Report: High Risk For 'Catastrophic' Runway Crash
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Report: High Risk For 'Catastrophic' Runway Crash
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Amen!
I occasionally listen to www.atcmonitor.com which gives live radar views and audio for ATL Center, Tracon and audio for N. Tower at ATL. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the amount of air traffic on the scope was incredible and ATL isn't as busy as LGA, EWR or JFK, so I can only imagine how the mid-atlantic air corridor must have looked.
I have friends on this end of aviation, one works in a tower and they're feeling the stress of a system that's not keeping up with the increase in flights. Anyone who says this job is a cake walk ought to sit with a controller some time. I had a chance back in the 80's and it was a memory I've never forgotten.
Is the problem limited to the U.S.? Probably not.
I occasionally listen to www.atcmonitor.com which gives live radar views and audio for ATL Center, Tracon and audio for N. Tower at ATL. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the amount of air traffic on the scope was incredible and ATL isn't as busy as LGA, EWR or JFK, so I can only imagine how the mid-atlantic air corridor must have looked.
I have friends on this end of aviation, one works in a tower and they're feeling the stress of a system that's not keeping up with the increase in flights. Anyone who says this job is a cake walk ought to sit with a controller some time. I had a chance back in the 80's and it was a memory I've never forgotten.
Is the problem limited to the U.S.? Probably not.
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Several Airlines now view runway incursions as a bigger threat than CFIT and fear their next accident will be this. CFIT has reduced in 1st world airlines due EGPWS and a huge training push in this area, whilst the threat from runway incursions is increasing due busier airports.
Combine this with runway EXCERSIONS and you definitely have the biggest risk today I think (Air France and Iberia recently for instance, plus several in the far east).
Combine this with runway EXCERSIONS and you definitely have the biggest risk today I think (Air France and Iberia recently for instance, plus several in the far east).
Paxing All Over The World
Non pilot speaking
I find the most interesting words in the CBS article to be:
The reason I consider them interesting is the introduction of the word fatigue into air operations talk. Usually, that word is absent, even when many are saying that it is a big problem on the flight deck. Now it appears in ATC and ground control.
We've also heard this warning and response call before:
I'm just an old cynic, but I'd go with the Union on this one.
I find the most interesting words in the CBS article to be:
citing overworked air traffic controllers, many working six-day weeks
... including seven of the 50 busiest towers, are on six-day weeks.
Nevertheless, "agency officials indicated that they had no plan to mitigate the effects of air traffic controller fatigue," the GAO said.
Nevertheless, "agency officials indicated that they had no plan to mitigate the effects of air traffic controller fatigue," the GAO said.
We've also heard this warning and response call before:
The union says the cuts are too deep and reduce safety; the FAA says air travel has never been safer
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Yes, I'd go with the union too. If you'd ever stared into a scope for too long...
The FAA is spewing the same ole rhetoric about air safety. Gee...easy for them to do so because our profesional ATC and pilots have managed to keep the numbers down. God Forbid if an accident is what it takes to make changes in a stressed out system.
How about erring on the side of caution? If your best trained have serious concerns....THEY'RE TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!
I'd rather pay a few extra $$ in the cost of my ticket--like I do at the gas pumps, to supplement the cost of a safer system.
The FAA is spewing the same ole rhetoric about air safety. Gee...easy for them to do so because our profesional ATC and pilots have managed to keep the numbers down. God Forbid if an accident is what it takes to make changes in a stressed out system.
How about erring on the side of caution? If your best trained have serious concerns....THEY'RE TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING!
I'd rather pay a few extra $$ in the cost of my ticket--like I do at the gas pumps, to supplement the cost of a safer system.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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A slight tangent but...
...FAA staff aren't flying their families at Thanksgiving on private jets using some special high-cost ATC system that doesn't have these problems, they fly on commercial planes through the same understaffed, overworked ATC centers as the rest of us pax. And they are the ones who read about these incidents every day. You'd think they'd have a very personal incentive not to ignore the incidents and their root causes like ruthless cost management.
These are the sorts of questions that arise with any commercial venture I guess...like don't tobacco bosses (i.e. the "seven dwarfs") worry about their own kids smoking.
These are the sorts of questions that arise with any commercial venture I guess...like don't tobacco bosses (i.e. the "seven dwarfs") worry about their own kids smoking.
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I suppose its the nature of these things that it takes dead people to force any change related to improvements in safety, if it comes at a cost.
Certainly history has provided plenty of evidence of warnings overheard and action only taken once something terribly has happened.
Maybe I'm turning into an old cynic, but I cannot see the FAA (or any other regulator for that matter) taking any action that would certainly have an adverse effect on the financial performance of the airlines.
