Qantas B744 Total electrical failure?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Well, if you're mid pacific at night in IMC you'll need your SAI to maintain hand-flown wings level attitude. You don't need to power the VHF and emergency lights, inverter, etc and run your battery dead!"
Agreed, but it's already been mentioned here and elsewhere at PPRuNe that:
The pilots may not have enough information on the flight deck to know which breakers to pull... and the might not know the consequences of pulling those breakers (and resetting them). There's a sample list of Battery/Standby systems on the D&G Zone forum (noting that it may be airline/aircraft specific). By the way, the VHF Left would not really be a big current drawer until you started transmitting.
In IMC you may have problems with icing (without probe heat for your Standby Instruments and valve control/operating power for Wing and Engine Nacelle Anti-Ice, so you'd want to get out of IMC as soon as possible). (EDIT: On further inspection of wiring schematics... looks like Auto Anti-Ice system uses Main Bus power, but pushbutton ON/OFF type uses APU Battery Bus)
Running this situation in a simulator will give you some idea of what might happen, but there might be a few random variables which would throw a spanner in the works.
Rgds.
NSEU
Agreed, but it's already been mentioned here and elsewhere at PPRuNe that:
The pilots may not have enough information on the flight deck to know which breakers to pull... and the might not know the consequences of pulling those breakers (and resetting them). There's a sample list of Battery/Standby systems on the D&G Zone forum (noting that it may be airline/aircraft specific). By the way, the VHF Left would not really be a big current drawer until you started transmitting.
In IMC you may have problems with icing (without probe heat for your Standby Instruments and valve control/operating power for Wing and Engine Nacelle Anti-Ice, so you'd want to get out of IMC as soon as possible). (EDIT: On further inspection of wiring schematics... looks like Auto Anti-Ice system uses Main Bus power, but pushbutton ON/OFF type uses APU Battery Bus)
Running this situation in a simulator will give you some idea of what might happen, but there might be a few random variables which would throw a spanner in the works.
Rgds.
NSEU
Last edited by NSEU; 13th Jan 2008 at 05:46.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stralya
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Il Duce can rabbit on all he likes.
IF it is a design problem-the 747-400 aircraft has been operating for many years and the drip trays are well known to the Engineers dispatching us the other day in YSSY. It was mentioned it was an item regularly inspected for integrity.
The sideshow of Borghetti fails to mention that for whatever reason, the drains blocked and water flowed into the MEC.Poorly trained, poorly paid cabin crew, reduced experience of CC on it goes... I suspect wherever the aircraft had its C check, the pressure put on the COST meant that this item slipped through the net and is now an "on condition" item, in other words unless it breaks don't fix it. Management pressure erodes into man hours expended, slowly but surely things are missed. Redundancies affect skill levels, knowledge isn't passed down, reduced oversight, foriegn maintainence that is cheaper (at least in $ terms) who may not be as experienced.
There is always a sequence of events generating a disaster, just as with many accidents the sequence of events were initiated far before the crew signed on and the aircraft took flight.
The blame I think ought be laid squarely at the feet of people who claim to trade on our 87 year reputation yet in their daily work deride and destroy it.
IF it is a design problem-the 747-400 aircraft has been operating for many years and the drip trays are well known to the Engineers dispatching us the other day in YSSY. It was mentioned it was an item regularly inspected for integrity.
The sideshow of Borghetti fails to mention that for whatever reason, the drains blocked and water flowed into the MEC.Poorly trained, poorly paid cabin crew, reduced experience of CC on it goes... I suspect wherever the aircraft had its C check, the pressure put on the COST meant that this item slipped through the net and is now an "on condition" item, in other words unless it breaks don't fix it. Management pressure erodes into man hours expended, slowly but surely things are missed. Redundancies affect skill levels, knowledge isn't passed down, reduced oversight, foriegn maintainence that is cheaper (at least in $ terms) who may not be as experienced.
