ALPA National Raids USAIRWAYS KPIT OFFICE!
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Yep, I'd have a great DOH with my first ALPA carrier on that mythical national seniority list...
Very few pilot mergers in the past couple of decades have gone date of hire though. Maybe they did it that way back in 1932 but I've never been merged like that.
Very few pilot mergers in the past couple of decades have gone date of hire though. Maybe they did it that way back in 1932 but I've never been merged like that.
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An Option
Johnny 767 hit it right on the HEAD! “Imagine what a Boeing 777 Captain would earn, if his skill was transferable….”
This is the fundamental problem with ALPA and every other concept in American aviation. The fact is that YOUR skills ARE TRANSFERABLE just no one tells you so! A-320 Captains can make 200K a year after taxes. They can live in 4000 sq ft villas paid for by the company. They can receive 30-50K a year bonuses and stock GRANTS that only senior management receives in the USA. The problem is everyone argues about the scraps like a bunch of seagulls on the beach. Multiply the dollars for the larger equipment, but the facts are true. Here are a few websites to look at but guys until you take your services away from the folks in charge you will NEVER GET PAID WHAT YOU DESERVE!
Gulf Air = $10,000+ per month for sitting home (max 14K+ excluding housing.) http://www.arabianbusiness.com/49598...in-20mn-scheme
Emirates $8,000+ per month basic + housing etc apx value $14K plus flight pay. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a.../emirates.html
Etihad = $12,500+ per month + flight pay and mortgage payment.
Air Arabia = $11,100+ per month + flight pay. http://www.airarabia.com/documents/a...package_en.pdf
All of these include educations allowance that totals about 28-35K a year for private schooling for your kids. Free medical using USA, UK or German doctors and hospitals. Not to mention 45 days vacations a year to start, retirement, stock (for some companies) bonus etc. It is normal for Captains to make $13-15K a month ($16-18K with schooling and $17-20K for flying 90hrs/mo) for flying a B-737 or A-320. Not much difference for a B-777 or A-340 (or 380 for that matter.)
ALL TAX FREE AND NO DUES!
Go to Asiana, Cathy, Eva and do the same. Put in India and you will find it far more lucrative with guys flying A-340s making $15-17K a month. Want to fly an A-380 for Kingfisher, you have some heavy time, you could make a deal for well into the $25K range a month. http://www.flykingfisher.com/careers.asp Want to fly an A-340 for Jet Airways to London? Ok you could command $20K a month and a base NOT IN INDIA but Europe. http://www.jetairways.com/Cultures/e...t+Application/
Guys the opportunities are unbelievable, but it will never change in the USA as long as you guys continue to fight for the scraps. The rest of the world has guys flying 12-15 days a month making $15-20+ grand to do so. As I said in my previous post I retired from that mess a number of years ago. The fighting has not changed only the names did (Piedmont-US Air to American West-US Air.)
Take a small little company like Air Arabia, they started 4 years ago like most of the companies did out side the USA. I mean the Chinese companies (China Southern, China Eastern etc) the Indian companies (Kingfisher, Spice Jet, Indigo etc.) and the Middle East companies (Etihad, Jezzier etc.)
Air Arabia (ABY) had a couple airplanes and flew to a few cities – nothing for those of us in the mega carriers. Inside a few years they had 10 planes and flew to 39 cities. They just ordered 50 planes, paid $3.9 billion CASH and plan to fly to 80 cities in the next 2 years. They started with a dozen plus pilots and today have a couple hundred hiring all the time. 40% of their Captains were F/Os less than 2 years ago. Average pay is over $13,000 tax free per month plus perks. Average price for gas is less than $1.30 per gallon for 93 Octane (lowest available) and tuition for American University at Sharjah (accredited by Middle States Schools and Colleges in association with University of Delaware) is less than $5,000 per semester. Also GWU, George Mason, Boston College, Duke and SUNY are represented at the same price.
