easyJet Cost Index & Econ Descent
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easyJet Cost Index & Econ Descent
Any one able to shed light on the identy of the "Unknown Aircraft" that stopped you all descending and caused some of you to go into the hold? I was departing north-bound enjoying the fun.
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We had to hold because we were behind two EZY's: the first one doing 265kts in descent, ATC asked the second one if he could fly 320 in order to be number one. He said NO and as a consequence he was slowed down to 220 and we were send in the hold...
Last edited by sarah737; 5th Oct 2007 at 10:18.
It was so obvious that this was going to cause everybody else a headache. The machine wanted us to do 253 kts in descent a few days ago, thankfully ATC wanted us quicker than that.
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easy pilots must realise that you are in command and not the machine! I did 6 years at easy and never done what the machine told me to do! If you leave your decent later and decend with thrust idle the speed is irrelevant! common sense and airmanship will always truimph over machinery!
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Unable.....
I know what you are saying, and don't think it doesn't cross everybody's mind - but we have an edict from high up that we MUST fly CI in the climb, cruise and descent unless absolutely necessary (ie ATC request) - so just to decide from a simple airmanship view to speed up is not an option now.
This is a new drive along with all the others about saving on fuel costs.
I know what you are saying, and don't think it doesn't cross everybody's mind - but we have an edict from high up that we MUST fly CI in the climb, cruise and descent unless absolutely necessary (ie ATC request) - so just to decide from a simple airmanship view to speed up is not an option now.
This is a new drive along with all the others about saving on fuel costs.
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SOP of flying Cost index speeds during the descent!
Very interesting SOP (Sh..y Ops Procedure)
Obviously the old times have gone where a skipper had an picture of his air-traffic beyond and behind and so sometimes worked hard to maintain a good, speedy approach flow in favour of all approaching aircrafts.
Quite a lot of the new servile, spineless "machine"-aircraft-movers-generation (I can't call them SKIPPER) seems to fly with VERY BIG blinkers
"Why shall I care myself about any traffic around me? I feel free like a
bird, and I am the only one flying here and now. Why shall I care if anybody has to join the hold, etc.etc.
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As said before this is now SOP, so I don't think you should direct your anger towards "spineless...skippers" but towards Spineless (or replace with many other censored insults) managers
CI is 19 btw
CI is 19 btw
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Yes, that's SOP.
But WHO is the pilot, WHO knows how to fly the aircraft, WHO knows the always different airspace traffic situation. YOU, or the"SOP"-MANAGER.
I hope nobody will fly the aircraft in the ground, just by to follow any 'sacrosant' S O P.
Start thinking first. Have always some healthy doubts about the mentioned SOP, which are done by still not error-free MANAGERS.
Don't forget that flying, flying in crowded airspace is someting vibrant, something which is dynamic and something which is and which can not be covered 100% by any SOP - just be flexible. That is what you are paid for. Flexible handling of the aircraft e.g. according traffic situation, is what all the skippers around you expect you to do
Be aware that one day YOU are not number one in the chain, but the guy ahead of you is flying e.g. green dot from TOD - according his SOP.
For just pushing button A during situation B as per SOP number C for me is just monkey business. And is again a defeat for good AIRMANSHIP and good CAPTAINCY etc.
But WHO is the pilot, WHO knows how to fly the aircraft, WHO knows the always different airspace traffic situation. YOU, or the
"SOP"-MANAGER.I hope nobody will fly the aircraft in the ground, just by to follow any 'sacrosant' S O P.
Start thinking first. Have always some healthy doubts about the mentioned SOP, which are done by still not error-free MANAGERS.
Don't forget that flying, flying in crowded airspace is someting vibrant, something which is dynamic and something which is and which can not be covered 100% by any SOP - just be flexible. That is what you are paid for. Flexible handling of the aircraft e.g. according traffic situation, is what all the skippers around you expect you to do
Be aware that one day YOU are not number one in the chain, but the guy ahead of you is flying e.g. green dot from TOD - according his SOP.For just pushing button A during situation B as per SOP number C for me is just monkey business. And is again a defeat for good AIRMANSHIP and good CAPTAINCY etc.
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I agree with you on situational awareness and flexibility. But as nobody else flies around at these silly speeds (as far as I'm aware) the only way of being sensible is to ignore this sop 99 out of 100 times.
why not follow this sop until atc/other operators/ezy pilots make official complaints and this ridiculous sop gets cancelled.
And I thought jets are faster than props...
why not follow this sop until atc/other operators/ezy pilots make official complaints and this ridiculous sop gets cancelled.
And I thought jets are faster than props...
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Heard an EZY Captain refuse an ATC speed restriction (300kts) the other day due "Company procedures". London politely challenged him a number of times before turning him 90 degrees to the airway to allow faster traffic behind through. Can't see how that saved EZY any money. Will also waste some administrators time at Orange HQ when the ATC report lands on their desk.
Get used to it folks. As the price of fuel climbs ever higher, and as the pressure to reduce carbon outputs rises, more and more carriers will be flying at a lower cost index. My company started doing it about a year ago and our fuel usage has dropped by 3 to 4%. If ATC asks me to go faster in descent, of course I comply, but otherwise, I realize the extra bit of time it adds to the flight is saving ALOT of money, even with the increase in airframe time that comes with it.
