US planes in near-collision
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: South Africa
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
US planes in near-collision
2007-12-9 07:34
Linthicum, Maryland - Two passenger jets passed within 91 metres of each other while one was landing and the other was taking off at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport last week, a US aviation official said.
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the incident, which occurred at the intersection of two runways on Sunday night.
The near-collision occurred the same week that congressional investigators released a report that found air travellers face a high risk of a catastrophic collision on US airport runways because of faltering federal leadership, malfunctioning technology and overworked air traffic controllers.
The Government Accountability Office said that in the fiscal year that ended September 30, there were 370 runway incursions - an aircraft, vehicle or person that enters a space reserved for takeoff or landing.
In Sunday's incident, a ComAir flight taking off from the airport flew over an America West plane that had just landed, Federal Aviation Administration spokesperson Jim Peters said.
The investigation is focusing on possible mistakes by air traffic controllers, and not pilot error, the spokesperson said.
There were 46 people aboard ComAir Flight 5412, and 155 people on the US Airways/America West Flight 83.
AP
Source:-http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=782855
Linthicum, Maryland - Two passenger jets passed within 91 metres of each other while one was landing and the other was taking off at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport last week, a US aviation official said.
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the incident, which occurred at the intersection of two runways on Sunday night.
The near-collision occurred the same week that congressional investigators released a report that found air travellers face a high risk of a catastrophic collision on US airport runways because of faltering federal leadership, malfunctioning technology and overworked air traffic controllers.
The Government Accountability Office said that in the fiscal year that ended September 30, there were 370 runway incursions - an aircraft, vehicle or person that enters a space reserved for takeoff or landing.
In Sunday's incident, a ComAir flight taking off from the airport flew over an America West plane that had just landed, Federal Aviation Administration spokesperson Jim Peters said.
The investigation is focusing on possible mistakes by air traffic controllers, and not pilot error, the spokesperson said.
There were 46 people aboard ComAir Flight 5412, and 155 people on the US Airways/America West Flight 83.
AP
Source:-http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=782855
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bielefeld, Germany
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This comes from an AP distribution. A longer version in another thread on the general problem of runway incursion is
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...6&postcount=13
Merge?
PBL
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...6&postcount=13
Merge?
PBL
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems to be a game of statistics going on...
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062007...a_g_535066.htm
GAO say incursions up 12% in 2007.
FAA say.. "The FAA says it has reached its goal of reducing the runway incursions it rates as most serious by almost 25 percent in 2007."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12062007...a_g_535066.htm
GAO say incursions up 12% in 2007.
FAA say.. "The FAA says it has reached its goal of reducing the runway incursions it rates as most serious by almost 25 percent in 2007."
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to realize that there is more to these ATC incident reports in the US than meets the eye...
Underlying the whole ATC delays/incursions stats are the fact that the controllers in the US are seriously pi$$ed-off right now at the FAA and the Gov. for imposing a 30% pay cut on them. The Dems realize this and are trying to pass legislation to force a re-opening of the contract, something which Bush has said he will veto (his administration is on a massive anti-employee purge in the aviation sector - a long-standing grudge between the GOP and aviation workers, and unionism in particular).
The FAA is trying to gloss over the whole thing with its stats...the reality is the controllers will simply step up action, such as enforcing mandatory in-trail approach separation on vmc days, as long as this contract festers with them. Nearly 1000 experienced controllers have resigned since the imposition of the cuts, and this is negatively affecting staffing at all levels - possibly contributing to incursions. The reporters here are starting to pick up on this, and the FAA is starting to appear more and more embattled.
Underlying the whole ATC delays/incursions stats are the fact that the controllers in the US are seriously pi$$ed-off right now at the FAA and the Gov. for imposing a 30% pay cut on them. The Dems realize this and are trying to pass legislation to force a re-opening of the contract, something which Bush has said he will veto (his administration is on a massive anti-employee purge in the aviation sector - a long-standing grudge between the GOP and aviation workers, and unionism in particular).
The FAA is trying to gloss over the whole thing with its stats...the reality is the controllers will simply step up action, such as enforcing mandatory in-trail approach separation on vmc days, as long as this contract festers with them. Nearly 1000 experienced controllers have resigned since the imposition of the cuts, and this is negatively affecting staffing at all levels - possibly contributing to incursions. The reporters here are starting to pick up on this, and the FAA is starting to appear more and more embattled.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
""FAA say.. "The FAA says it has reached its goal of reducing the runway incursions it rates as most serious by almost 25 percent in 2007."
Now, that is comforting...Thanks Guys.
Matt.
Now, that is comforting...Thanks Guys.
Matt.
The runway layout at BWI really is a problem, with landings usually on 33L and departures on 28 which intersect, as do all runways on the airport except the short runway used mostly for GA (15L/33R).
