KLM crew report pilots drunk
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Would have helped if a second opinion had been gained from another member of crew, but as already said, this may have been done......we don't yet know the facts.
As with all serious related flight issues its better to speak up, there are just many ways of doing it!!
As with all serious related flight issues its better to speak up, there are just many ways of doing it!!
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Originally Posted by Rumble
This almost happened to me in AMS when a dispatcher told her supervisor she was upset about the "strong smell of alcohol" from the cockpit. She did exactly the right thing and I had no problem with her actions. She was happily placated when we gave her one of the headset sani-wipes we were using to smell and she realized that they were the source of her qualms.
http://www.cleaner-systems.co.uk/Scr...p?idproduct=21
No more cover-ups for smells from the flask (JOKING!)
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Just to clear up the CRM issue!
CRM has nothing to do with political correctness,however it is often mistaken as such. CRM is about communication and therefore communication should be direct. i.e. The first person to be consulted should be the person under suspicion, if the matter is not resolved then the problem should be taken up a level internally(within the company concerned) before involving a sneaky call to the authorities. One of the most basic elements of CRM is trust and all crew should bear this in mind before involving outsiders.
A definition of CRM for those that don't understand!
The best use of all available resouces to achieve safe and efficient flight!
Good manners is a great starting point!
Trust amongst the crew is another!
Clear and open lines of communication are vital!
Back biting and under handed reporting have absolutley no place in CRM what so ever!
Ps. The purser is not an executve crew member, the purser is merely carrying out duties under the authority of the Captain. The Captain is the only executive crew member on board the aircraft, after him/her there is a chain of command starting at the first officer and working downwards from there!
Whislt I always value the input of the crew on board my aircraft I am concerned at the lack of respect show to Captains by cabin crew. CRM is often used as an excuse for this lack of respect. On the flip side I appreciate that there are still one or two Captains out there that need to work on keeping the respect given to them when they are promoted into the role.
CRM has nothing to do with political correctness,however it is often mistaken as such. CRM is about communication and therefore communication should be direct. i.e. The first person to be consulted should be the person under suspicion, if the matter is not resolved then the problem should be taken up a level internally(within the company concerned) before involving a sneaky call to the authorities. One of the most basic elements of CRM is trust and all crew should bear this in mind before involving outsiders.
A definition of CRM for those that don't understand!
The best use of all available resouces to achieve safe and efficient flight!
Good manners is a great starting point!
Trust amongst the crew is another!
Clear and open lines of communication are vital!
Back biting and under handed reporting have absolutley no place in CRM what so ever!
Ps. The purser is not an executve crew member, the purser is merely carrying out duties under the authority of the Captain. The Captain is the only executive crew member on board the aircraft, after him/her there is a chain of command starting at the first officer and working downwards from there!
Whislt I always value the input of the crew on board my aircraft I am concerned at the lack of respect show to Captains by cabin crew. CRM is often used as an excuse for this lack of respect. On the flip side I appreciate that there are still one or two Captains out there that need to work on keeping the respect given to them when they are promoted into the role.
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LLuke, just had a look at your profile and as interests you state: Talking a lot without saying anything.
Maybe that explains why you wrote such a strangely suggestive post.
You seem to imply that the (Sr)Purser function should not be executive within the ranks of the cabin crew.
Who within the ranks of the cabin crew do you think should be executive LLuke?
The most junior stewardess?
The stewardess with the shortest skirt?
The biggest chest?
The steward with the sharpest haircut?
Don’t be shy, enlighten us.
In the mean time, since you obviously either have issues with, or are unclear on matters regarding the chain of command on company aircraft, I recommend that you re-familiarize yourself with B.O.M. 1.4 and 1.5.
That should set you straight.
What with the Telegraaf being a scandal mongering tabloid known for whipping up frenzies to keep the bored amused, I would not stake my wings on the accuracy of this story BTW.
If it did happen as stated, it is extremely unfortunate, shows a total communication-breakdown between cockpit and cabin crew and could cause damage to the mutual trust that is so beneficial to a safe operation.
Maybe that explains why you wrote such a strangely suggestive post.
You seem to imply that the (Sr)Purser function should not be executive within the ranks of the cabin crew.
Who within the ranks of the cabin crew do you think should be executive LLuke?
The most junior stewardess?
The stewardess with the shortest skirt?
The biggest chest?
The steward with the sharpest haircut?
Don’t be shy, enlighten us.
In the mean time, since you obviously either have issues with, or are unclear on matters regarding the chain of command on company aircraft, I recommend that you re-familiarize yourself with B.O.M. 1.4 and 1.5.
That should set you straight.
