ALPA National Raids USAIRWAYS KPIT OFFICE!
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pantload:
well, according to EAST...it does not follow alpa merger policy and didn't even include some pilots that were on the seniority list.
WEST of course believes that it follows alpa merger policy to a tee.
there might be a court trial about it...
one might also look at the history of nicolau, the arbitraitor. he was fired by the NHL I think.
oh well.
one must wonder why the AFA (flight attendants union) simply went date of hire, and the pilots don't.
well, according to EAST...it does not follow alpa merger policy and didn't even include some pilots that were on the seniority list.
WEST of course believes that it follows alpa merger policy to a tee.
there might be a court trial about it...
one might also look at the history of nicolau, the arbitraitor. he was fired by the NHL I think.
oh well.
one must wonder why the AFA (flight attendants union) simply went date of hire, and the pilots don't.
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Thanks...
Sevenstrokeroll,
Yes, that's interesting...I'd like someone on this forum to excerpt the merger policy for us all to read.
If the award does not meet the criteria of the merger policy (coupled with the rumor that the arbitrator was canned), I would think there is a solid basis for a suit. (I am not a labor attorney.)
The flight attendants have always done better than pilots...it's because pilots typically have no [guts] compared to the flight attendants. If anyone reading this last sentence doesn't believe this...just look at what happened at American Airlines a few years back. (Never XXXX off a woman!!!!!)
PantLoad
Yes, that's interesting...I'd like someone on this forum to excerpt the merger policy for us all to read.
If the award does not meet the criteria of the merger policy (coupled with the rumor that the arbitrator was canned), I would think there is a solid basis for a suit. (I am not a labor attorney.)
The flight attendants have always done better than pilots...it's because pilots typically have no [guts] compared to the flight attendants. If anyone reading this last sentence doesn't believe this...just look at what happened at American Airlines a few years back. (Never XXXX off a woman!!!!!)
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...initially fought with Carl Icahn (the white knight who had saved TWA pilots from Lorenzo)...
One must remember than Lorenzo actually did save Continental from an early demise, and of course ALPA resisted aplenty, yet continue to reap the rewards...well, some of 'em anyway, the ones that were smart enough not to have walked out.
Alpa is its own worst enemy. and will likely never learn from past misdeeds.
The silly fools.
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the union (USAPA) which plans to oust alpa at usairways has almost 3000 signed cards that will soon be filed with the labor board...this number of cards indicates a MAJORITY of all pilots at usair...both east and west. a vote will likely be along the lines of these cards.
ALPA national is probably very worried right now about losing over 11 million US dollars a year in dues when USAIR changes unions. It is not a done deal yet, but be sure to stay tuned.
A revolution is starting boys and girls...keep a listening watch...
ALPA national is probably very worried right now about losing over 11 million US dollars a year in dues when USAIR changes unions. It is not a done deal yet, but be sure to stay tuned.
A revolution is starting boys and girls...keep a listening watch...
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21st Century mergers, north and south
Found some comments on this century's mergers. Seems pilots these days no longer hold any concept of the original "seniority" concept -- but for some reason still want to preserve the words "Seniority List". The future of any old fashioned labor ideals seems mostly dead, judging from comments of 21Century pilots; also interesting to contrast the north-south differences over worker-rights and mergers:
The PacWest/ CPAir ... AC merger ...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=7&gl=us
[ca 2006]
“... The controversy over seniority has continued for more than 5 years and, if anything, the rancour associated with it appears to have intensified overtime. The lesson to be learned from this whole experience is that competing employee groups must reach a compromise on seniority, an issue which they largely own, because the success rate of third parties finding a satisfactory resolution is not impressive....”
“The “Original Air Canada” Pilots ...” [ca 2006]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...iority%2C+list
American Pilots view ... merger [ca 2001]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...erican%2C+ALPA
The PacWest/ CPAir ... AC merger ...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=7&gl=us
[ca 2006]
“... The controversy over seniority has continued for more than 5 years and, if anything, the rancour associated with it appears to have intensified overtime. The lesson to be learned from this whole experience is that competing employee groups must reach a compromise on seniority, an issue which they largely own, because the success rate of third parties finding a satisfactory resolution is not impressive....”