With the increased traffic levels at BWI, I have for a long time expected such incidents.
With the increased traffic levels at BWI, I have for a long time expected such incidents.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am disturbed by a number of comments here.
1. i don't care how p****** off controllers are, I don't think that should affect working practices in such a safety critical sphere as aviation.
2. I don't like comments such as *** sucks. The airport should just should work with the infrastructure available, and accomodate what can be accomodated.
But I accept I am not one who bows to commercial pressure.
1. i don't care how p****** off controllers are, I don't think that should affect working practices in such a safety critical sphere as aviation.
2. I don't like comments such as *** sucks. The airport should just should work with the infrastructure available, and accomodate what can be accomodated.
But I accept I am not one who bows to commercial pressure.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
22/04
fine, sucks is shorthand for an airport that is scheduled beyond safe capacity.
takeoffs and landings and intersecting runway operations is inherently more apt to lead to this type of near collision.
so, cut scheduled flights at BWI by fifty percent...oh, that's right...too much money is involved!
and it used to be called "friendship" airport.
fine, sucks is shorthand for an airport that is scheduled beyond safe capacity.
takeoffs and landings and intersecting runway operations is inherently more apt to lead to this type of near collision.
so, cut scheduled flights at BWI by fifty percent...oh, that's right...too much money is involved!
and it used to be called "friendship" airport.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
22/04: I hope you never suffer an enforced 30% paycut. I have. Believe me, it starts to enter your thoughts somewhat. What an incredibly naiive posting. "Can't they eat cake?"
There is a difference between the safety elements of deliberate actions (nothing the controllers are doing is deliberately affecting safety), and staff cutback effects or poor infrastructure effects. The ongoing lack of investment in the US aviation system is at the root cause of the incidents.
There is a difference between the safety elements of deliberate actions (nothing the controllers are doing is deliberately affecting safety), and staff cutback effects or poor infrastructure effects. The ongoing lack of investment in the US aviation system is at the root cause of the incidents.
Check the runway layout at BWI if you can find it on the Internet.
It is little better than Milwaukee (MKE: this might be the departure airport on our simulator checkride four days from now-it is listed among US airports with a very high rate of runway incursions).
How much pressure do ATC Supervisors actually put on individual controllers to sustain or increase the flow of traffic at such airports (i.e. Midway MDW, Houston H. HOU, Boston BOS-really hazardous
-Cleveland CLE etc)?
We need to give the planners of the new ATL taxiway credit. This new one-way taxiway (similar to Q at DTW) goes between runways 8L and R, and never intersects anything except other taxiways
.
It is little better than Milwaukee (MKE: this might be the departure airport on our simulator checkride four days from now-it is listed among US airports with a very high rate of runway incursions).
How much pressure do ATC Supervisors actually put on individual controllers to sustain or increase the flow of traffic at such airports (i.e. Midway MDW, Houston H. HOU, Boston BOS-really hazardous
-Cleveland CLE etc)?We need to give the planners of the new ATL taxiway credit. This new one-way taxiway (similar to Q at DTW) goes between runways 8L and R, and never intersects anything except other taxiways
.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: US
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KBWI airport diagram: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0712/00804AD.PDF
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no way!
KIAD is probably the best airport on the east coast.
I have flown in there regularly for the last 3.5 years and it is always the same: Good weather = usually expect inbound delays, be vectored 30 degrees off course, being slowed down to 250 KIAS, next controller reverses instructions and tells you to proceed direct with maximum forward speed. With RNAV arrivals in your flightplan, approach asks if you can proceed direct TICON and descend you manually instead of the published descend on the HYPER1 or the PRTZL1 arrival. Proceeding to the gate requires enormous patience especially during busy push times at the C/D gates and A gates. Deplane, reboard and the cluster **** starts again, with ramp control, ground control, etc.!
IAD does not have an intersecting runway layout (exception approach path of 1L crosses runway 30), I scared to think what this place would be like ...
New runway under construction won't be long enough to handle the heavy international traffic.
Bad weather = Usually no delays.
This place is just weird! I hope you were just kidding.
VENT MODE = OFF
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bad weather = Usually no delays.
and isn't that the mark of a good airport?
dulles has its problems, but I would rather be going there than atlanta, philly, boston for example.
I've been based in the IAD area, covering iad, dca, bwi since 1993.
and it all depends on the time of day...watch out for gliders near frederick
and isn't that the mark of a good airport?
dulles has its problems, but I would rather be going there than atlanta, philly, boston for example.
I've been based in the IAD area, covering iad, dca, bwi since 1993.
and it all depends on the time of day...watch out for gliders near frederick
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montgomery, NY, USA
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The local ABC affiliate in NYC is reporting on their 11:00 PM news that a near collision occurred at JFK. Of course, all of the rhetoric about "speeding down runways" and "hurtling towards each other" have been broadcast on all of the advertisements during the shows prior to the broadcast.