There is always a sequence of events generating a disaster, just as with many accidents the sequence of events were initiated far before the crew signed on and the aircraft took flight.
The blame I think ought be laid squarely at the feet of people who claim to trade on our 87 year reputation yet in their daily work deride and destroy it.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NSEU ... you're piling up other possibilities of pitot tube icing, and no window heat; for that matter you don't have radar either and a host of other variables. But you'll survive if you can maintain attitude and wings level, icing or no icing. Everything other than the SAI in the dead of night in IMC in mid pacific is secondary. It's you, the battery and the SAI. That's it.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yaw Damper - NSEU's Question
Hola NSEU -
xxx
747 and Yaw Dampers -
Failure of both upper and lower Y/D is not a problem in 747s.
No limitations as consequence, no requirement to fly lower level.
747 is very stable and does not show tendency to get into Dutch roll...
One thing, the 747SP was a little less "stable" than long body 747s... but still ok.
xxx
To all of you...
This QF2 loss of all generators just verifies my feelings.
Read my previous (numerous posts) about the 2 men crew 744.
I fought like a tiger (alongside our majority of 747 colleagues) when our airline thought buying 744s...
We suggested used 747-300 instead, suitable for all our sectors.
Same passenger capacity and near same belly payloads.
No, bean counters decided to get 4 "used" 744s...
xxx
And the worse is - NO flight engineer, the most valuable cockpit crewmember.
Loss of all generators...? - I rather be in 747-200/300 with a F/E trying to solve the matter.
By chance, many accepted to train as 3rd pilot (cruise co-pilots) in the 744s.
And... crew of 3 in 747-200/300 is $85/hr LESS than 3 pilots required on 744s.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
747 and Yaw Dampers -
Failure of both upper and lower Y/D is not a problem in 747s.
No limitations as consequence, no requirement to fly lower level.
747 is very stable and does not show tendency to get into Dutch roll...
One thing, the 747SP was a little less "stable" than long body 747s... but still ok.
xxx
To all of you...
This QF2 loss of all generators just verifies my feelings.
Read my previous (numerous posts) about the 2 men crew 744.
I fought like a tiger (alongside our majority of 747 colleagues) when our airline thought buying 744s...
We suggested used 747-300 instead, suitable for all our sectors.
Same passenger capacity and near same belly payloads.
No, bean counters decided to get 4 "used" 744s...
xxx
And the worse is - NO flight engineer, the most valuable cockpit crewmember.
Loss of all generators...? - I rather be in 747-200/300 with a F/E trying to solve the matter.
By chance, many accepted to train as 3rd pilot (cruise co-pilots) in the 744s.
And... crew of 3 in 747-200/300 is $85/hr LESS than 3 pilots required on 744s.
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the great feedback, gents.
But if your pitot/static system ices up, too... and starts giving false airspeed and you overspeed or stall.... ???
Lose airspeed info, then you're struggling with pitch/power (hopefully you haven't pulled the CB for the Upper EICAS (=engine parameters), too
)
Someone mentioned using the pitch limit indicator on the PFD in the event of pitot info loss, but that only appears with the flaps down (and even to get that, you might need IRU's, AOA and heat for AOA, ADC's, MAWEA, .... etc.)
Cheers.
But you'll survive if you can maintain attitude and wings level, icing or no icing.
Lose airspeed info, then you're struggling with pitch/power (hopefully you haven't pulled the CB for the Upper EICAS (=engine parameters), too
)Someone mentioned using the pitch limit indicator on the PFD in the event of pitot info loss, but that only appears with the flaps down (and even to get that, you might need IRU's, AOA and heat for AOA, ADC's, MAWEA, .... etc.)
