DFT and Airport ID
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DFT and Airport ID
Could someone please advise me, Is it a DFT requirement when you operate a flight out of another airport within the UK you need to be escorted by someone with a valid, permanent ID from that airport?
i.e. your based at MAN but operate out of BRS
I have never come across this rule/law/requirement before.
But was told as I did not have a BHX ID I would either have to be escorted by a BHX ID holder or I would not be permitted Airside.
I am pretty sure this is another one of BHX's stupid little rules due to its TV fiasco last year thinking it will make it look more secure, however it just makes it look unprofessional and makes our lives more difficult.
Luckily our handling agent was quick enough to come and escort me to the aircraft, I was willing this to delay the departure of the aircraft, in the faint hope this silly rule would be changed.
i.e. your based at MAN but operate out of BRS
I have never come across this rule/law/requirement before.
But was told as I did not have a BHX ID I would either have to be escorted by a BHX ID holder or I would not be permitted Airside.
I am pretty sure this is another one of BHX's stupid little rules due to its TV fiasco last year thinking it will make it look more secure, however it just makes it look unprofessional and makes our lives more difficult.
Luckily our handling agent was quick enough to come and escort me to the aircraft, I was willing this to delay the departure of the aircraft, in the faint hope this silly rule would be changed.
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This seems to have spread over the last few years. Now your I D is just about useless at any other airport other that the one that issued it.
It's long overdue that the DFT get their act together and form a central issuing authority.
It's long overdue that the DFT get their act together and form a central issuing authority.
Humus Motor
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No, it's happening at MAN too ... the F/O and I (with 50 years flying airliners between us) couldn't get through - we were both from different bases. So a 19 year old girl ( very nice as she is) who has worked in the airline system as Cabin Crew for less than 6 months solemnly escorted us to our aircraft.
Now, call me old-fashioned, but by 'reductio ad absurdum', if I land my aeroplane at anywhere other than my home base, I am in breach of this regulation.. correct? Better confine myself to circuits then....... No, I've got it - I'll land somewhere landside.
C'mon DFT, get a grip.
Now, call me old-fashioned, but by 'reductio ad absurdum', if I land my aeroplane at anywhere other than my home base, I am in breach of this regulation.. correct? Better confine myself to circuits then....... No, I've got it - I'll land somewhere landside.
C'mon DFT, get a grip.
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The airports all make up the rules for themselfs, as long as they meet the DfT minimum requirements they can add anything they like.
The big problem is that they all have diferent local rules that a visiting pilot/engineer could not posably know about. This is were the friction starts has the heavy handed security ego kicks in and you find your self getting a dressing down from a numpty with an IQ lower than the dog next door.
In my opinion the DfT wants this situation to continue as this way if someting goes wrong they can blame the airport for not putting a local rule in place to prevent the problem.
Airport security is about two things.
First it is in place to prevent the DfT or goverment for getting any blame for an inccident (protection from the meda).
Second it is a way for the security industry to build an empire and make a lot of money by using a lot of low grade cheap staff and charging a lot for them.
Any security that we get from this system is totaly accidental.
The big problem is that they all have diferent local rules that a visiting pilot/engineer could not posably know about. This is were the friction starts has the heavy handed security ego kicks in and you find your self getting a dressing down from a numpty with an IQ lower than the dog next door.
In my opinion the DfT wants this situation to continue as this way if someting goes wrong they can blame the airport for not putting a local rule in place to prevent the problem.
Airport security is about two things.
First it is in place to prevent the DfT or goverment for getting any blame for an inccident (protection from the meda).
Second it is a way for the security industry to build an empire and make a lot of money by using a lot of low grade cheap staff and charging a lot for them.
Any security that we get from this system is totaly accidental.
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Trouble is you are all doing your best to get around these rules. The rules then become the norm.
Not allowed through: OK no problem just go back to the crew room and phone your airline. Flights go late or not at all. Rules will be changed.
Any argument from ANYBODY about going back to the crew room. Sorry gov, but I was not prepared to get stressed out before operating.
Oh and put in an MOR
Note: Do not get into an argument just shrug your shoulders and walk away, and have another cup of coffee in the crew room. These are not the DFT/TRANSEC rules just airports missinterpreting the TRANSEC letter to Airport Operators.
A few representations from your Airline & Aircraft stuck on stand will get it sorted.
Not allowed through: OK no problem just go back to the crew room and phone your airline. Flights go late or not at all. Rules will be changed.
Any argument from ANYBODY about going back to the crew room. Sorry gov, but I was not prepared to get stressed out before operating.
Oh and put in an MOR
Note: Do not get into an argument just shrug your shoulders and walk away, and have another cup of coffee in the crew room. These are not the DFT/TRANSEC rules just airports missinterpreting the TRANSEC letter to Airport Operators.
A few representations from your Airline & Aircraft stuck on stand will get it sorted.
DfT motivation
I think you ought to examine the motivation of the civil servants in the DfT. Their first priority is to protect the Secretary of State and the Minister. Their second and third priorities are the same as the first. Then, they desperately need to keep themselves out of any trouble. They must not get caught taking the blame for any decisions. Thus, they do their best to avoid decisions, unless those decisions enable them to blame someone else.
