Bent Fly Star at LGW
Why only last night there was an incident of a sheer pin failing on an a/c at an airport in the Gulf region............... the reason was the Captain didn't release the handbrake when asked.
Is he now a flyboy cowboy?
Is he now a flyboy cowboy?
Surely not,
Had the Capt told the ground crew he had released the parkbrake?
Why only last night there was an incident of a sheer pin failing on an a/c at an airport in the Gulf region............... the reason was the Captain didn't release the handbrake when asked.
Is he now a flyboy cowboy?
Is he now a flyboy cowboy?
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Well shiver my timbers. The finger of blame gets pointed back at the flight deck (along with a bit of personal abuse- but I don't think that is productive!). So let me ask you both- you say the Parking Brake was not released when you commenced pushing, hence pin breakage? What sort of operation is that? The pilot asks for pushback, the ground operator asks for Park brake release, the pilot confirms Park Brake released, pushback then commences. What sort of procedures are you using?
I have to say in all my career, I have seen a constant procession of tow incidents- far more than ever caused by pilot collisions. From pushback/tow damage such as with this particular aeroplane that will cause it to go out of service for approximately 6 weeks, to aeroplanes being pushbacked into other aeroplanes, to maintenance apron damage and damage going in and out of hangars. Add to that litany constant baggage loading/service vehicle collisions with aeroplanes, and it appears to be a frightening toll on the industry. Maybe time for proper safety procedures to be drilled home, with several high profile sackings of such carelessness? I watch some of the empty towing operations now and I don't like what I see. Pilots manage to manoeuvre these massive aeroplanes around airfields, even without being able to see the tail or the wingtips, quite safely, with accidents incredibly rare. Why are so many aeroplanes damaged by towers? There is no excuse for a tow team to fumble a pushback where the brake is still set. That is not down to the pilot!
The expression I would use is 'cavalier'- it sounds a bit better than 'cowboy'.
I have to say in all my career, I have seen a constant procession of tow incidents- far more than ever caused by pilot collisions. From pushback/tow damage such as with this particular aeroplane that will cause it to go out of service for approximately 6 weeks, to aeroplanes being pushbacked into other aeroplanes, to maintenance apron damage and damage going in and out of hangars. Add to that litany constant baggage loading/service vehicle collisions with aeroplanes, and it appears to be a frightening toll on the industry. Maybe time for proper safety procedures to be drilled home, with several high profile sackings of such carelessness? I watch some of the empty towing operations now and I don't like what I see. Pilots manage to manoeuvre these massive aeroplanes around airfields, even without being able to see the tail or the wingtips, quite safely, with accidents incredibly rare. Why are so many aeroplanes damaged by towers? There is no excuse for a tow team to fumble a pushback where the brake is still set. That is not down to the pilot!
The expression I would use is 'cavalier'- it sounds a bit better than 'cowboy'.
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Maybe time for proper safety procedures to be drilled home, with several high profile sackings of such carelessness?
There are SOPS covering this procedure but I have noticed the deterioration in adherence by some ground crews. This I put down to the ever increasing pressure put on handling companies for quick turnrounds. There is no doubt in my mind the pushback is directed by the flight deck. Unfortunately some crews think it works the other way. Pushback I had a while back went a bit like this.
Me: "Flight deck to ground good evening"
GND: "Flight deck release brakes"
Me: "flt deck/gnd negative, can I have your checks please"
GND: "complete, please release brakes"
Me: "flt deck/gnd again negative, we will get pushback clearance standby"
Once we had got clearance and I had released brakes I swear they started pushing instantaneously. The shame of it is that SOPS are followed not only to protect the aircraft, but more importantly to safeguard the ground crew.
Me: "Flight deck to ground good evening"
GND: "Flight deck release brakes"
Me: "flt deck/gnd negative, can I have your checks please"
GND: "complete, please release brakes"
Me: "flt deck/gnd again negative, we will get pushback clearance standby"
Once we had got clearance and I had released brakes I swear they started pushing instantaneously. The shame of it is that SOPS are followed not only to protect the aircraft, but more importantly to safeguard the ground crew.