Furloughed guys from many carriers flew in this part of the world and while definitely different, no where near what anyone ever had the last 15 years in the USA. Guys that would not see the left seat in ANYTHING were sitting left seat in an A-330 of B-777 after only a few years. It would take them decades to get into the RIGHT seat but now they have time as boss.
Emirates just order some 20 billion dollars worth of planes including the 380 (total 60 planes after their initial order) along with only 11 more 777s. They have a fleet of over a hundred planes where the smallest is an A-330 (except for 2 A-310s for cargo that are going out.)
So while I gave 1% of what is out there, as long as every one of you argues over who gets what and who deserves what, the USA airline management will continue to have you fight over the scraps? The Steven Wolfs of the airline industry will walk away with millions, villas over looking the Seine River and their wine portfolios while pilots will loose their retirements, pay, lifestyles – should I say seniority.
You can blame ALPA (and I have little love for them even though I was a member for over a quarter century) it is not their fault. As my old instructor use to say “S—t or get off the pot!” Maybe it is time for the American aviator to take his services to a part of the world that appreciates it and is willing to pay for it in more ways than the average ALPA pilot could ever imagine. ALPA can not help you nor will it attempt. It will argue like a politician (we all know they are – featherbedding) and attempt to convince one side (the larger or more financially able side) that the other side is wrong and just should shut up and take it. But the ultimate goal is like a virus in the human body – simply perpetuate itself for its own purpose at whatever expense it may take! The Real World without ALPA!
China = 1.5 billion passengers and the world’s second largest economy.
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy.
Shanghai to Mumbai (Bombay) is 2717 nautical miles with 2.7 billion people (44% of the world’s population and 29.1% of the world’s wealth.) Moscow-Shanghai-Mumbai triangle has 3.2 billion people (50 %+) of the world’s population with 59% of the world’s 2007 economic growth. USA <2%, Europe <3% and China 13+%, India 11+% Russia 7.3%. Throw in the Middle East and while the population only goes up slightly the economics leaps to over 71%. Cheap Oil too!
BTW load factors of all carriers mentioned above is greater that 85% year over year.
Guys and gals the world is wide open and would really like to see you guys do what is necessary to protect your – our – profession. I have done what I could and as many say, one man yelling is like “pis-ing in the wind.” Well it seems that more are feeling that anger. It is not the AMW or AAA guy that is the problem. It is what the aviation system has degenerated into in the USA. We are not the threats at security nor are we the enemy to our passengers. The system has portrayed each and every one of us as such and the only recourse we feel we have is to fight with each other. But I suggest we have another option. Take our football and leave the field. Maybe then, when the pulling guard has left the field, will the rest of the team (and fans – passengers) understand that the 400 pounder was the guy that allowed the half back to get through the line?
Burners and Out!
This is the fundamental problem with ALPA and every other concept in American aviation. The fact is that YOUR skills ARE TRANSFERABLE just no one tells you so! A-320 Captains can make 200K a year after taxes. They can live in 4000 sq ft villas paid for by the company. They can receive 30-50K a year bonuses and stock GRANTS that only senior management receives in the USA. The problem is everyone argues about the scraps like a bunch of seagulls on the beach. Multiply the dollars for the larger equipment, but the facts are true. Here are a few websites to look at but guys until you take your services away from the folks in charge you will NEVER GET PAID WHAT YOU DESERVE!
Gulf Air = $10,000+ per month for sitting home (max 14K+ excluding housing.) http://www.arabianbusiness.com/49598...in-20mn-scheme
Emirates $8,000+ per month basic + housing etc apx value $14K plus flight pay. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a.../emirates.html
Etihad = $12,500+ per month + flight pay and mortgage payment.
