Bmi Airbus lands with park brake on (Report)
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Thanks for the info Desperate. Always seemed to me that the good blokes in bmi were the ones who were victimised the most. Bullies out to score brownie points in the eyes of their Lords and Masters always go for the easy targets and the good blokes are often regarded as such (and often are in fact).
As for your comments regarding BALPA, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly on that. A decent replacement for BALPA would go a long way towards solving a lot of the problems. BALPA are beyond salvage, unfortunately. Equally unfortunately, the bmi pilot workforce has got what it deserves in that respect.
I've got twelve more bmi ones! Took me all of a couple of minutes to recall them. I'm sure there are more.
Still, there's a lot of objections, justified or not, to all these facts I'm posting, so I'll save myself the time and effort and let my previous posts and future events do the talking for me.
As for your comments regarding BALPA, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly on that. A decent replacement for BALPA would go a long way towards solving a lot of the problems. BALPA are beyond salvage, unfortunately. Equally unfortunately, the bmi pilot workforce has got what it deserves in that respect.
.....you have mentioned a few incidents.....
Still, there's a lot of objections, justified or not, to all these facts I'm posting, so I'll save myself the time and effort and let my previous posts and future events do the talking for me.
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Gents,
I'm not an A320 pilot, but I have some idea of the layout. Even on the older planes without the software mod, isn't it true that the ECAM memo would show an amber PARK BRAKE? In this case, how can a contributing factor be that the crew did not check the right side of the ECAM, only the left? It's the same screen for heaven's sake!! I'd imagine that even if the msg was in green, they'd have picked up on it.
I really don't see what good the it will do to write in a manual "remember to check the lower right side of the ECAM". I don't see how a crew can not check the right side of the ECAM. I'm going to have to call BS on that one. To me, it's a bit like a piston pilot saying "I checked the oil pressure was a bit high, but I did not check the adjacent oil temperature gauge". Anyone care to comment or correct me? I'd be really interested to get another view on this.
I'm not an A320 pilot, but I have some idea of the layout. Even on the older planes without the software mod, isn't it true that the ECAM memo would show an amber PARK BRAKE? In this case, how can a contributing factor be that the crew did not check the right side of the ECAM, only the left? It's the same screen for heaven's sake!! I'd imagine that even if the msg was in green, they'd have picked up on it.
I really don't see what good the it will do to write in a manual "remember to check the lower right side of the ECAM". I don't see how a crew can not check the right side of the ECAM. I'm going to have to call BS on that one. To me, it's a bit like a piston pilot saying "I checked the oil pressure was a bit high, but I did not check the adjacent oil temperature gauge". Anyone care to comment or correct me? I'd be really interested to get another view on this.
Last edited by Check Airman; 24th Sep 2007 at 13:19.
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how can a contributing factor be that the crew did not check the right side of the ECAM, only the left? It's the same screen for heaven's sake!! I'd imagine that even if the msg was in green, they'd have picked up on it
It might not help that because of fuel saving priorities, bmi commonly taxi out with only one pack running. The second is switched on as the Before Take-off checklist below the line is called for thus displaying a [sts] on the EWD until then.
The predictive windshear is also not switched to auto until this part of the checklist so generating an Amber annunciation on the EWD.
Therefore when calling for the Before Take-off Checklist to the line, the last item - ECAM Take-off Memo......... Response ...... Normal
is correct with [sts] and an Amber msg! And this before every departure.
So seeing a bit of amber on the EWD before landing and it passing the awareness threshold of the pilots when lots else was happening.........?
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Check Airman: surely your cross check of the ECAM message and the brake lever position comes under the general heading of 'common sense' or to us aviators 'airmanship'? Or is it one of those things that we now have to be taught as CRM or as it's about to be known TEM (Threat Error Management)? 
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It also happened on 5 other occasions, so to simply say that the crew should know better misses the point that the design and location of the park brake is at fault. Does it happen in other Airbus aircraft? If it doesn't then the problem is equally the fault of the aircraft itself.
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I think I can better understand this incident given what Popster has introduced. It can't be good to have "abnormal" messages being displayed as part of normal ops. The stupid things some airlines do to save a few quid. I'm sure that incident has totally negated any savings. If Airbus designed the plane to go out with those systems off, they wouldn't have memo's up. I'd be very uncomfortable calling "checklist complete" with an amber message right in front of me. In this context, it's easy to understand why they'd try to land with an amber message. Wonder if they ever tried to take off with the parking brake set?