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Hi guys not being either flight or tug crew, maybe would it be a good idea if
flight crews actually got to sit in with a tug driver at some time just to experience the other side of a push back/tow as I know it is quite a delicate job as friend of mine has trained as a tug driver and has given me quite an insight into the job.
Just a thought
Ian
flight crews actually got to sit in with a tug driver at some time just to experience the other side of a push back/tow as I know it is quite a delicate job as friend of mine has trained as a tug driver and has given me quite an insight into the job.
Just a thought
Ian
Ian,
Whilst I can understand your sentiments, we share the ride & also observe the manoeuvres by the tug to get us into position. The difficulty is not underestimated. However the difference between some crews is huge. A pushback by an good experienced crew is smooth & stress-free. A poor pushback crew is very apparent.
Whilst I can understand your sentiments, we share the ride & also observe the manoeuvres by the tug to get us into position. The difficulty is not underestimated. However the difference between some crews is huge. A pushback by an good experienced crew is smooth & stress-free. A poor pushback crew is very apparent.
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So to follow up, there was no problem with communications between ground staff and flight deck crew.....in fact no pilots were anywhere near the aeroplane. Nobody was involved except a tow team from a Gatwick handling company beginning with 'A'- they appear to have been going at high speed around a corner when said aeroplane and tow truck parted company, and said aeroplane struck truck. Word on the street (alright, Manor Royal sandwich bar) is seven figure damage, around 6 weeks repair. And now no doubt a tussle over who exactly was to blame!
Rainboe whilst I appreciate that you are obviously closely involved in this incident and wish for some retribution to right the perceived wrong, your thinking is very old fashioned.
Over the last ten years or so the emphasis on the ground has been in getting the ramp staff to report when they have scraped, hit, damaged an aircraft. The 'instant dismissal' line of thought was not effective in encouraging staff to report damage, so after seeing the positive effect on reporting that flight deck have with CHIRP something along those lines has been encouraged on the ground. Staff can still be sacked if investigation shows that the damage is caused by wilfull negligence, but if it is down to a poor procedure that needs to be changed, or a design fault in equipment etc then by encouraging reporting a trend can be picked up and a remedy put in place.
What pressure was the tow crew under that caused them to tow the aircraft at too high a speed? Were they being asked to clear quickly by ATC Ground? What constitutes high speed? Most tugs rock and roll alarmingly if they are going quickly so the crew would have known they were travelling fast. Who was the brakeman in the cockpit and did he ask the driver to slow down? What is the condition of the tarmac at the point where the incident happened, did this contribute to the accident?
The difference between a good landing in a strong crosswind can often be down to an experienced pilot in control;as a passenger we notice these things. We also accept that he has probably had his fair share of less smooth landings when he was new to the job or type........but he has to learn. So does a tug driver.
As for your ridiculous exaggeration
it devalues your argument by using the word 'constant' which is plainly inaccurate. The days of a relaxed turnround are long gone, the bean counters have demanded high utilisation, whilst the ops guys have demanded high OTP. All this has resulted in more vehicles around the aircraft at the same time, and all rushing to complete the task in their allotted time to avoid penalty payments for late departures.
Where I am working at the moment has seen a major increase in peak movements on shorter turnrounds. Yet despite this, and the necessary increase in equipment and new manpower, the incident of injury or damage has declined over last year. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this trend is
mirrored elsewhere.
Over the last ten years or so the emphasis on the ground has been in getting the ramp staff to report when they have scraped, hit, damaged an aircraft. The 'instant dismissal' line of thought was not effective in encouraging staff to report damage, so after seeing the positive effect on reporting that flight deck have with CHIRP something along those lines has been encouraged on the ground. Staff can still be sacked if investigation shows that the damage is caused by wilfull negligence, but if it is down to a poor procedure that needs to be changed, or a design fault in equipment etc then by encouraging reporting a trend can be picked up and a remedy put in place.