Air Arabia = $11,100+ per month + flight pay. http://www.airarabia.com/documents/a...package_en.pdf
All of these include educations allowance that totals about 28-35K a year for private schooling for your kids. Free medical using USA, UK or German doctors and hospitals. Not to mention 45 days vacations a year to start, retirement, stock (for some companies) bonus etc. It is normal for Captains to make $13-15K a month ($16-18K with schooling and $17-20K for flying 90hrs/mo) for flying a B-737 or A-320. Not much difference for a B-777 or A-340 (or 380 for that matter.)
ALL TAX FREE AND NO DUES!
Go to Asiana, Cathy, Eva and do the same. Put in India and you will find it far more lucrative with guys flying A-340s making $15-17K a month. Want to fly an A-380 for Kingfisher, you have some heavy time, you could make a deal for well into the $25K range a month. http://www.flykingfisher.com/careers.asp Want to fly an A-340 for Jet Airways to London? Ok you could command $20K a month and a base NOT IN INDIA but Europe. http://www.jetairways.com/Cultures/e...t+Application/
Guys the opportunities are unbelievable, but it will never change in the USA as long as you guys continue to fight for the scraps. The rest of the world has guys flying 12-15 days a month making $15-20+ grand to do so. As I said in my previous post I retired from that mess a number of years ago. The fighting has not changed only the names did (Piedmont-US Air to American West-US Air.)
Take a small little company like Air Arabia, they started 4 years ago like most of the companies did out side the USA. I mean the Chinese companies (China Southern, China Eastern etc) the Indian companies (Kingfisher, Spice Jet, Indigo etc.) and the Middle East companies (Etihad, Jezzier etc.)
Air Arabia (ABY) had a couple airplanes and flew to a few cities – nothing for those of us in the mega carriers. Inside a few years they had 10 planes and flew to 39 cities. They just ordered 50 planes, paid $3.9 billion CASH and plan to fly to 80 cities in the next 2 years. They started with a dozen plus pilots and today have a couple hundred hiring all the time. 40% of their Captains were F/Os less than 2 years ago. Average pay is over $13,000 tax free per month plus perks. Average price for gas is less than $1.30 per gallon for 93 Octane (lowest available) and tuition for American University at Sharjah (accredited by Middle States Schools and Colleges in association with University of Delaware) is less than $5,000 per semester. Also GWU, George Mason, Boston College, Duke and SUNY are represented at the same price.
Furloughed guys from many carriers flew in this part of the world and while definitely different, no where near what anyone ever had the last 15 years in the USA. Guys that would not see the left seat in ANYTHING were sitting left seat in an A-330 of B-777 after only a few years. It would take them decades to get into the RIGHT seat but now they have time as boss.
Emirates just order some 20 billion dollars worth of planes including the 380 (total 60 planes after their initial order) along with only 11 more 777s. They have a fleet of over a hundred planes where the smallest is an A-330 (except for 2 A-310s for cargo that are going out.)
So while I gave 1% of what is out there, as long as every one of you argues over who gets what and who deserves what, the USA airline management will continue to have you fight over the scraps? The Steven Wolfs of the airline industry will walk away with millions, villas over looking the Seine River and their wine portfolios while pilots will loose their retirements, pay, lifestyles – should I say seniority.
You can blame ALPA (and I have little love for them even though I was a member for over a quarter century) it is not their fault. As my old instructor use to say “S—t or get off the pot!” Maybe it is time for the American aviator to take his services to a part of the world that appreciates it and is willing to pay for it in more ways than the average ALPA pilot could ever imagine. ALPA can not help you nor will it attempt. It will argue like a politician (we all know they are – featherbedding) and attempt to convince one side (the larger or more financially able side) that the other side is wrong and just should shut up and take it. But the ultimate goal is like a virus in the human body – simply perpetuate itself for its own purpose at whatever expense it may take! The Real World without ALPA!
China = 1.5 billion passengers and the world’s second largest economy.
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy.