What's the purpose of turning off the predictive windshear before takeoff???
One final question is, if this is really how BMI does it, why didn't the report list it as a factor? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying that they never checked the right ECAM
What's the purpose of turning off the predictive windshear before takeoff???
One final question is, if this is really how BMI does it, why didn't the report list it as a factor? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than saying that they never checked the right ECAM
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permFO ,i dont wish to sound rude but you really are talking rubbish, and one can only assume you have never been on the 320/21 flightdeck let alone operated the controls, the parking brake bears no
resemblance either in design or fuction to the slat/flap lever. The parking brake is located in the same postion as on every other aircraft ive ever worked on boeing or airbus, ie on the centre pedastal left hand side, and is operated by lifting it out of its detent and turning it thro 90 degrees to set, the flap /slat lever is a conventional looking lever operating in the normal way up and down a slotted gate, and to say you could confuse the two is stretching things a tad far, whatever circumstances led to this unfortunate incident it wasnt shortcomings in aircraft control layout, the only real difference i would say in the 321/330 parking brake system is as it operated electricaly you do not have to depress the brake pedals before setting the brake as you would on a 757 for example
resemblance either in design or fuction to the slat/flap lever. The parking brake is located in the same postion as on every other aircraft ive ever worked on boeing or airbus, ie on the centre pedastal left hand side, and is operated by lifting it out of its detent and turning it thro 90 degrees to set, the flap /slat lever is a conventional looking lever operating in the normal way up and down a slotted gate, and to say you could confuse the two is stretching things a tad far, whatever circumstances led to this unfortunate incident it wasnt shortcomings in aircraft control layout, the only real difference i would say in the 321/330 parking brake system is as it operated electricaly you do not have to depress the brake pedals before setting the brake as you would on a 757 for example
Last edited by smudgethecat; 25th Sep 2007 at 19:47.
BUMPICH checks
BUMPFICH checks ! - works for me but I'm just an old timer ...ok, skip the mixture & pitch part for heavy turbines but it's a handy aid-memoir.
Progress is learning-going forward but not forgetting the obvious along the way.....exits stage left awaiting abuse from the crowd.....?
Progress is learning-going forward but not forgetting the obvious along the way.....exits stage left awaiting abuse from the crowd.....?
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Check Airman - Just to clarify that the PWS switch in the off position, with engines running, produces an amber caption. It is always turned on just before Take-off, but after the checklist item mentioned.
I have been taught that when acting as PNF, a simple method of ensuring that flaps move when you think that they did, is to keep your hand on the lever until observing the new setting has been reached, then remove hand and call it. It works -- so far!
I have been taught that when acting as PNF, a simple method of ensuring that flaps move when you think that they did, is to keep your hand on the lever until observing the new setting has been reached, then remove hand and call it. It works -- so far!
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Just to clarify, I don't claim to be perfect, I do agree that mistakes will happen and I definitely applaud sensible adjustments to procedures to prevent a repetition of mistakes.
Now thats an idea.....do you want me to explore bmi's reaction to previous incidents, then? Very interesting, some of those are!
One of my points (which, I repeat, I originally said "not to mention") was that any airline which is infested with an arguably abnormal number of mistakes and incidents deserves to have some very fundamental questions asked of it.
Seems as if the majority here aren't willing to consider asking those questions in this case, or, more interestingly, would prefer them ignored.
I certainly won't be expecting the CAA to get excited any century soon! Pigs might crash first.
flapsfullretard, you have me worried. I haven't received a penny in salary as "armchair MD"! But then, that's typical. It's also the first area demanding attention if you think about it....if you pay peanuts you end up employing nothing but monkeys. The guys with brains soon move on to better salaries and better terms and conditions.
So I herewith resign as armchair MD of bmi, before they make a monkey out of me!
I enjoyed that! Now I've resigned twice from bmi. Does any man deserve such pleasure in one lifetime?
Now thats an idea.....do you want me to explore bmi's reaction to previous incidents, then? Very interesting, some of those are!
One of my points (which, I repeat, I originally said "not to mention") was that any airline which is infested with an arguably abnormal number of mistakes and incidents deserves to have some very fundamental questions asked of it.
Seems as if the majority here aren't willing to consider asking those questions in this case, or, more interestingly, would prefer them ignored.