Cheers.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Up front
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Power + Attitude = Performance! So no ASI you can still do it...If you have an outside horizon you are made. Use your most important instrument in the aeroplane - the window! If no horizon outside use the stby AI. If no horizon speed increasing at constant power you are going downhill..gently back on att till the speed stops - voila the horizon...TSG (Harvard) pilots were recovering under the hood out of a fully developed spins in the 1930`s on limted panel ie turn and slip. ASI, Altimeter, VSI...The Jumbo is a wonderfully stable machine and will fly right side up in a straight line unless really abused...
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Snakepit Sydney
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pwr Failure
An interesting point is that the Sydney Heavy Maintenance sealed the galley floor areas around the MEC area very throughly, so any spillage or moisture from blocked drains would be diverted to the side areas of the galley, away from the MEC. Since QF management has outsourced its Heavy Maintenance and closed its Sydney Heavy Maintenance no one knows how well the galley floor areas are sealed. Sure a missing or cracked drip tray will create a dangerous situation for electrical components especially Bus power control units and Generator control units, but if the floor area is sealed well, it shouldnt be a problem. No one has looked at the floor sealing on any of these planes with cracked drip shields, surely that should be on the investigation list? After all a full drip shield could still have similar results as to what happened to QF2.....
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northampton
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(Harvard) pilots were recovering under the hood out of a fully developed spins in the 1930`s on limted panel ie turn and slip. ASI, Altimeter, VSI...
Does anyone do it now?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hola RogerG...
xxx
Anything over 10º pitch nose up of down...
And 30º bank, is "unusual attitudes" for today's Geeks and Nerds...
But they are excellent, at pushing buttons faster than me on the FMS.
Jet Provost, eh...? - For me was Fouga Magisters...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Anything over 10º pitch nose up of down...
And 30º bank, is "unusual attitudes" for today's Geeks and Nerds...
But they are excellent, at pushing buttons faster than me on the FMS.
Jet Provost, eh...? - For me was Fouga Magisters...
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry gents, but all this "learned discussion" about how you'd succeed in heroically nursing the crippled ship back to base after pulling the battery switch is Biggles comics/MS Flight Simulator fantasy. Try it in the real world with 400 tonnes of real Boeing under you and 99% of us in 99% of cases would end up in a spiral dive within 90 seconds.
Day VMC in totally ideal conditions, maybe... but many are making the mistake of coming up with a plan that would cover exactly this situation - knowing with 20/20 hindsight that this is the exact situation you're dealing with. In the real world, you could never be sure what the problem was as you tried to deal with three dozen cans of worms and a rapidly and everchanging situation.
Day VMC in totally ideal conditions, maybe... but many are making the mistake of coming up with a plan that would cover exactly this situation - knowing with 20/20 hindsight that this is the exact situation you're dealing with. In the real world, you could never be sure what the problem was as you tried to deal with three dozen cans of worms and a rapidly and everchanging situation.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys.
I am still surprised about the issue of the water flow directly downwards into important electronics. You know, the same guys that design those planes do it completely different when it comes to their IT server rooms. They are carefully checking for pipes above the server racks and move sprinklers when necessary.
But in a plane, the obviously don't do it the same way.
Installing a protective thin plastic layer above the avionics area would have prevented or at least delayed everything. Just do it in a small way in galleys and toilet areas is not enough. A plastic cover above the floor panels would at least move the water in different directions and maybe down in another area where it would not be that harmful at first.
I remember a smaller but still impressive issue with an 737NG behaving funny during flight and it only be stopped when changed attitude. It was the toiled directly leaking from above into a rack involved below.
Danny
I am still surprised about the issue of the water flow directly downwards into important electronics. You know, the same guys that design those planes do it completely different when it comes to their IT server rooms. They are carefully checking for pipes above the server racks and move sprinklers when necessary.
But in a plane, the obviously don't do it the same way.
Installing a protective thin plastic layer above the avionics area would have prevented or at least delayed everything. Just do it in a small way in galleys and toilet areas is not enough. A plastic cover above the floor panels would at least move the water in different directions and maybe down in another area where it would not be that harmful at first.