Shanghai to Mumbai (Bombay) is 2717 nautical miles with 2.7 billion people (44% of the world’s population and 29.1% of the world’s wealth.) Moscow-Shanghai-Mumbai triangle has 3.2 billion people (50 %+) of the world’s population with 59% of the world’s 2007 economic growth. USA <2%, Europe <3% and China 13+%, India 11+% Russia 7.3%. Throw in the Middle East and while the population only goes up slightly the economics leaps to over 71%. Cheap Oil too!
BTW load factors of all carriers mentioned above is greater that 85% year over year.
Guys and gals the world is wide open and would really like to see you guys do what is necessary to protect your – our – profession. I have done what I could and as many say, one man yelling is like “pis-ing in the wind.” Well it seems that more are feeling that anger. It is not the AMW or AAA guy that is the problem. It is what the aviation system has degenerated into in the USA. We are not the threats at security nor are we the enemy to our passengers. The system has portrayed each and every one of us as such and the only recourse we feel we have is to fight with each other. But I suggest we have another option. Take our football and leave the field. Maybe then, when the pulling guard has left the field, will the rest of the team (and fans – passengers) understand that the 400 pounder was the guy that allowed the half back to get through the line?
Burners and Out!
Interesting, maybe light at the end of the tunnel
Not sure if it is new but at least some are seeing the light.
Senority works for safety and scheduling purposes but makes pilots into serfs. Management must love it like nothing else. Try this pay cutting crap with a union plumber and see how far you get. He doesn't care he will just cross the street.
AA managers got bonuses to stay around because they have (or were precieved to have) skills that were portable. Show me the money or I walk and the guys above believe the threat. The pilots get walked over because they lash themselves to the mast with elaborate pay plans based on senority (and not incidentally screwing the guys at the bottom with the promise that when you are on top you can screw the newbies too).
It is going to be a big leap but Pilots are going to have to either get out of town or find some way to make their skills portable in the job market. If not the beating will continue.
20driver
Senority works for safety and scheduling purposes but makes pilots into serfs. Management must love it like nothing else. Try this pay cutting crap with a union plumber and see how far you get. He doesn't care he will just cross the street.
AA managers got bonuses to stay around because they have (or were precieved to have) skills that were portable. Show me the money or I walk and the guys above believe the threat. The pilots get walked over because they lash themselves to the mast with elaborate pay plans based on senority (and not incidentally screwing the guys at the bottom with the promise that when you are on top you can screw the newbies too).
It is going to be a big leap but Pilots are going to have to either get out of town or find some way to make their skills portable in the job market. If not the beating will continue.
20driver
None but a blockhead
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"China = 1.5 billion passengers and the world’s second largest economy.
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy."
Such things are notoriously difficult to define. However, even Ryanair would be hard pushed to get enough money out of 1.5 billion Chinese, 1.2 billion Indians or half a billion FSUvians to define them all as potential (let alone actual) passengers. If you want a plausible definition of where the bodies are, what sort of money they might have in their pockets, and how they're thinking of spending it when they've fed, clothed and taught their kids, take a look at the various 'next billion' analyses that the mobile phone industry currently churns out.
See you in Shenzhen...
R
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy."
Such things are notoriously difficult to define. However, even Ryanair would be hard pushed to get enough money out of 1.5 billion Chinese, 1.2 billion Indians or half a billion FSUvians to define them all as potential (let alone actual) passengers. If you want a plausible definition of where the bodies are, what sort of money they might have in their pockets, and how they're thinking of spending it when they've fed, clothed and taught their kids, take a look at the various 'next billion' analyses that the mobile phone industry currently churns out.
See you in Shenzhen...
R
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It is going to be a big leap but Pilots are going to have to either get out of town or find some way to make their skills portable in the job market.
A side benefit (usually) is no tax due.
A superb arrangement.
Take the kids with you...they will normally receive a better education anyway with the added benefit of a couple of extra languages.
Leave behind the silly fools to fight it out.
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Here are a few websites to look at but guys until you take your services away from the folks in charge you will NEVER GET PAID WHAT YOU DESERVE!