“The “Original Air Canada” Pilots ...” [ca 2006]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...iority%2C+list
American Pilots view ... merger [ca 2001]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...erican%2C+ALPA
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The pilots have little or nothing to do with the finances, and snapshot relative strength of merging companies. It was just as hard to get hired at TWA or PanAm in 1975 as it was to get hired at American in 1985.
My point is, I think there's too much battle done between pilot groups when a merger occurs for the purpose of relative benefit, and the spoils tend to go to the larger or more aggressive group, regardless of national union affiliation, or not.
Wouldn't it be better if we sought the fair solution rather than the one that lines our own pockets best?
I don't know the perfect way to do it, but I suggest a seniority blend based essentially on hourly pay rate, adjusted for fair value of such things as pension disparities, guarantee differences, etc.
Airline mergers present difficult times for the pilots of each group. In the past when I've heard the aggressive calls to 'Staple 'em', I've thought to myself, how crass and selfish. Instant karma's going to get you.
Isn't the right and noble thing to do to speak out for the fair blending of seniority lists, and reap the benefits over the years of having a more unified combined pilot group rather than one smug group of 'winners', and an angry group with a bone to pick?
I've never been in a merger, but I see the possibility in the not to distant future. And I've been around long enough to know that today's strong airline could very well be tomorrow's sick man, and vice-versa.
Every pilot, from commuter FO to wide-body captain, is my brother in aviation. I hope when I am at your mercy you will think likewise of me. Our profession has or will confront all of us with insecurity, frustration, and a lot of dues-paying. I see no sense in preying on each other.
My point is, I think there's too much battle done between pilot groups when a merger occurs for the purpose of relative benefit, and the spoils tend to go to the larger or more aggressive group, regardless of national union affiliation, or not.
Wouldn't it be better if we sought the fair solution rather than the one that lines our own pockets best?
I don't know the perfect way to do it, but I suggest a seniority blend based essentially on hourly pay rate, adjusted for fair value of such things as pension disparities, guarantee differences, etc.
Airline mergers present difficult times for the pilots of each group. In the past when I've heard the aggressive calls to 'Staple 'em', I've thought to myself, how crass and selfish. Instant karma's going to get you.
Isn't the right and noble thing to do to speak out for the fair blending of seniority lists, and reap the benefits over the years of having a more unified combined pilot group rather than one smug group of 'winners', and an angry group with a bone to pick?
I've never been in a merger, but I see the possibility in the not to distant future. And I've been around long enough to know that today's strong airline could very well be tomorrow's sick man, and vice-versa.
Every pilot, from commuter FO to wide-body captain, is my brother in aviation. I hope when I am at your mercy you will think likewise of me. Our profession has or will confront all of us with insecurity, frustration, and a lot of dues-paying. I see no sense in preying on each other.
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preying on each other:
does it make any sense to make someone who has been an ATP for 2 years the captain, while someone who has been an atp for 20 years the copilot?
does it make sense to make someone with 10 years left before retirement junior to someone who has 30 years to go?
of course not. but that is what happened in this case.
don't think it can't happen to your airline...and don't think that KARMA doesn't come round to correct wrongs.
does it make any sense to make someone who has been an ATP for 2 years the captain, while someone who has been an atp for 20 years the copilot?
does it make sense to make someone with 10 years left before retirement junior to someone who has 30 years to go?
of course not. but that is what happened in this case.
don't think it can't happen to your airline...and don't think that KARMA doesn't come round to correct wrongs.
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An Old Guy's View
Hired over two and a half decades ago at US Air I went through two mergers – PSA and Piedmont. Fortunately for me I retired (after pension abrogation) before this current mess. There has been a lot of good and some misstated info on this subject. US Air was a money making machine! In 1989 it was number one in the USA for total passengers carried. Yes above Delta, United and even American!
In an effort to forgo the dearth of acquisitions of the 80s US Air HAD to “get rid of its excess cash” to avert the likes of Carl Ichan etal. It was grow or get chewed up. Now many criticize the likes of Ed Colodny and Butch Schofield, but they had to do what the industry dictated them do – spend the cash and grow the airline.
In fairness to them (Butch had 38 years at the company coming up as a bag-smasher to getting an MBA and CEO) they got tired of the BS. That left the company to the sharks. Rocky and Bullwinkle (Rakesh and Steven Wolf), never did anything for more than a year David Siegel and the lot. All walking away with tens of millions while putting the company into a mess.