What with the Telegraaf being a scandal mongering tabloid known for whipping up frenzies to keep the bored amused, I would not stake my wings on the accuracy of this story BTW.
If it did happen as stated, it is extremely unfortunate, shows a total communication-breakdown between cockpit and cabin crew and could cause damage to the mutual trust that is so beneficial to a safe operation.
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Good CRM between CC and flightcrew cannot be overstated.......
If this report paints an accurate picture of the events, I personally would be disappointed at the actions of the CC.
Good CRM to me would have involved the CC member having a brief chat discreetly, and asking the question...for no other reason than to air their concerns in a constructive fashion. If then, suitably convinced...the phonecall to the number would have been appropriate....but as is often the case, procedures such as these are often used as an excuse to persue a personal agenda. In this case I have no idea...but it has been my experience that certain CC members display personality traits and persue personal agendas that involve the fabrication of events/actions in order to show their performance in the best possible light...often at the expense of both CC and flightcrew.
Its the age old problem of flighcrew vs CC etc when the reality is that we are ALL crew working towards the same outcome.
If this report paints an accurate picture of the events, I personally would be disappointed at the actions of the CC.
Good CRM to me would have involved the CC member having a brief chat discreetly, and asking the question...for no other reason than to air their concerns in a constructive fashion. If then, suitably convinced...the phonecall to the number would have been appropriate....but as is often the case, procedures such as these are often used as an excuse to persue a personal agenda. In this case I have no idea...but it has been my experience that certain CC members display personality traits and persue personal agendas that involve the fabrication of events/actions in order to show their performance in the best possible light...often at the expense of both CC and flightcrew.
Its the age old problem of flighcrew vs CC etc when the reality is that we are ALL crew working towards the same outcome.
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Written by Juud:
"Don’t be shy, enlighten us."
Unless you reply was meant for "unablereqnavperf" I am not sure I understand your post. Enlighten what?
OK, for the third time: Inside KLM the purser function is considered an executive function.
Please don't suggest I am saying anything else. That would be rather unpolite and ignorant.
P.S. A bit cheap to quote from my profile, while yours is totally empty.
"Don’t be shy, enlighten us."
Unless you reply was meant for "unablereqnavperf" I am not sure I understand your post. Enlighten what?
OK, for the third time: Inside KLM the purser function is considered an executive function.
Please don't suggest I am saying anything else. That would be rather unpolite and ignorant.
P.S. A bit cheap to quote from my profile, while yours is totally empty.
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Dear Judd,
I believe that LLuke was simply stating the facts and there was no need for you to take such exception to his post.
CRM works both ways. There is no reason to suspect that, within the cocoon of the Cabin hidden out there behind us on the other side of the bulletproof and electronically dead bolted cockpit door, there might not exist the Pursers' equivalent of an overbearing Capt. Van Zanten. Following his or her own guiding light without consulting others may have led to this unfortunate circumstance.
Please accept that this environment can and does exist in today's aviation scene.
Crews are being placed under more stress generally (i.e. more flying hours, reduced rest, pay etc.) which can lead to a breakdown in trust in our demanding occupation.
Hope the crew members involved will be able to patch things up quickly and get back to flying with a renewed insight as to their relationship to each other.
All the best to those great professionals on both sides of the divide at KLM.
CANOPUS
I believe that LLuke was simply stating the facts and there was no need for you to take such exception to his post.
CRM works both ways. There is no reason to suspect that, within the cocoon of the Cabin hidden out there behind us on the other side of the bulletproof and electronically dead bolted cockpit door, there might not exist the Pursers' equivalent of an overbearing Capt. Van Zanten. Following his or her own guiding light without consulting others may have led to this unfortunate circumstance.
Please accept that this environment can and does exist in today's aviation scene.
Crews are being placed under more stress generally (i.e. more flying hours, reduced rest, pay etc.) which can lead to a breakdown in trust in our demanding occupation.
Hope the crew members involved will be able to patch things up quickly and get back to flying with a renewed insight as to their relationship to each other.
All the best to those great professionals on both sides of the divide at KLM.
CANOPUS
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Is it just me spotting the uncanny similarities between the "pilots protest over "noxious" air" thread and this one with instances of "strong smelling alcohol type fumes" eminating from the flight deck?
I suggest that the vast majority of noxious and/or alcoholic fumes originate from SLF.
I suggest that the vast majority of noxious and/or alcoholic fumes originate from SLF.
We seem to hear from time to time about cabin crew reporting pilots as 'drunk' or 'under the influence'. I wonder how often Captains report cabin crew as unfit for duty and how often that is reported in the media ?
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I think it's very hard to confront the person under suspicion. Has anyone had any experience in having to confront the pilot? I'm not sure what I would do. How would you word it?
