I have no idea what the spool up time on a large Trent eng is, but with the shear that was present at the time we arrived, it could have been easy to have ended up unspoole, and with a bit of negative shear thrown in the mix, it would explain the noise (attempting to spool up) and high nose attitude.
Engine icing may also be a possibility. Not sure if nacelle icing is auto or man on a 777 but if it was left off, and if the conditions around at the time of the 777 arrival were similar to those when we arrived, then it may be a factor. Not necessarily a total engine failure, but enough to affect either spool up time, or the amount of power available.
Just my .02 cents worth and only offered up for discussion and not in anyway an attempt to criticize the actions of the crew.
The Reverend
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Volume,
You are obviously not an Airbus Aerospace Engineer.
The A340 Rat supplies emergency hydraulic power which also drives a hydraulic motor generator which supplies emergency electrical power.
On many airliner (i.e. all Airbus) the RAT supplies hydraulic power, not electric power.
The A340 Rat supplies emergency hydraulic power which also drives a hydraulic motor generator which supplies emergency electrical power.
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Congratulations to the entire crew,if they read or not these lines...very well done As one of your Prime Minister once (almost) said,in a difficult period of your History...
"Never in the history of BA was so much owed by so many to so few". W.C.
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Cowpatz
I guess you're a 74 driver.
Having flown both 74 & 77 the auto-throttles move helluva lot more aggressively on the 77, especially if the speed gets low.
At the end of the day, any landing you walk away from is a good one, and they all walked away from this one. Now we will wait for the real experts to offer their considered opinions in due course.
ETOPs
I guess you're a 74 driver.
Having flown both 74 & 77 the auto-throttles move helluva lot more aggressively on the 77, especially if the speed gets low.
At the end of the day, any landing you walk away from is a good one, and they all walked away from this one. Now we will wait for the real experts to offer their considered opinions in due course.
ETOPs
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With some of the advice/opinions being offered here I'd be more inclined to seek this gentlemans advice. What say 411A, PJ2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8L-ZZSc8JU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8L-ZZSc8JU
From the B777 AOM:
The RAT can supply electrical and hydraulic power simultaneously. If the RAT is unable to maintain
RPM, the RAT generator electrical load is shed until RPM is satisfactory. Power for standby electrical
loads is provided by the main battery during deployment of the RAT and when RAT generator loads
are shed.
The RAT is deployed automatically if both AC transfer busses lose power in flight. The RAT can be
manually deployed by pushing the RAM AIR TURBINE switch on the overhead panel.
On some, but not all B767 installations, there is a hydraulically-driven motor-generator.
The RAT can supply electrical and hydraulic power simultaneously. If the RAT is unable to maintain
RPM, the RAT generator electrical load is shed until RPM is satisfactory. Power for standby electrical
loads is provided by the main battery during deployment of the RAT and when RAT generator loads
are shed.
The RAT is deployed automatically if both AC transfer busses lose power in flight. The RAT can be
manually deployed by pushing the RAM AIR TURBINE switch on the overhead panel.
On some, but not all B767 installations, there is a hydraulically-driven motor-generator.
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As a 777 cpt I am very interested to know what happened,
I don't have any speculations, sorry.
I know how I feel sometimes after a 10, 11 hr. flight, maybe a bad night sleep before departure, and then to experience major difficulties just before landing....no thanks.
I am very glad for the pilots to hear there are no fatalities; as events will be going through their head again and again, they won't have the extra burden of loss of lives and the emotional impact of that.
I don't have any speculations, sorry.
I know how I feel sometimes after a 10, 11 hr. flight, maybe a bad night sleep before departure, and then to experience major difficulties just before landing....no thanks.
I am very glad for the pilots to hear there are no fatalities; as events will be going through their head again and again, they won't have the extra burden of loss of lives and the emotional impact of that.
Nunc est bibendum
here has been more speculating, postulating, pontificating and d1ck waving on this thread...
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Re: Bird Strike
Rather than a large flock of birds, how about a flock of large birds. Canada Geese and Swans have been identified in previous AAIB reports as potential hazards in the Heathrow area.
Brian Abraham...love that piece...showed it everyone here, passed the url out to as many as I could - great, great comedy, and yes, I'd agree that some sources have this peculiar quality to them, but some sources just don't know what they don't know.
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Wait for AAIB
May I suggest you stop speculating and monitor this page instead:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati..._bulletins.cfm
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati..._bulletins.cfm
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Just slightly off topic..but maybe now someone will look at FTL and realise an emergency at the end of a long duty, is a reality. How long will the CAA keep giving airlines, Level 1, 2 or 3 extentions? I know its not the case hear, but inflight rest on the flight deck or cabin needs looking at too.
PS. My feeling go out to all concerned at this difficult time. I think its great that everyone got out. Well done to all concerned.You can alway replace an airplane! I don't worry too much if the insurance companies lose out!
PS. My feeling go out to all concerned at this difficult time. I think its great that everyone got out. Well done to all concerned.You can alway replace an airplane! I don't worry too much if the insurance companies lose out!
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I saw a couple of the "eyewitness" accounts on the news, and it seemed clear they had not the faintest idea of what they actually saw!
This is very much in keeping with the general unreliability/differing perspectives of eyewitnesses to an event which they see for only a few seconds. I'll eagerly await the enquiry!
This is very much in keeping with the general unreliability/differing perspectives of eyewitnesses to an event which they see for only a few seconds. I'll eagerly await the enquiry!
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Hi drag high power approach. You lose the power your just left with hi drag, how the hell do you even make it inside the airport fence? Regardless of what happened awesome job to get it down as they did....well done Nigel!
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Lots of speculation here, but unlike any incident report that I have ever seen, all of them specify a SINGLE cause.
Chain of events anyone?
How about power loss / major bird strike FOLLOWED by windshear in a critical phase of flight.
Please feel free to add more.....that's what a rumour network's for!
Just my 2p.
Chain of events anyone?
How about power loss / major bird strike FOLLOWED by windshear in a critical phase of flight.
Please feel free to add more.....that's what a rumour network's for!
Just my 2p.
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Video Anyone?
Surely someone somewhere must have video of this approach and landing? We asked BAA to allow us to set up a permanent outside-broadcast set up at LHR to show every take off and landing live on a dedicated broadcast/ cable or internet channel. ....They refused point blank!
Hoofharted
Even some experts in London are suggesting it could have been windshear. Aircraft at the time were apparently experience wind changes below 200ft with the associated variations in IAS. I personally haven’t experienced it in LHR but I have in HKG and NRT. Luckily for me we knew it was coming and it was positive windshear, not negative as it appears likely here. What I have experienced at LHR is wake turbulence below 200ft because of the 3nm separation they use there on final. I was flying an A340-600 and we were following a B747-400.
By the way, how do you think the investigators initially start the investigation? They use experience and evidence to deduce (speculate) the most likely cause so they can direct their resources in the most economic direction.
Even some experts in London are suggesting it could have been windshear. Aircraft at the time were apparently experience wind changes below 200ft with the associated variations in IAS. I personally haven’t experienced it in LHR but I have in HKG and NRT. Luckily for me we knew it was coming and it was positive windshear, not negative as it appears likely here. What I have experienced at LHR is wake turbulence below 200ft because of the 3nm separation they use there on final. I was flying an A340-600 and we were following a B747-400.
By the way, how do you think the investigators initially start the investigation? They use experience and evidence to deduce (speculate) the most likely cause so they can direct their resources in the most economic direction.