The pilot’s responsibility was never ending. The Civil War continued from 1989 until I retired in 2003. The reasons were many but an underlining factor was that the merger brought a lot of senior pilots from another airline that went under only 7 years earlier (Braniff in 1982.) Piedmont grew very fast as a result of having an available group of highly skilled pilots from the defunct Braniff Airlines. These pilots, starting again at the bottom of the list, saw Piedmont as their last stance. The mainly younger pilots of PSA and US Air (with an equal amount of seniority in their airline) saw them as peers; however, the mainly older and more experienced Piedmont/Braniff pilots saw it differently. Let the war begin!
The company attempted to appease all with higher pay for the “Southern Division” and continued growth for all but that did not satisfy the majority. 14 years after the merger the majority of pilots in CLT were former Piedmont while the majority of pilots in PIT were still US Air. It took only a couple years for the PSA pilots to assimilate into the ranks of US Air as did the Eastern pilots with the Trump Shuttle merger, but the Piedmont guys just had a really hard time with it.
Not pointing fingers but simply pointing facts!
When AAA got the bean counters and dysfunctional management that happened in the 90s all came to a stop. Those without a chair were left out and some (after 10-15 years) found themselves at the bottom of the list. The battle became even bitterer. Braniff pilots on their last leg (in their late 50s) found themselves flying 737s instead of the DC-8 they flew 20 years earlier. We all know about size and pay with regard to airplanes. US Air guys who went from the right seat in a BAC-1-11 to captain on a 727 in 3 years too were halted. While younger, they had visions of sugar plumbs and candy canes that turned into 6 leg F-100s and DC-9s. The airline’s internal mess turned into a bastion of discontent and dismay.
Management took complete advantage of this situation putting the Northern Division against the Southern Division – the Civil War! Miami pilots found themselves in Syracuse NY. San Diego pilots found themselves in PHL and BOS. Captains on wide bodies went back to right seat on narrow bodies in order to hold a block. 20 years found you a reserve 73 Captain or 76 F/O. Anger flowed like the tide in San Francisco Bay.
911, restructuring, mergers have all passed; but the mess still exists. There are PSA pilots currently flying that remember when American West flew their first flight in 1983. They also remember when AWA almost went out of business with their B-747 fiasco.
Now this thread has used the word “Fair” many times. What does that truly mean? On January 1 1984 (when AWA was only 4 months old) they had about 45 pilots flying the line. That same day PSA had 285 pilots on their seniority list. Piedmont had about 1450 and US Air had 1600. Do the math! There were 75 eventual US Air pilots for every 1 American West pilot. Now when the mergers happened (in 88 for PSA and 89 for Piedmont) the numbers were higher (850 PSA, 2400+ Piedmont & 2600 US Air) but what is fair?
I remember when a US Air seniority number of 3500 got you the left seat in a DC-9 or B-737: what will that get the guy today – 15 years later? In the early 90s US Air had a total pilot force of over 6500, so once again what is fair? The guy who flew for 3 years then was furloughed for 10 years goes to the bottom 10% to a guy who was in high school when the furloughed pilot was flying for the company? The guy who took the sacrifices for the company is junior to the guy who was trying to fly straight and level? What is fair?
I submit it is not about fair. It is about what is fair to me and we all know me is a selfish animal. Oh me can justify whatever me wants just as the pedophile says “she was looking at me sexy. I knew she wanted me.” The fact that she was 5 years old does not matter to the me for “she was looking at me.”
I have learned all these years that the arguments do not come from actions. They come for the “me” trying to justify their gain. They become more violent when others do not agree with the me. That forces me to rationalize my position with more vigor and become far more demonstrative.
Those on the outside usually use phrases like, well you could be Pan Am or dissolve like Sabena. You should have saved your money for you make a lot. And many more effective adjectives and slogans! Yet unknown to themselves they have become the minions of those very individuals that destroy the profession. The Steven Wolf’s that paint airplanes and change names only to purchase large wine collections when all fails.
Just my 0.25 euros worth from a guy who took his football and left the field and now rides on a retired pass
Burners and Out!
In an effort to forgo the dearth of acquisitions of the 80s US Air HAD to “get rid of its excess cash” to avert the likes of Carl Ichan etal. It was grow or get chewed up. Now many criticize the likes of Ed Colodny and Butch Schofield, but they had to do what the industry dictated them do – spend the cash and grow the airline.