So why anyone on pprune looks to the DfT for sensible help is entirely beyond me.
So why anyone on pprune looks to the DfT for sensible help is entirely beyond me.
I have never really understood the reason for this escort.
Before I got a local ID I was "escorted" or not to the crewroom (2 min walk) depending on who was on duty at the checkpoint. Once at the crewroom the escort would return to security. This left me puzzled since I now had full access to the ramp etc! Why?
Before I got a local ID I was "escorted" or not to the crewroom (2 min walk) depending on who was on duty at the checkpoint. Once at the crewroom the escort would return to security. This left me puzzled since I now had full access to the ramp etc! Why?
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This farce extends beyond the shores of
stopping in DUB and on returning to the airport I attempted to get to my a/c via the staff channel. The security operative, upon inspecting my UK i/d told me that it was not acceptable and wouldn't allow me
. Slowly, but surely getting wound up (mainly because I've used the same i/d at DUB for a number of years prior to this event with no problems) I bit my tongue and asked as politely as possible how the f*ck was I expected to get to my aircraft. The flight was scheduled out in just over an hour and I was informed that I would have to be escorted by somebody from our handling agents. This involved trekking to the far side of the concourse, explaining my predicament and waiting for a member of the handling agency (who were very very busy doing their own jobs and tasks) to become available. The absurdity of the whole situation was that the person who escorted me didn't know me from Adam
.
Not had the pleasure of visiting DUB since this incident last year so don't know if it is ongoing or not
Blighty
. Last summer I was nightstopping in DUB and on returning to the airport I attempted to get to my a/c via the staff channel. The security operative, upon inspecting my UK i/d told me that it was not acceptable and wouldn't allow me
airside
access. I asked to see his supervisor and this gentleman also confirmed that my i/d (from a major UK airfield) was not acceptable to Dublin security. Slowly, but surely getting wound up (mainly because I've used the same i/d at DUB for a number of years prior to this event with no problems) I bit my tongue and asked as politely as possible how the f*ck was I expected to get to my aircraft. The flight was scheduled out in just over an hour and I was informed that I would have to be escorted by somebody from our handling agents. This involved trekking to the far side of the concourse, explaining my predicament and waiting for a member of the handling agency (who were very very busy doing their own jobs and tasks) to become available. The absurdity of the whole situation was that the person who escorted me didn't know me from Adam.Not had the pleasure of visiting DUB since this incident last year so don't know if it is ongoing or not
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Mech assassin - far too simple - it would never catch on.
Just think of all the beaurocrats you'd put out of a job for a start!!
Just to add another anecdote to the lunacy:
In a previous life I held an ID for a BAA airfield in the London area. As part of my work I went to visit a colleague working in a Scottish airfield also within the BAA group.
When I arrived the BAA security official was happily filling out an escorted pass based on my owning a passport & being known to the staff member accompanying me. When I mentioned that I owned a BAA pass I was told I could no longer have a temporary pass but would have to contact the BAA at my home base and have them give clearance for me to access airside. ....oh - and I'd need to give 48 hours notice!!
I know security has to exist and have no problems if it keeps all of us secure, but this one really baffled me!!
Just think of all the beaurocrats you'd put out of a job for a start!!
Just to add another anecdote to the lunacy:
In a previous life I held an ID for a BAA airfield in the London area. As part of my work I went to visit a colleague working in a Scottish airfield also within the BAA group.
When I arrived the BAA security official was happily filling out an escorted pass based on my owning a passport & being known to the staff member accompanying me. When I mentioned that I owned a BAA pass I was told I could no longer have a temporary pass but would have to contact the BAA at my home base and have them give clearance for me to access airside. ....oh - and I'd need to give 48 hours notice!!
I know security has to exist and have no problems if it keeps all of us secure, but this one really baffled me!!
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manchester
Manchester was the worst for me.
I had to goto the Id office before everyflight to collect a temp pass together with A a5 yellow sign which I was to ware saying visitor.
The Id office was terminal 1, so Park the car in term 3 long stay, goto term 2 where company office was to pickup a cabin crew member with local Id, then go back to Term 1 to Id office, then back to terminal 2 to prepare for flight from Manchester to Capetown minimum rest and back to Manchester.
I really hated flying out of Manchester because of this.
And the problem could not be solved as I was based in another airport which would mean if I had a manchester pass it may have "PARKED" between flights, so the same procedure would be followed.
I had to goto the Id office before everyflight to collect a temp pass together with A a5 yellow sign which I was to ware saying visitor.
The Id office was terminal 1, so Park the car in term 3 long stay, goto term 2 where company office was to pickup a cabin crew member with local Id, then go back to Term 1 to Id office, then back to terminal 2 to prepare for flight from Manchester to Capetown minimum rest and back to Manchester.
I really hated flying out of Manchester because of this.
And the problem could not be solved as I was based in another airport which would mean if I had a manchester pass it may have "PARKED" between flights, so the same procedure would be followed.
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mech said
LOL and who would you trust to run this passports can be forged easily as can most other ID`s. mind you whoever can think of a way will be very rich.