The airlines would be up in arms should that happen, and there would not be any political will to drive such a proposal - it's hardly as if some technological wizardy aimed at solving this problem is likely to decrease anybodies carbon footprint.
Ipso facto - as long as nobody is being burned to death following a runway collision two fiths of **** all is going to happen. Same with the over-worked ATCO's - unless a horrible accident can directly be attributed to a poor controller falling asleep over his scope following a mandated 60-hour working week, nothing is going to be done about it.
Certainly history has provided plenty of evidence of warnings overheard and action only taken once something terribly has happened.
Maybe I'm turning into an old cynic, but I cannot see the FAA (or any other regulator for that matter) taking any action that would certainly have an adverse effect on the financial performance of the airlines.
The airlines would be up in arms should that happen, and there would not be any political will to drive such a proposal - it's hardly as if some technological wizardy aimed at solving this problem is likely to decrease anybodies carbon footprint.
Ipso facto - as long as nobody is being burned to death following a runway collision two fiths of **** all is going to happen. Same with the over-worked ATCO's - unless a horrible accident can directly be attributed to a poor controller falling asleep over his scope following a mandated 60-hour working week, nothing is going to be done about it.
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I think opnot left a day out. Should be mmaannsooo. The two night duties can also be rostered as 2 day duties.
Personally, I never found the system tiring. Four days off on the trot was enough R&R and the mornings and afternoons gave you half a day "free" at home. Loved it... The old 4-watch was the nightmare - afternoon first day, morning AND night second day, sleep day, day off... back to afternoon, etc.
Personally, I never found the system tiring. Four days off on the trot was enough R&R and the mornings and afternoons gave you half a day "free" at home. Loved it... The old 4-watch was the nightmare - afternoon first day, morning AND night second day, sleep day, day off... back to afternoon, etc.
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Heathrow Director
At an airport where we have traffic all night ,I class the s day as a working day , I am at work from 0000-0700 with approx 3 hrs R&R,you know what I mean! then home to bed from say 0800-1400 then feel like s---t for the rest of the day. I then get 3 clear days off.
At an airport where we have traffic all night ,I class the s day as a working day , I am at work from 0000-0700 with approx 3 hrs R&R,you know what I mean! then home to bed from say 0800-1400 then feel like s---t for the rest of the day. I then get 3 clear days off.
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The 6 day week in the US is a variation of EEEDDMO with a quick change (less than 10 hours, more likely 8), from Evening-Day and the same from Day-Midnight. There is only the one day off every week!
e.g 1500-2330, 1400-2230, 1300-2130, 0600-1430, 0530-1400, 2200-0630. The last 2 shifts start on the same day. This is a common practice in North America. In Canada there is a 10 hour minimum which the controller is allowed to waive. Personally I would never work a short change and am fortunate that I am able to work a schedule that does not require me to do it. Those in the US are not so fortunate it seems.
This is far, far removed from the NATS 6 day fortnight. You realise how lucky you are don't you?
e.g 1500-2330, 1400-2230, 1300-2130, 0600-1430, 0530-1400, 2200-0630. The last 2 shifts start on the same day. This is a common practice in North America. In Canada there is a 10 hour minimum which the controller is allowed to waive. Personally I would never work a short change and am fortunate that I am able to work a schedule that does not require me to do it. Those in the US are not so fortunate it seems.
This is far, far removed from the NATS 6 day fortnight. You realise how lucky you are don't you?
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its just a matter of time
well, BWI and now Newark (EWR) just had what are called near misses...perhaps near collisions or near mid air collisions (near mid ground collision?)
Errors by the US Federal Govt. for the last 30 years will be part of the next collision!
For goodness sake, check final before taking the runway...turn your damn lights on when taking the runway or just prior! listen up, and if your the FO and the captain is screwing up...DO SOMETHING
Errors by the US Federal Govt. for the last 30 years will be part of the next collision!
For goodness sake, check final before taking the runway...turn your damn lights on when taking the runway or just prior! listen up, and if your the FO and the captain is screwing up...DO SOMETHING
I agree with HD. I also worked many years of the NATS airports duty roster and did not find it fatigueing. It should also be remembered that the UK has 'Legal Limitation of Controller Hours' with maximum operational duty times before a fatigue break [at busy units this is often 90 minutes], minimum rest periods between duties and specified longer breaks between work cycles. Strict limitations are also placed upon any 'overtime' working.
I suggest that the FAA controllers union should be campaigning for a UK type of legal limitation of their work hours. Indeed it is something that ICAO should be debating for universal application, if they really have safety as the highest priority.
I suggest that the FAA controllers union should be campaigning for a UK type of legal limitation of their work hours. Indeed it is something that ICAO should be debating for universal application, if they really have safety as the highest priority.