In fairness to them (Butch had 38 years at the company coming up as a bag-smasher to getting an MBA and CEO) they got tired of the BS. That left the company to the sharks. Rocky and Bullwinkle (Rakesh and Steven Wolf), never did anything for more than a year David Siegel and the lot. All walking away with tens of millions while putting the company into a mess.
The pilot’s responsibility was never ending. The Civil War continued from 1989 until I retired in 2003. The reasons were many but an underlining factor was that the merger brought a lot of senior pilots from another airline that went under only 7 years earlier (Braniff in 1982.) Piedmont grew very fast as a result of having an available group of highly skilled pilots from the defunct Braniff Airlines. These pilots, starting again at the bottom of the list, saw Piedmont as their last stance. The mainly younger pilots of PSA and US Air (with an equal amount of seniority in their airline) saw them as peers; however, the mainly older and more experienced Piedmont/Braniff pilots saw it differently. Let the war begin!
The company attempted to appease all with higher pay for the “Southern Division” and continued growth for all but that did not satisfy the majority. 14 years after the merger the majority of pilots in CLT were former Piedmont while the majority of pilots in PIT were still US Air. It took only a couple years for the PSA pilots to assimilate into the ranks of US Air as did the Eastern pilots with the Trump Shuttle merger, but the Piedmont guys just had a really hard time with it.
Not pointing fingers but simply pointing facts!
When AAA got the bean counters and dysfunctional management that happened in the 90s all came to a stop. Those without a chair were left out and some (after 10-15 years) found themselves at the bottom of the list. The battle became even bitterer. Braniff pilots on their last leg (in their late 50s) found themselves flying 737s instead of the DC-8 they flew 20 years earlier. We all know about size and pay with regard to airplanes. US Air guys who went from the right seat in a BAC-1-11 to captain on a 727 in 3 years too were halted. While younger, they had visions of sugar plumbs and candy canes that turned into 6 leg F-100s and DC-9s. The airline’s internal mess turned into a bastion of discontent and dismay.
Management took complete advantage of this situation putting the Northern Division against the Southern Division – the Civil War! Miami pilots found themselves in Syracuse NY. San Diego pilots found themselves in PHL and BOS. Captains on wide bodies went back to right seat on narrow bodies in order to hold a block. 20 years found you a reserve 73 Captain or 76 F/O. Anger flowed like the tide in San Francisco Bay.
911, restructuring, mergers have all passed; but the mess still exists. There are PSA pilots currently flying that remember when American West flew their first flight in 1983. They also remember when AWA almost went out of business with their B-747 fiasco.
Now this thread has used the word “Fair” many times. What does that truly mean? On January 1 1984 (when AWA was only 4 months old) they had about 45 pilots flying the line. That same day PSA had 285 pilots on their seniority list. Piedmont had about 1450 and US Air had 1600. Do the math! There were 75 eventual US Air pilots for every 1 American West pilot. Now when the mergers happened (in 88 for PSA and 89 for Piedmont) the numbers were higher (850 PSA, 2400+ Piedmont & 2600 US Air) but what is fair?
I remember when a US Air seniority number of 3500 got you the left seat in a DC-9 or B-737: what will that get the guy today – 15 years later? In the early 90s US Air had a total pilot force of over 6500, so once again what is fair? The guy who flew for 3 years then was furloughed for 10 years goes to the bottom 10% to a guy who was in high school when the furloughed pilot was flying for the company? The guy who took the sacrifices for the company is junior to the guy who was trying to fly straight and level? What is fair?
I submit it is not about fair. It is about what is fair to me and we all know me is a selfish animal. Oh me can justify whatever me wants just as the pedophile says “she was looking at me sexy. I knew she wanted me.” The fact that she was 5 years old does not matter to the me for “she was looking at me.”
I have learned all these years that the arguments do not come from actions. They come for the “me” trying to justify their gain. They become more violent when others do not agree with the me. That forces me to rationalize my position with more vigor and become far more demonstrative.
Those on the outside usually use phrases like, well you could be Pan Am or dissolve like Sabena. You should have saved your money for you make a lot. And many more effective adjectives and slogans! Yet unknown to themselves they have become the minions of those very individuals that destroy the profession. The Steven Wolf’s that paint airplanes and change names only to purchase large wine collections when all fails.
