Qantas B744 Total electrical failure?
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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My sewage system has a sump that (theoretically) allows the liquid and solids to be separated. I suppose that Boeing could start from that point and come up with something that ensures that only liquids go down the tube. If not I'm sure that Dyson could come up with a natty system using a centrifuge.
I've lost count of the number of times that I have reported, and engineers have cleared galley drains so it isn't a problem that is new to the industry. All that is missing is a will to correct it.
I've lost count of the number of times that I have reported, and engineers have cleared galley drains so it isn't a problem that is new to the industry. All that is missing is a will to correct it.
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I agree with you!
An air Transat crew faced the worst case scenario on a night of Aug 24 2001 over the north atlantic as their A330, while on the way from Canada to Lisbon, lost all electrical power and landed at Lajes Airbase,Azores.The APU was unusable,but thanks to the TAT they managed to make it to the Azores and by the way ,they lost not only all electrical power but all hydr.pwr as well,for they had a dual flameout caused by fuel shortage (maintenance error,as it turned out later),so this was a 100% DEAD STICK LANDING! The crew mantained the nerves and managed to glide the a/c on the Lajes runway blowing the tires and damaging slightly the gear,well folks,this is what I call an exceptional job!
As long as I have fuel enough and four engines running,as in the Quantas case,the solution of the prob is simply to steer the iron monster toward the next suitable airport by reverting to very basic flying skills,which we all shouldn't have forgotten...
An air Transat crew faced the worst case scenario on a night of Aug 24 2001 over the north atlantic as their A330, while on the way from Canada to Lisbon, lost all electrical power and landed at Lajes Airbase,Azores.The APU was unusable,but thanks to the TAT they managed to make it to the Azores and by the way ,they lost not only all electrical power but all hydr.pwr as well,for they had a dual flameout caused by fuel shortage (maintenance error,as it turned out later),so this was a 100% DEAD STICK LANDING! The crew mantained the nerves and managed to glide the a/c on the Lajes runway blowing the tires and damaging slightly the gear,well folks,this is what I call an exceptional job!
As long as I have fuel enough and four engines running,as in the Quantas case,the solution of the prob is simply to steer the iron monster toward the next suitable airport by reverting to very basic flying skills,which we all shouldn't have forgotten...
Jeton,
Two points.
1) They had hydraulics power through the rat.
2) The exceptional job would be termed differently by many other people. The approach & landing was exceptional. why they were there in the first place is another thing!
Two points.
1) They had hydraulics power through the rat.
2) The exceptional job would be termed differently by many other people. The approach & landing was exceptional. why they were there in the first place is another thing!
RWU;
Precisely...and the A330 QRH changed because of this and the crews' experience became simulator fodder for years, - (a good thing). This accident was no Gimli even in terms of human factors.
A lot changed at AT after this accident in terms of management taking some things more seriously including their FDM Program - a familiar pattern everywhere when management gets whacked with an accident and the need to explain aviation things to the media, to their passengers, their shareholders and most certainly the lawyers and insurers.
It also seems that the lesson needs to be re-learned every so often. Apropos this, an old friend offered the view that "nothing succeeds like failure, and nothing fails like success".
Jeton; For some good information on this accident, refer to Peter Ladkin's work.
If you think about it for a second, few transport aircraft without electrics or hydraulics have any chance of survival, (the United Airlines DC10 at Sioux City is the only example I know of and the fatality rate was still high).
As RWU points out, the 330's RAT provided hydraulic power for both the flight controls and for a hydraulically-powered motor-generator; the aircraft battery provided power until the Emergency Electrical configuration was established. The aircraft had both electrics and hydraulics but at a severely-reduced level. Click on the link for the Portugese report
why they were there in the first place is another thing
A lot changed at AT after this accident in terms of management taking some things more seriously including their FDM Program - a familiar pattern everywhere when management gets whacked with an accident and the need to explain aviation things to the media, to their passengers, their shareholders and most certainly the lawyers and insurers.
It also seems that the lesson needs to be re-learned every so often. Apropos this, an old friend offered the view that "nothing succeeds like failure, and nothing fails like success".
Jeton; For some good information on this accident, refer to Peter Ladkin's work.
If you think about it for a second, few transport aircraft without electrics or hydraulics have any chance of survival, (the United Airlines DC10 at Sioux City is the only example I know of and the fatality rate was still high).
As RWU points out, the 330's RAT provided hydraulic power for both the flight controls and for a hydraulically-powered motor-generator; the aircraft battery provided power until the Emergency Electrical configuration was established. The aircraft had both electrics and hydraulics but at a severely-reduced level. Click on the link for the Portugese report
Last edited by PJ2; 16th Jan 2008 at 17:20.
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You're right, someone's already thought of it. The GWAD (galley waste disposal system) is described as a custom option suitable for Boeing and Airbus aircraft. Looks a nice unit, weighs 6 kg and uses existing vacuum and waste tanks.
Maybe the price just went up!
Maybe the price just went up!
Why is it that when you fit a device to an aircraft, electronic or otherwise, the reliability seems to reduce by several orders of magnitude?
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Just goes to show how a bucket of sh#@$&t can turn the whole thing into a bucket of Sh&%[email protected] have thought there was some sort of overload redundancy protection..guess you can't engineer every possibility out of an aircraft..live and learn..glad it turned out ok
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would have thought there was some sort of overload redundancy protection..