Of course, being an American, I'd rather have a 4000 sq. ft. house paid for by me than a "villa" (read tacky apartment with cheap furniture) paid for by the company. I've tried it both ways.
The rest of the world has guys flying 12-15 days a month making $15-20+ grand to do so.
Expat flying for an American is kinda like patriotism, the last refuge...
Last edited by Airbubba; 17th Nov 2007 at 14:30.
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I don't know if XL5 is...but I am.
I wish I were a spaceman, the fastest guy alive, I'd fly you 'round the universe in Fireball XL5.
supercar etc
I wish I were a spaceman, the fastest guy alive, I'd fly you 'round the universe in Fireball XL5.
supercar etc
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I Respectfully Disagree!
Self Loading Freight
I beg to disagree with you. Obviously you have no idea of the spending capability of the people I mentioned. Please look at the profits of the airlines serving these passengers. $100s of millions of dollars in net profits is the norm. They have quite a bit of spending power, a lot more than mom and pop who travels on Thanksgiving expecting French Wine with their $29 ticket!
Airbubba
Unfortunately you do not understand what the guys in DXB do. No they do not withhold their services as you suggest, they simply take them to someone who pays them appropriately. EK currently has about 1500-1800 pilots however, they have averaged hiring about 30 pilots a month for the last 5 years. In 03 we had about 900 (my seniority was 896.) Now you do the math. 30 a month for 4 years+ is 1,440+ pilots. Add that to 900 and you have 2,300 pilots. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OTHER 500-800 PILOTS? THEY QUIT!
They took their services to other carriers. In 2006 we had about 30 TRIs (check airmen) leave the company and take their services elsewhere for personal reasons. The Chief Pilot, the Fleet Manager all took their services elsewhere. So unlike your thinking it is not about “withholding your services” and seeing what it will get. It is about taking your services to the carrier that will give you what you deserve. People change carriers the way you change your underwear – and that gives you POWER!
As for the salary, please look at my example correctly. I did not say EK paid that much (although they are close) but I said airlines paid that much. Personally I feel EK is a shinny apple; nice on the outside and rotten to the core on the inside. Bite into it and you get a mouth full of worms. However, there are many other carriers that do pay that much – EK is loosing it shirt to them on a daily basis. Look at some of the other carriers, I sent you their web pages, which clearly show their pay scales. Take a look!
At tiny Air Arabia a Captain with 2000 hours in type can make 40K+ AED per month for sitting at home – that’s $11K US. Flight pay is paid differently than in the USA for it is paid ABOVE your basic. That means you do NOT have to fly a present number of hours to reach that minimum. You fly ONE hour and you get paid ONE hour above your minimum. It is a progressive scale so the more you fly the higher your hourly rate. Once again look at tiny ABY (a small fish in this ocean.) Fly over 50 hours and you get 120 an hour, over 75 and it is 240 an hour. And that is CREDITED time, not actual. A 5hour 10 minute night flight pays 9 hours credit. It is easy to make 130-150 hours pay time a month – AND REMEMBER THIS IS THE SMALL FISH.
While I agree EK, with its arrogance does not match the rest that does not mean the rest do not exist. The mentality you portray is that which existed in72 when Southwest started – tell me about those 70s guy’s retirement today!
Now you mentioned the housing. That is a problem each pilot has to deal with. You mention villas that you imply are lousy. Well I completely disagree with you but that is personal so I will not argue your personal needs. I will say this. Obviously you have some information on the housing allowance received here. Do you know that EY give the pilot the option? He can take 120K AED (about $33,000 US) a year and apply it to his personal home. I mean BUY IT! Get an extremely low interest loan and buy your own home. So if your home is a mess well that is what you choose. NO WAY DOES EK, EY, G9, or anyone else REQUIRES YOU TO TAKE THE COMPANY HOUSING! But the housing is not all that bad either. As for furniture, well you can take the company furniture or YOU CAN TAKE THE CASH AND BUY YOUR OWN STUFF – or bring it from the USA – they pay for that too.