Just my 0.25 euros worth from a guy who took his football and left the field and now rides on a retired pass
Burners and Out!
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fairness
Remember what you guys and all the hiring in 89 and 90, took/stole from the ALPA merger/fragmentation that theGreat Eastern Airlines had in effect, and you guys ignored it, fought it, and prospert from the failures and set backs from all EAL employees. You deserve what you got!!!!!
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... and the blood continues to flow ...
Sounds like my strange dream of a national seniority list might be a solution ...
xxx
Seniority list based on (?)
- Date of original issue of FAA CPL (or ATP, now, everyone has one), or
- Date of first time hire as pilot by a FAR 121 air carrier...
xxx
Free flow of crews among carriers (?)
- You are unhappy with DAL, you resign, apply with UAL and get hired when openings exist within the above seniority system... to the position and aircraft type within your seniority (since you still practice "big iron = big money system"), or
- Like some foreign carriers, salary based on seniority and position, regardless of type of aircraft.
- And for the young ones, decent first year salary, above poverty level and food stamps.
Sorry - ex PanAmigo dixit... Amen
xxx
What a mess in Disneyland - Glad I am in the Pampas...
What do you expect from CEOs/MECs like Mickey, Donald and Goofy... ?
xxx
Happy contrails
Sounds like my strange dream of a national seniority list might be a solution ...
xxx
Seniority list based on (?)
- Date of original issue of FAA CPL (or ATP, now, everyone has one), or
- Date of first time hire as pilot by a FAR 121 air carrier...
xxx
Free flow of crews among carriers (?)
- You are unhappy with DAL, you resign, apply with UAL and get hired when openings exist within the above seniority system... to the position and aircraft type within your seniority (since you still practice "big iron = big money system"), or
- Like some foreign carriers, salary based on seniority and position, regardless of type of aircraft.
- And for the young ones, decent first year salary, above poverty level and food stamps.
Sorry - ex PanAmigo dixit... Amen
xxx
What a mess in Disneyland - Glad I am in the Pampas...
What do you expect from CEOs/MECs like Mickey, Donald and Goofy... ?
xxx
Happy contrails
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Corporate TAKEOVERs: Arbitration the problem or the solution
Several of the messages above offer comments on “mergers” within the airline industry.
But isn’t that word “merger” misleading: have there been any “mergers”? or are these consolidations examples of Corporate Takeovers? Both managements might agree that the corporate “Takeover” is “friendly”, but the employees often perceive their Corporate Takeover as “unfriendly”, worse than the old Lorenzo-style of takeover of the 1980’s.
Several messages above comment on the “mergers” of this century, several messages mention “mergers” or “fragmentations” during the 1980’s -- but there are NO COMPLAINTS about any “mergers” during the 1990’s [there were none].
A “goggle” of the various terms yields several recent stories in the press.
“What Every Pilot Needs to Know About Mergers;” _Air Line Pilot_; May 2006, Vol. 75, No. 5 [pdf]:
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...1316&Tabid=256
One legislative proposal in early Nov07 suggests future binding arbitration over workers retention/displacement totem (the very cause of complaints after the list-mergers at AC and USAir):
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ema...257388000C3B57
“... bill to soften airline merger impact on workers”
By Tim Logan
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Saturday, Nov. 03 2007
“The measure is attached ... giant bill before Congress reauthorizing the Federal Aviation Administration. It has the support of several key lawmakers and some airline-industry unions.... Having a third party sort out seniority ...”
The ALPA Merger/Fragmentation Policy mentions a goal of “fair and equitable”. But some alternative labor groups explicitly preclude management from offering any “fair and equitable” settlement to any takeover target:
“... integrate the ... pilot seniority lists ... in a fair and equitable manner ... does not apply to ... a transaction which includes the acquisition of aircraft and pilots ...”
During a corporate takeover with this labor group, any targeted ALPA-group wouldn’t have any common goals for their soon-to-be “merger” list. Imagine the disadvantage that European pilot-groups might suffer during any Texas-style corporate takeover.
Look at some airline Corporate Takeovers, or acquisitions, of the past few decades. [Were there any “mergers” of airlines in the past few decades? ]
Consider which merger-perspective was more ruthless for the long-time airline workers? Which was more effective at retaining the younger workers? Which was more profitable for the short-time airline workers?