Apparently an EVA 747 was landing, but the pilot decided to execute a missed approach, apparantly realizing he was landing long. An American Eagle flight landing on a perpindicular runway aborted his landing. The report did not identify the runways. One of the correspondents described the 747 as "loaded with passengers", which must have been pretty uncomfortable, given it was a cargo flight. Most of the story targeted the issues with ATC, and Senator Charles Schumer was shown decrying the FAA. Not sure how ATC could have avoided this. This was not a case of ATC missing a call, it was a case of a pilot making a last minute decision (right, wrong or indifferent) and another pilot reacting by going around also. I'm sure, given the current atmosphere, the news organizations will be all over these.
Apparently an EVA 747 was landing, but the pilot decided to execute a missed approach, apparantly realizing he was landing long. An American Eagle flight landing on a perpindicular runway aborted his landing. The report did not identify the runways. One of the correspondents described the 747 as "loaded with passengers", which must have been pretty uncomfortable, given it was a cargo flight. Most of the story targeted the issues with ATC, and Senator Charles Schumer was shown decrying the FAA. Not sure how ATC could have avoided this. This was not a case of ATC missing a call, it was a case of a pilot making a last minute decision (right, wrong or indifferent) and another pilot reacting by going around also. I'm sure, given the current atmosphere, the news organizations will be all over these.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fine, sucks is shorthand for an airport that is scheduled beyond safe capacity.
Flying into BWI these days is rather depressing: With the exception of SWA gates that are somewhat busy, the rest of the terminal displays utter emptiness, especially the once busy USAirExpress gates (D or E gates, can't remember right now). It feels like the land of the dead, kinda like STL.
Back to IAD: I don't understand why this airport is delay-prone on good (VFR) days. After a great deal of vectoring and speed-changes, after landing you realize that there are hardly any aircraft on the ground.
And let's not mention the animosity between the Potomac and Philly controllers...
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Age: 75
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Controllers pissed off?
<<<< Underlying the whole ATC delays/incursions stats are the fact that the controllers in the US are seriously pi$$ed-off right now at the FAA and the Gov. for imposing a 30% pay cut on them. The Dems realize this and are trying to pass legislation to force a re-opening of the contract, something which Bush has said he will veto (his administration is on a massive anti-employee purge in the aviation sector - a long-standing grudge between the GOP and aviation workers, and unionism in particular).>>>
I'm not a U.S. air traffic controller, but if I were I would be seriously pissed at this comment. But maybe I'm reading something in to this you didn't mean.
Are you trying to say that the number of close calls we're having here in the states is related to mistakes controllers are making because they're angry. That would cost them their job.
So what was your point exactly?
Jetwhine
I'm not a U.S. air traffic controller, but if I were I would be seriously pissed at this comment. But maybe I'm reading something in to this you didn't mean.
Are you trying to say that the number of close calls we're having here in the states is related to mistakes controllers are making because they're angry. That would cost them their job.
So what was your point exactly?
Jetwhine
I certainly don't believe these close calls have any relation to angry reaction on the part of FAA controllers. At least not in any intentional or purposeful way. However, it is difficult to deny that job stress may negatively affect an individual's job performance.
Besides the silly disciplinary games FAA ATC management have been directed to subject the ATC workforce to, the matter of the mandatory overtime imposed on that workforce due to short staffing is doubtless a factor likely to increase the likelihood of operational errors. Increasing traffic counts coupled with decreased staffing and a contentious management/labor work environment don't seem like an ideal recipe for safety IMHO...
Still, in the afore mentioned occurrences, there is not yet any reliable information to indicate whether or not any ATC operational error or pilot deviation was responsible for the near mishaps. It's also possible that the procedures in use do not account for every possible contingency, and that the actions taken by the individuals concerned are the only things that prevented a couple of catastrophes.
I trust everyone is planning on exercising just a little extra vigilance while operating within the increasingly challenging US airspace and major airport environments.
Stay safe,
Westhawk
Besides the silly disciplinary games FAA ATC management have been directed to subject the ATC workforce to, the matter of the mandatory overtime imposed on that workforce due to short staffing is doubtless a factor likely to increase the likelihood of operational errors. Increasing traffic counts coupled with decreased staffing and a contentious management/labor work environment don't seem like an ideal recipe for safety IMHO...
Still, in the afore mentioned occurrences, there is not yet any reliable information to indicate whether or not any ATC operational error or pilot deviation was responsible for the near mishaps. It's also possible that the procedures in use do not account for every possible contingency, and that the actions taken by the individuals concerned are the only things that prevented a couple of catastrophes.
I trust everyone is planning on exercising just a little extra vigilance while operating within the increasingly challenging US airspace and major airport environments.
Stay safe,
Westhawk