What pressure was the tow crew under that caused them to tow the aircraft at too high a speed? Were they being asked to clear quickly by ATC Ground? What constitutes high speed? Most tugs rock and roll alarmingly if they are going quickly so the crew would have known they were travelling fast. Who was the brakeman in the cockpit and did he ask the driver to slow down? What is the condition of the tarmac at the point where the incident happened, did this contribute to the accident?
The difference between a good landing in a strong crosswind can often be down to an experienced pilot in control;as a passenger we notice these things. We also accept that he has probably had his fair share of less smooth landings when he was new to the job or type........but he has to learn. So does a tug driver.
As for your ridiculous exaggeration
Add to that litany constant baggage loading/service vehicle collisions with aeroplanes
Where I am working at the moment has seen a major increase in peak movements on shorter turnrounds. Yet despite this, and the necessary increase in equipment and new manpower, the incident of injury or damage has declined over last year. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this trend is
mirrored elsewhere.
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To add some extra detail... the a/c was apparently being towed on to a 'wash stand' for some washing of the engines. (uhm, slippery when wet perhaps? 
)
Approaching the stand it's muted that the tug 'jackknifed' (with all manner of speculation as to why?!) and that the a/c then impacted with the tug... therein causing substantial damage to the skin / frames on the RHS (in the area aft of the nose cone).
The aircraft is not in a flyable condition and so has to remain at LGW until the repair is complete.
To repair it, the damaged area will need completely re-skinning / re-framing, which apparently involves removal of the forward galley, much of the avionics / E&E bay, flight deck, etc... and following this it will need to be air-tested and the repaired area will need painting.
Boeing are sending over a substantial team of people (24?) to do the repair work.
With good fortune the a/c might(?) be back in service prior to Christmas (if only so that the Boeing team can be home themselves in time for the Xmas
).
Guestimates at the cost of the repair are muted as being in the region of $2,500,000 USD !
with the assumption that the nose gear / torque box is not damaged?... in which case it'll take longer & cost more!
)Approaching the stand it's muted that the tug 'jackknifed' (with all manner of speculation as to why?!) and that the a/c then impacted with the tug... therein causing substantial damage to the skin / frames on the RHS (in the area aft of the nose cone).
The aircraft is not in a flyable condition and so has to remain at LGW until the repair is complete.
To repair it, the damaged area will need completely re-skinning / re-framing, which apparently involves removal of the forward galley, much of the avionics / E&E bay, flight deck, etc... and following this it will need to be air-tested and the repaired area will need painting.
Boeing are sending over a substantial team of people (24?) to do the repair work.
With good fortune the a/c might(?) be back in service prior to Christmas (if only so that the Boeing team can be home themselves in time for the Xmas
).Guestimates at the cost of the repair are muted as being in the region of $2,500,000 USD !
with the assumption that the nose gear / torque box is not damaged?... in which case it'll take longer & cost more!
Last edited by Old King Coal; 28th Nov 2007 at 08:13.
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Its interesting what Rainboe has said.
A similar incident happened on night in 2003with a BA 734 GDOCO where the aircraft was being towed by a towbarless tug and as it tried to turn onto stand the aircraft appeared no to want to turn and jackknifed the tug in such a way that the tug spiralled around the front undercarriage still being attached to it. As a result the front of the aircraft seemed to jump and landed on top of the tug which was now facing rearwards but still attached. Luckily for the driver he escaped reportedly unscratched but very shaken. The cab of the tug was crushed and the underside of the aircraft had huge gaping rips in the skin and bent frames. In order to extricate the tug from underneath the B734 the airport authority had to use airbags to lift the aircraft and disconnect the nosewheel from the tug.
Old King Coal
Thanks for those details on the repair. That is an astonishing ammount. Guess that will be bourne by the handling agents insurers.
A similar incident happened on night in 2003with a BA 734 GDOCO where the aircraft was being towed by a towbarless tug and as it tried to turn onto stand the aircraft appeared no to want to turn and jackknifed the tug in such a way that the tug spiralled around the front undercarriage still being attached to it. As a result the front of the aircraft seemed to jump and landed on top of the tug which was now facing rearwards but still attached. Luckily for the driver he escaped reportedly unscratched but very shaken. The cab of the tug was crushed and the underside of the aircraft had huge gaping rips in the skin and bent frames. In order to extricate the tug from underneath the B734 the airport authority had to use airbags to lift the aircraft and disconnect the nosewheel from the tug.