Pilot list? FA list? Mechanics? Furloughs before merger? Post-consolidation displacements? Seniority? or a non-seniority totem with one employee group at the top? Furloughs after merger?
-- Air France / KLM;
--- Lufthansa / Swiss;
-- Austrian / Lauda ;
-- SAS / Brathens;
-- AA / TWA
-- Canadian/ Air Canada;
-- AWA /USAir;
Maybe a more tribal winner-take-all perspective is the only “American” method of constructing any Retention/Furlough totem: integration means insurgents; instead why not a corporate cleansing? Consolidate, then furlough or release older employees when able, with limited furlough rights.
But isn’t that word “merger” misleading: have there been any “mergers”? or are these consolidations examples of Corporate Takeovers? Both managements might agree that the corporate “Takeover” is “friendly”, but the employees often perceive their Corporate Takeover as “unfriendly”, worse than the old Lorenzo-style of takeover of the 1980’s.
Several messages above comment on the “mergers” of this century, several messages mention “mergers” or “fragmentations” during the 1980’s -- but there are NO COMPLAINTS about any “mergers” during the 1990’s [there were none].
A “goggle” of the various terms yields several recent stories in the press.
“What Every Pilot Needs to Know About Mergers;” _Air Line Pilot_; May 2006, Vol. 75, No. 5 [pdf]:
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...1316&Tabid=256
One legislative proposal in early Nov07 suggests future binding arbitration over workers retention/displacement totem (the very cause of complaints after the list-mergers at AC and USAir):
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ema...257388000C3B57
“... bill to soften airline merger impact on workers”
By Tim Logan
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Saturday, Nov. 03 2007
“The measure is attached ... giant bill before Congress reauthorizing the Federal Aviation Administration. It has the support of several key lawmakers and some airline-industry unions.... Having a third party sort out seniority ...”
The ALPA Merger/Fragmentation Policy mentions a goal of “fair and equitable”. But some alternative labor groups explicitly preclude management from offering any “fair and equitable” settlement to any takeover target:
“... integrate the ... pilot seniority lists ... in a fair and equitable manner ... does not apply to ... a transaction which includes the acquisition of aircraft and pilots ...”
During a corporate takeover with this labor group, any targeted ALPA-group wouldn’t have any common goals for their soon-to-be “merger” list. Imagine the disadvantage that European pilot-groups might suffer during any Texas-style corporate takeover.
Look at some airline Corporate Takeovers, or acquisitions, of the past few decades. [Were there any “mergers” of airlines in the past few decades? ]
Consider which merger-perspective was more ruthless for the long-time airline workers? Which was more effective at retaining the younger workers? Which was more profitable for the short-time airline workers?
Pilot list? FA list? Mechanics? Furloughs before merger? Post-consolidation displacements? Seniority? or a non-seniority totem with one employee group at the top? Furloughs after merger?
-- Air France / KLM;
--- Lufthansa / Swiss;
-- Austrian / Lauda ;
-- SAS / Brathens;
-- AA / TWA
-- Canadian/ Air Canada;
-- AWA /USAir;
Maybe a more tribal winner-take-all perspective is the only “American” method of constructing any Retention/Furlough totem: integration means insurgents; instead why not a corporate cleansing? Consolidate, then furlough or release older employees when able, with limited furlough rights.
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It Has Happened...usapa Files Cards Today
Today, Nov 13, 2007, USAPA filed over 3000 cards with the labor relations board calling to decertify ALPA at USAIRWAYS. 3000 is a great majority of all pilots including both east (real usair) and west(america west)
An immediate response from ALPA national was ,in this man's view, weak. Calling for unity and admiting that there was some small chance of overthrowing the unfair seniority award by USAPA. (in the guise of showing how difficult it might be...but it has more of a chance than alpa would give it)
The bell has rung, and it has rung for thee alpa.
An immediate response from ALPA national was ,in this man's view, weak. Calling for unity and admiting that there was some small chance of overthrowing the unfair seniority award by USAPA. (in the guise of showing how difficult it might be...but it has more of a chance than alpa would give it)
The bell has rung, and it has rung for thee alpa.
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Best wishes to the US Airways Pilots!
Mergers are an ugly business. The Air Canada - Canadi>n Airlines merger still carries hard feelings. Almost 8 years later, it is still in front of the Courts.