Please guys and gals I do not want to make it sound like nirvana, but compared to what you argue it is. We can’t get two pilots to agree on when to put the gear down so there will always be dissent. Except for flying airplanes, bitch is what we do best! However, I stand by my points!
You have the lead, burners and out!
I beg to disagree with you. Obviously you have no idea of the spending capability of the people I mentioned. Please look at the profits of the airlines serving these passengers. $100s of millions of dollars in net profits is the norm. They have quite a bit of spending power, a lot more than mom and pop who travels on Thanksgiving expecting French Wine with their $29 ticket!
Airbubba
Unfortunately you do not understand what the guys in DXB do. No they do not withhold their services as you suggest, they simply take them to someone who pays them appropriately. EK currently has about 1500-1800 pilots however, they have averaged hiring about 30 pilots a month for the last 5 years. In 03 we had about 900 (my seniority was 896.) Now you do the math. 30 a month for 4 years+ is 1,440+ pilots. Add that to 900 and you have 2,300 pilots. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OTHER 500-800 PILOTS? THEY QUIT!
They took their services to other carriers. In 2006 we had about 30 TRIs (check airmen) leave the company and take their services elsewhere for personal reasons. The Chief Pilot, the Fleet Manager all took their services elsewhere. So unlike your thinking it is not about “withholding your services” and seeing what it will get. It is about taking your services to the carrier that will give you what you deserve. People change carriers the way you change your underwear – and that gives you POWER!
As for the salary, please look at my example correctly. I did not say EK paid that much (although they are close) but I said airlines paid that much. Personally I feel EK is a shinny apple; nice on the outside and rotten to the core on the inside. Bite into it and you get a mouth full of worms. However, there are many other carriers that do pay that much – EK is loosing it shirt to them on a daily basis. Look at some of the other carriers, I sent you their web pages, which clearly show their pay scales. Take a look!
At tiny Air Arabia a Captain with 2000 hours in type can make 40K+ AED per month for sitting at home – that’s $11K US. Flight pay is paid differently than in the USA for it is paid ABOVE your basic. That means you do NOT have to fly a present number of hours to reach that minimum. You fly ONE hour and you get paid ONE hour above your minimum. It is a progressive scale so the more you fly the higher your hourly rate. Once again look at tiny ABY (a small fish in this ocean.) Fly over 50 hours and you get 120 an hour, over 75 and it is 240 an hour. And that is CREDITED time, not actual. A 5hour 10 minute night flight pays 9 hours credit. It is easy to make 130-150 hours pay time a month – AND REMEMBER THIS IS THE SMALL FISH.
While I agree EK, with its arrogance does not match the rest that does not mean the rest do not exist. The mentality you portray is that which existed in72 when Southwest started – tell me about those 70s guy’s retirement today!
Now you mentioned the housing. That is a problem each pilot has to deal with. You mention villas that you imply are lousy. Well I completely disagree with you but that is personal so I will not argue your personal needs. I will say this. Obviously you have some information on the housing allowance received here. Do you know that EY give the pilot the option? He can take 120K AED (about $33,000 US) a year and apply it to his personal home. I mean BUY IT! Get an extremely low interest loan and buy your own home. So if your home is a mess well that is what you choose. NO WAY DOES EK, EY, G9, or anyone else REQUIRES YOU TO TAKE THE COMPANY HOUSING! But the housing is not all that bad either. As for furniture, well you can take the company furniture or YOU CAN TAKE THE CASH AND BUY YOUR OWN STUFF – or bring it from the USA – they pay for that too.
Please guys and gals I do not want to make it sound like nirvana, but compared to what you argue it is. We can’t get two pilots to agree on when to put the gear down so there will always be dissent. Except for flying airplanes, bitch is what we do best! However, I stand by my points!
You have the lead, burners and out!