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airbus a321
Just curious, which other SOP's do you ignore??
I would appreciate a little more respect from fellow aviators as to thinking that we are mindless zombies demonstrating poor airmanship.
Don't think for a second that this policy is popular amongst the flight crew. But sometimes you need to "work to rule" to prove a point. If as a result of flying this speed I have to slow an aircraft up or send another to the hold, be in no doubt that I will fly a suitable speed and file an ASR.
Hope that the aircraft that got sent to the hold MORs the ocassion and Ezy managment have to explain the policy.
Just curious, which other SOP's do you ignore??
I would appreciate a little more respect from fellow aviators as to thinking that we are mindless zombies demonstrating poor airmanship.
Don't think for a second that this policy is popular amongst the flight crew. But sometimes you need to "work to rule" to prove a point. If as a result of flying this speed I have to slow an aircraft up or send another to the hold, be in no doubt that I will fly a suitable speed and file an ASR.
Hope that the aircraft that got sent to the hold MORs the ocassion and Ezy managment have to explain the policy.
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unablereqnavperf
Well, the problem is not with the machine, but with management... which by the way is also in command, not directly of the aircraft (anyway, who of you guys can pretend to be in command of an Airbus 
) but at least of my position within the airline.
One way to increase the speed given by the CI 19 and save even more fuel is very late descent, but beware
live 2 fly 2 live
easy pilots must realise that you are in command and not the machine!
) but at least of my position within the airline.One way to increase the speed given by the CI 19 and save even more fuel is very late descent, but beware
live 2 fly 2 live
Yes - I'm disappointed if crews are refusing to increase speed at the request of ATC. The SOP allows for tactical speed intervention in such cases and doing so would be good airmanship.
F4F - that's a negative. You will use more fuel as the engines stayed at a crz pwr setting for longer.
F4F - that's a negative. You will use more fuel as the engines stayed at a crz pwr setting for longer.
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A big part of airmanship is to "work in" with ATC, within safety, to facilitate the smooth and orderly flow of air traffic.
Some of the robots at ez don't seem to be doing this, judging by the first post, on this thread.
The old saying "you can teach a monkey to ride a bike but you will never teach it to read road signs" comes to mind.
Some of the robots at ez don't seem to be doing this, judging by the first post, on this thread.
The old saying "you can teach a monkey to ride a bike but you will never teach it to read road signs" comes to mind.
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eJ pilots and authority?
Yes, perhaps lot's of pilots in eJ are spineless, but what do you expect from people so gullible that they blindly accept all the cr@p (just look at all those NTC's regarding fuel... ) that is dumped on them by this beloved "Penny wise, Pound foolish" management?
Keep on bending over!
) that is dumped on them by this beloved "Penny wise, Pound foolish" management?Keep on bending over!
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The answer lies in what is an SOP ? It is a Standard operating procedure. I don't think it is a case of picking and choosing which of these procedures you will adopt and which you will ignore. Rather it is a case of recognising that there are situations which may well require a modification to the standard procedure, simply because the situation you find yourself in, is in itself not standard.
Compliance with an ATC request or instruction is usually born out of an obvious requirement. Every flight submits a flightplan with its cruising speeds an integral part of it. Variations are normally issued to ensure safety is not compromised or as part of that, the airspace block being efficiently utilised. Unless a request is simply being offered as a courtesy, or unless there is a safety issue ( turbulence penetration, likelyhood of an unstabilised approach etc.) such an instruction should not normally be compromised simply to comply with a companies standard operating procedure.
If an SOP is likely to cause difficulty or complications for ATC and other air traffic, it is at the very least incumbent on the Captain to ensure that ATC are given the information in a timely manner that ensures they can make adjustments to cause the minimum amount of disruption to both themselves and other traffic.
Every airline employs standard operating procedures for standard and some emergency situations. Every airline places a high commercial importance on minimizing its own operating costs. However every airline also selects its pilots and certainly its operating Captains to do what the FMC and the manuals can't. That is apply discretion, discrimination, judgment and common sense to any given situation.
Compliance with an ATC request or instruction is usually born out of an obvious requirement. Every flight submits a flightplan with its cruising speeds an integral part of it. Variations are normally issued to ensure safety is not compromised or as part of that, the airspace block being efficiently utilised. Unless a request is simply being offered as a courtesy, or unless there is a safety issue ( turbulence penetration, likelyhood of an unstabilised approach etc.) such an instruction should not normally be compromised simply to comply with a companies standard operating procedure.
If an SOP is likely to cause difficulty or complications for ATC and other air traffic, it is at the very least incumbent on the Captain to ensure that ATC are given the information in a timely manner that ensures they can make adjustments to cause the minimum amount of disruption to both themselves and other traffic.
Every airline employs standard operating procedures for standard and some emergency situations. Every airline places a high commercial importance on minimizing its own operating costs. However every airline also selects its pilots and certainly its operating Captains to do what the FMC and the manuals can't. That is apply discretion, discrimination, judgment and common sense to any given situation.