For starters, I'm sure a few fuses would blow, leaving you with no power to your computer (Just like the airplane.. .except it had Battery/Standby power as a backup).When some of the devices looking after electric bus control and power generation are underwater, you're obviously going to have a few problems
So, far, as part of fault-finding and defect analysis, just about all the elec system control computers and at least one generator have been replaced.
Rgds.
NSEU
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How much fluid goes down a Galley drain during even the longest sector ?
Why have a Galley drain at all ?
Fit a galley cart with non permeable liner and use it as a sludge tank and remove it along with the catering at each port, replacing it with a cleaned unit.
Has to be cheaper than a hull loss.
The number of over engineered systems I encountered during my career still makes me shake my head.
Keep it simple stupid Don't even try to modify the above principle 
Why have a Galley drain at all ?
Fit a galley cart with non permeable liner and use it as a sludge tank and remove it along with the catering at each port, replacing it with a cleaned unit.
Has to be cheaper than a hull loss.
The number of over engineered systems I encountered during my career still makes me shake my head.
Keep it simple stupid
Don't even try to modify the above principle
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I fly gliders in cloud off mechanical ASI/alt, compass and a 100 quid turn & slip that will run off a small 12V battery for hours. Suggest you B744 pilots pick one up and duct tape it to your panel!
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"How much fluid goes down a Galley drain during even the longest sector ?"
Just a thought....
Used (grey) water from handbasins in the front and Upper Deck toilets is also linked to the forward galley drain system. Perhaps it wasn't the FA's and their tea leaves, but a passenger washing his fluffy socks in the handbasin which caused the flooding
On the longest sectors, probably just as much water goes down the sink holes as goes into the toilets (in which case, it would be very difficult to store this amount of water). Venting grey water is a good way of reducing airplane weight as the flight progresses.... and drowning engineers and servicing personnel during transits.
Just a thought....
Used (grey) water from handbasins in the front and Upper Deck toilets is also linked to the forward galley drain system. Perhaps it wasn't the FA's and their tea leaves, but a passenger washing his fluffy socks in the handbasin which caused the flooding
On the longest sectors, probably just as much water goes down the sink holes as goes into the toilets (in which case, it would be very difficult to store this amount of water). Venting grey water is a good way of reducing airplane weight as the flight progresses.... and drowning engineers and servicing personnel during transits.
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Has to be cheaper than a hull loss.
Costs associated with operation are a key figure for financial management. Hull losses are nothing you can give exact numbers for, so you simply ignore the associated costs, and only take into account insurance premiums, which are somehow independent of hull loss risk, as long as you do not have a hull loss.
The result of the cost comparison is quite easy : risk the hull loss, it´s cheaper on paper
There are several design details on any aircraft that constantly cause costs for unscheduled maintenance and impose the risk of a hull loss, but they safe money everyday in scheduled operation (as the price of the aircraft was lower...), so nobody wants to change them. All drains are good examples, not only for the galley sinks, but also the drains for the fuselage structure.
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Gray water was rarely an issue in cabin flooding. The modern vacuum toilet uses approximately 8 ounces of potable water per flush which is held in the waste tanks till serviced. Hand washing allows liquid soap to mix with the drain water, lowering surface tension and lubricating the drain hose inner walls. My experience of blocked lavatory sinks was when the punter chose to cough up a lung or empty his stomach of dried eel gonads or some such. 
There is no doubt that both historically and going forward, the culprits are the cabin crew trainers who never insisted during basic indoctrination sessions that pouring milk, wine, noodles, tea, coffee or ANYTHING but water down a galley drain could cause a catastrophe. More to the point, the Engineering departments that were deaf to the repeated pleas of their LAMES and tech crews who told them where the root cause of these recurrent problems lay
There is no doubt that both historically and going forward, the culprits are the cabin crew trainers who never insisted during basic indoctrination sessions that pouring milk, wine, noodles, tea, coffee or ANYTHING but water down a galley drain could cause a catastrophe. More to the point, the Engineering departments that were deaf to the repeated pleas of their LAMES and tech crews who told them where the root cause of these recurrent problems lay
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value
it's just occured to me that financial managers/accountants/financial officers/bean counters - call them what you will, know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. (I stole that from someone who's name escapes me, but it seems pertinent).
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Transat Glider
JETON
"they lost not only all electrical power but all hydr.pwr as well,for they had a dual flameout caused by fuel shortage (maintenance error,as it turned out later)"..
It was a fuel leak in one wing tank which caused the problem - but it was compounded by the crew's failure to notice that fuel consumption (i.e. the fuel being burned plus the fuel leaking out) was much higher than normal. They made things worse by opening the cross-feed valve - thereby transferring fuel from a sound tank into the leaking tank. Eventually all the fuel was lost.
"they lost not only all electrical power but all hydr.pwr as well,for they had a dual flameout caused by fuel shortage (maintenance error,as it turned out later)"..
It was a fuel leak in one wing tank which caused the problem - but it was compounded by the crew's failure to notice that fuel consumption (i.e. the fuel being burned plus the fuel leaking out) was much higher than normal. They made things worse by opening the cross-feed valve - thereby transferring fuel from a sound tank into the leaking tank. Eventually all the fuel was lost.
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"Peter Ladkin's work" link fixed here
Peter Ladkin's report was cited above but comes up 404 Not Found.
Lose the trailing period and the link works:
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ...AirTransat.pdf
Lose the trailing period and the link works:
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ...AirTransat.pdf