Old King Coal
Thanks for those details on the repair. That is an astonishing ammount. Guess that will be bourne by the handling agents insurers.
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It doesn't take a leap of intellect to realise that an aeroplane has a lot of inertia. It doesn't want to move in the first place, and once it is moving, it wants to keep going at that speed, and in that direction. So if you are towing and you are coming to a turn, I guess you don't try and brake otherwise you will have have an aeroplane taking your rear in the direction it was originally going? Lots of truck drivers regularly discover this. And if it is wet as well? Definitely no accelerating or braking in a turn. But aeroplanes are big and look heavy and stable, but this 737 only weighed about 35 tons. I'm afraid so often I look at aeroplanes being towed around empty, and very often I comment and watch waiting for the inevitable, which the ground crews regularly ensure happens. I'm afraid in civil aviation, I think this is the last remaining area where operations are appallingly slapdash.
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Very similar towing accident happened to an Air Berlin Airbus at EDDT/TXL some days ago. Here are the pics: http://juergens-flugzeugbilder.freeh...9bilder_5.html
Seems like the tower took a too narrow corner, the a/c turned around the tower and then went over it after breaking the towbar.
Seems like the tower took a too narrow corner, the a/c turned around the tower and then went over it after breaking the towbar.
Edited to include extra photo...
Post damage assessment by Boeing work party. Blue tape indicates station numbers Frame locations. Lap joint at Stringer 24 extensively damaged.
Will be quite a long repair this one !
Post damage assessment by Boeing work party. Blue tape indicates station numbers Frame locations. Lap joint at Stringer 24 extensively damaged.
Will be quite a long repair this one !
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Ouch.
I've had the pleasure of sitting in for a few pushbacks, and to be fair, the environment is totally different to that in the Flightdeck. it's a worthwhile experience, if some of us can belittle ourselves to experience it!
One possible thought as to why some Ground crew ask for brakes so promptly is they are aware of the consequences of delay penalties and that the signal on ACARS or whatever goes with brake release. Still totally bad SOP to push the flightcrew along though.
I have experienced it too, but didn't comply.
Like many aspects, the job of moving customers by air is a TEAM EXERCISE. All of us, tuggies, dispatchers, loaders, ATC and pilots and cabin crew all have a part to play, but none of us can do it alone. Pilots aren't necessarily the best paid of those mentioned either!
I've had the pleasure of sitting in for a few pushbacks, and to be fair, the environment is totally different to that in the Flightdeck. it's a worthwhile experience, if some of us can belittle ourselves to experience it!
One possible thought as to why some Ground crew ask for brakes so promptly is they are aware of the consequences of delay penalties and that the signal on ACARS or whatever goes with brake release. Still totally bad SOP to push the flightcrew along though.
I have experienced it too, but didn't comply.
Like many aspects, the job of moving customers by air is a TEAM EXERCISE. All of us, tuggies, dispatchers, loaders, ATC and pilots and cabin crew all have a part to play, but none of us can do it alone. Pilots aren't necessarily the best paid of those mentioned either!
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Awful sight. A lovely, up to date 737. They never squash the ones that need it! I assume A-'s insurance will pay for the damage, the plane will be returned by Christmas with an empty weight a bit more than before the incident (I hesitate to call such an incident an 'accident'), but who compensates the airline for the lost revenue? I hope a large bill will wing its way to A- for the winter contracts the company can no longer fulfill. Who is to compensate the crews for the flying they can no longer do until this thing is returned and checked out?
The attitude here that there is a no-blame culture does not sit well. There is no room for negligence in aviation. A crew member blowing a slide is in a shedload of trouble. Having crew sit in on pushes won't achieve anything- the incidents that do take place are when no crew is present.
The attitude here that there is a no-blame culture does not sit well. There is no room for negligence in aviation. A crew member blowing a slide is in a shedload of trouble. Having crew sit in on pushes won't achieve anything- the incidents that do take place are when no crew is present.