I guess the only way around it is to have an internationally recognised ID that all airlines and airports have to use, that is tamper proof, unable to be conterfeited or replicated, that can be read and understood by all security guards world-wide.......... should be easy enough, anyone fancy giving it a go?!!!!!!!!!!
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Remember a few years ago when the standardized zones and colour coded airside UK ID’s were introduced?
Yellow: Landside Only
Green: Airside, No Ramp
Blue: Airside, Inc Ramp
Blue/Yellow Stripe: Airside (Aircrew)
Red: All Areas
Each ID then had a number of the zones below depending on what your job required access to from the following zones:
1 - Internal Restricted Zone (including piers and walkways) but excluding zones 2 and 3
2 - Baggage Reclaim Halls
3 - Baggage make up area
4 - Ramp
5 - Aircraft and their footprints
6 - Other external areas of the restricted zone
7 - Landside
8 - All areas
9 - Controlled Zone
Most of the UK airports followed the standardized design for an airside pass except for LBA, NCL.
Aircrew operating away from their base airport should be able to get airside if they hold a valid Blue/Yellow stripe ID pass; this is meant to be the standardized ID across the majority of UK airports.
bfsalphaone
Yellow: Landside Only
Green: Airside, No Ramp
Blue: Airside, Inc Ramp
Blue/Yellow Stripe: Airside (Aircrew)
Red: All Areas
Each ID then had a number of the zones below depending on what your job required access to from the following zones:
1 - Internal Restricted Zone (including piers and walkways) but excluding zones 2 and 3
2 - Baggage Reclaim Halls
3 - Baggage make up area
4 - Ramp
5 - Aircraft and their footprints
6 - Other external areas of the restricted zone
7 - Landside
8 - All areas
9 - Controlled Zone
Most of the UK airports followed the standardized design for an airside pass except for LBA, NCL.
Aircrew operating away from their base airport should be able to get airside if they hold a valid Blue/Yellow stripe ID pass; this is meant to be the standardized ID across the majority of UK airports.
bfsalphaone
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Trouble is you are all doing your best to get around these rules. The rules then become the norm.
Not allowed through: OK no problem just go back to the crew room and phone your airline. Flights go late or not at all. Rules will be changed.
Any argument from ANYBODY about going back to the crew room. Sorry gov, but I was not prepared to get stressed out before operating.
Oh and put in an MOR
Note: Do not get into an argument just shrug your shoulders and walk away, and have another cup of coffee in the crew room. These are not the DFT/TRANSEC rules just airports missinterpreting the TRANSEC letter to Airport Operators.
A few representations from your Airline & Aircraft stuck on stand will get it sorted.
Not allowed through: OK no problem just go back to the crew room and phone your airline. Flights go late or not at all. Rules will be changed.
Any argument from ANYBODY about going back to the crew room. Sorry gov, but I was not prepared to get stressed out before operating.
Oh and put in an MOR
Note: Do not get into an argument just shrug your shoulders and walk away, and have another cup of coffee in the crew room. These are not the DFT/TRANSEC rules just airports missinterpreting the TRANSEC letter to Airport Operators.
A few representations from your Airline & Aircraft stuck on stand will get it sorted.
Don't get mad, get even.
I have never understood why tech crew get stressed out with this airport nonsense...a grossly delayed flight due to these issues works wonders.
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I have never understood why tech crew get stressed out with this airport nonsense...a grossly delayed flight due to these issues works wonders.
rules is sometimes to stick to them rigidly. Then the system falls apart and someone eventually has an outbreak of common sense (albeit quickly cured). Different industry, but many years ago I used to work at a place that suffered occasional idiotic pronouncements from someone at head office who was out of touch with reality. Most of the stupid rules got revoked within three months because any time we did something for head office we stuck rigidly to their rules.
The same suggestion that I have seen before :-
"I guess the only way around it is to have an internationally recognised ID that all airlines and airports have to use, that is tamper proof, unable to be conterfeited or replicated, that can be read and understood by all security guards world-wide.......... "
And the same response as before .... if it was issued by the security services from the UK or the USA, fine ... who is going to trust one that comes from Libya, Syria, Azerbijan or lots of other places ????
Fail to see why a UK wide pass or a US wide airside pass cannot exist though ????
DGG
"I guess the only way around it is to have an internationally recognised ID that all airlines and airports have to use, that is tamper proof, unable to be conterfeited or replicated, that can be read and understood by all security guards world-wide.......... "
And the same response as before .... if it was issued by the security services from the UK or the USA, fine ... who is going to trust one that comes from Libya, Syria, Azerbijan or lots of other places ????
Fail to see why a UK wide pass or a US wide airside pass cannot exist though ????
DGG
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 16th Jan 2008 at 15:54.
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And thanks to JARs and EASA it is now possible for aircrew from anywhere in Europe to fly the damn thing, on their non UK licence, once they have been escorted to it .... so EASA subscribing state says you are fit to fly, EU airline employs you, and then due to lack of common sense or standards (delete as you see fit) the security contingent decide you are a serious threat because you have ONLY been security cleared by another UK airodrome.
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Since when are the crew required to teach these high achievers the layout of a licence?