World War 2 didn't last this long.
Mergers are an ugly business. The Air Canada - Canadi>n Airlines merger still carries hard feelings. Almost 8 years later, it is still in front of the Courts.
World War 2 didn't last this long.
Last edited by Johnny767; 14th Nov 2007 at 21:22.
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thanks johnny 767
ALPA must start to think. With today's announcement that a major stockholder in both Delta and United Airlines indicating a possible, say again POSSIBLE, merger.
ALPA better be ready to reconsider merger issues and return to date of hire.
wake up boys or alpa will be history!
ALPA must start to think. With today's announcement that a major stockholder in both Delta and United Airlines indicating a possible, say again POSSIBLE, merger.
ALPA better be ready to reconsider merger issues and return to date of hire.
wake up boys or alpa will be history!
Another question is this:
Were another union to replace ALPA at two or more airlines, would that new union create a so-called 'national seniority list'? It is quite doubtful, because pilot Merger Representatives at any airline (whose airline name survives the merger etc) try to delude themselves into believing that the Golden Rule does not apply to the pilots at the other airline, despite the fact that the new company is a completely new corporate entity.
The Roberts Award at NWA lasted from about 1989-2006 and a friend there also told me that their Redbook Merger Committee still exists!
Were another union to replace ALPA at two or more airlines, would that new union create a so-called 'national seniority list'? It is quite doubtful, because pilot Merger Representatives at any airline (whose airline name survives the merger etc) try to delude themselves into believing that the Golden Rule does not apply to the pilots at the other airline, despite the fact that the new company is a completely new corporate entity.
The Roberts Award at NWA lasted from about 1989-2006 and a friend there also told me that their Redbook Merger Committee still exists!
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Sevenstrokeroll,
Pretty obvious that you're a USAPA troll, or at least have the bullet points memorized.
For the rest of us some points to remember--
The USAirways Merger Commitee had 18 months to negotiate a seniority integration with the America West pilots. They stuck to a date- of -hire proposal that would have effectively stapled 2/3 of the America West Pilots below USAirways who were furloughed at the time of the merger.
They had a further 3 days of mediation and never came off their original position.
They agreed to BINDING arbitration (following ALPA merger policy) and never moved from their DOH proposal, even after being told by the arbitration panel (read the transcripts Sevenstrokeroll) that their position was untenable.
Now they want to scream that the policy was flawed, it was unfair, the arbitrator was senile (your Merger Comm had a hand in picking this particular man, remember?), etc.,etc.
Don't be fooled.
This is nothing more than a seat grab by a group of petulant children who have decided that the principle of binding arbitration does not apply to them.
USAPA is about an attempt to have the seniority list thrown out and the America West pilots disenfranchised. Nothing more.
Pretty obvious that you're a USAPA troll, or at least have the bullet points memorized.
For the rest of us some points to remember--
The USAirways Merger Commitee had 18 months to negotiate a seniority integration with the America West pilots. They stuck to a date- of -hire proposal that would have effectively stapled 2/3 of the America West Pilots below USAirways who were furloughed at the time of the merger.
They had a further 3 days of mediation and never came off their original position.
They agreed to BINDING arbitration (following ALPA merger policy) and never moved from their DOH proposal, even after being told by the arbitration panel (read the transcripts Sevenstrokeroll) that their position was untenable.
Now they want to scream that the policy was flawed, it was unfair, the arbitrator was senile (your Merger Comm had a hand in picking this particular man, remember?), etc.,etc.
Don't be fooled.
This is nothing more than a seat grab by a group of petulant children who have decided that the principle of binding arbitration does not apply to them.
USAPA is about an attempt to have the seniority list thrown out and the America West pilots disenfranchised. Nothing more.
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5030N, the fact that Sevenstrokeroll is a proponent of "Date of Hire," hardly makes him a Troll.
DOH is EVERYTHING to a Pilot!
Is it any wonder we are being raped by the Airline managers, when we are happy to sodomize each other.
Imagine what a Boeing 777 Captain would earn, if his skill was transferable and not tied to one Airline and one Seniority list?
DOH is EVERYTHING to a Pilot!
Is it any wonder we are being raped by the Airline managers, when we are happy to sodomize each other.
Imagine what a Boeing 777 Captain would earn, if his skill was transferable and not tied to one Airline and one Seniority list?