I remember a smaller but still impressive issue with an 737NG behaving funny during flight and it only be stopped when changed attitude. It was the toiled directly leaking from above into a rack involved below.
Danny
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Alabama
Age: 58
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There various levels of protection against water, solid objects and hazardous parts for electronic components. The IEC (Internation Electrotechnical Commission) has defined them as IPXX (XX indicates the level of protection). Here is a link to a more detailed description
http://www.hammfg.com/pages/s10_tech...460_iec529.htm
Now my question, what is the design IP of the avionics bays or racks?
A IP67 or even 65 should have been more than sufficient to avoid such incident.
http://www.hammfg.com/pages/s10_tech...460_iec529.htm
Now my question, what is the design IP of the avionics bays or racks?
A IP67 or even 65 should have been more than sufficient to avoid such incident.
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 13th Jan 2008 at 15:55. Reason: spelling
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
turn and slip
lot of talk about this...in jets they just don't do very well. I recall some of our planes (jets) had them and they were removed. talk was that in order to really work well the actual gyro had to be placed in the center of the plane.
also, at the speeds jet fly, you would need to have 4 minute turn gyros instead of 2 minute gyros likely found in smaller planes.
some may even remember the 1 2 3 method of instrument flying...kick rudder to start turn on the needle, bank wings to center ball, nose up or down for airspeed.
rotsa ruck in a jet.
lot of talk about this...in jets they just don't do very well. I recall some of our planes (jets) had them and they were removed. talk was that in order to really work well the actual gyro had to be placed in the center of the plane.
also, at the speeds jet fly, you would need to have 4 minute turn gyros instead of 2 minute gyros likely found in smaller planes.
some may even remember the 1 2 3 method of instrument flying...kick rudder to start turn on the needle, bank wings to center ball, nose up or down for airspeed.
rotsa ruck in a jet.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NSEU you still don't get it. The power is set! You're cruising at M.86 at FL360. No need to touch the throttles if you enter icing conditions and the pitot tubes ice up; no need to "chase" erroneous airspeed indications. You maintain present configuration! Put your armrests down and hold the wheel, maintain wings level with the SAI. Maintain heading with the wet compass according to your flight plan headings. Try it in the sim someday and convince yourself that you won't stall and spiral out of the sky if you only have a working SAI.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NSEU you still don't get it.
I have no doubt about your flying skills, but... as a pilot, do you really want to show the world how good you are flying blind.. or look at all the options available to you? Seems that quite a few pilots here have doubts about what they can/can't do... and even if they could do it... can they do it for 6 hours? (with the suddenly increased burden of navigation and communication)
An interesting point is that the Sydney Heavy Maintenance sealed the galley floor areas around the MEC area very throughly, so any spillage or moisture from blocked drains would be diverted to the side areas of the galley, away from the MEC.
Thanks.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Up front
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good man Glueball!! Newton all the way, Its not going to go anywhere in a rush! Wind your watch, sum up what you have left. Order your tea - still have hot water . The harvard etc analogy is merely to point out that the most important thing is your attitude - in more ways than one...A 747 is STABLE - it wants to fly! Try a helicopter in IMC or at night.
. The harvard etc analogy is merely to point out that the most important thing is your attitude - in more ways than one...A 747 is STABLE - it wants to fly! Try a helicopter in IMC or at night.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: manly
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re qantas 747-400 all generator loss
I too have been saying for years that a standby turn and bank with its own (12 hour) battery supply would have saved many accidents. If you add to this a battery powered high quality GPS you have the perfect survival kit that pilots could practically carry in their flight bag !!. Dont forget extra batteries !.
Prof. Airport Engineer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia (mostly)
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The organisational side of the QF incident is very well addressed by QF insider in the parallel thread running in D&G. And it makes sobering reading for more organisations than just Q.
Click below for that post #203
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=203
Click below for that post #203
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=203