I certainly won't be expecting the CAA to get excited any century soon! Pigs might crash first.
flapsfullretard, you have me worried. I haven't received a penny in salary as "armchair MD"! But then, that's typical. It's also the first area demanding attention if you think about it....if you pay peanuts you end up employing nothing but monkeys. The guys with brains soon move on to better salaries and better terms and conditions.
So I herewith resign as armchair MD of bmi, before they make a monkey out of me!
I enjoyed that! Now I've resigned twice from bmi. Does any man deserve such pleasure in one lifetime?
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airline which is infested with an arguably abnormal number of mistakes and incidents deserves to have some very fundamental questions asked of it.
Now I've resigned twice from bmi
I was talking with my colleagues about this incident and one of them mention that one day, he found the parking brake on in flight where neither pilot could remember setting it, or for that matter wnting it on in flight. They summised that it was as a result of the cabin crew's habit of putting food trays on the centre pedestal. It got set when a tray was removed.
I don't like the practice and I tell our crew not to do it. And in fact in my previous airline it was a big no no after a 747 had full aileron trim applied in flight for the very same reason. (This only becomes apparent when you click the autopilot out. At 500' in this case, which made for a very interesting landing!)
My company's SOPs has us confirming the autobrake setting when the PM confirms the gear is down. I add my own check of the triple indicator which is a habit which stems from the check list of my first training type. This would immediately warn you that the park brake was set.
I don't like the practice and I tell our crew not to do it. And in fact in my previous airline it was a big no no after a 747 had full aileron trim applied in flight for the very same reason. (This only becomes apparent when you click the autopilot out. At 500' in this case, which made for a very interesting landing!)
My company's SOPs has us confirming the autobrake setting when the PM confirms the gear is down. I add my own check of the triple indicator which is a habit which stems from the check list of my first training type. This would immediately warn you that the park brake was set.
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Applied brakes in stead of flaps?
It has been a while since I flew grand aeroplanes, but in my day we had a little gauge by which we could tell whether landing flap had been selected.
Though it was a boring little thing with neither fancy flashing lights nor glowing cursor, not even a fancy name, it was, non the less, fully a multi functional device.
Not only would it tell us that we had acheived our ambition with regard to the current flap lever position, it would tell us all sorts of other flap positions, maybe even that the flaps were, or more significantly, were not in transit immediately following a selection.
We were required to look at it in order to read it, though I have to admit, legally speaking, looking was not written down as a check list item.
Perhaps things had not developed to quite such a complicated level in my time.
Selected brakes instead of flaps? That is not a crime. We all make/made such mistakes.
Didn't check that operating the switch had acheived the expected result?
Now thats a crime, even at LBA , even with a wet runway, even with 30kt fog from 90 degrees.
Though it was a boring little thing with neither fancy flashing lights nor glowing cursor, not even a fancy name, it was, non the less, fully a multi functional device.
Not only would it tell us that we had acheived our ambition with regard to the current flap lever position, it would tell us all sorts of other flap positions, maybe even that the flaps were, or more significantly, were not in transit immediately following a selection.
We were required to look at it in order to read it, though I have to admit, legally speaking, looking was not written down as a check list item.
Perhaps things had not developed to quite such a complicated level in my time.
Selected brakes instead of flaps? That is not a crime. We all make/made such mistakes.
Didn't check that operating the switch had acheived the expected result?
Now thats a crime, even at LBA , even with a wet runway, even with 30kt fog from 90 degrees.
Last edited by Steve R; 29th Sep 2007 at 11:45.
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permFO ,i dont wish to sound rude but you really are talking rubbish, and one can only assume you have never been on the 320/21 flightdeck let alone operated the controls, the parking brake bears no
resemblance either in design or fuction to the slat/flap lever. The parking brake is located in the same postion as on every other aircraft ive ever worked on boeing or airbus, ie on the centre pedastal left hand side, and is operated by lifting it out of its detent and turning it thro 90 degrees to set, the flap /slat lever is a conventional looking lever operating in the normal way up and down a slotted gate, and to say you could confuse the two is stretching things a tad far, whatever circumstances led to this unfortunate incident it wasnt shortcomings in aircraft control layout, the only real difference i would say in the 321/330 parking brake system is as it operated electricaly you do not have to depress the brake pedals before setting the brake as you would on a 757 for example
resemblance either in design or fuction to the slat/flap lever. The parking brake is located in the same postion as on every other aircraft ive ever worked on boeing or airbus, ie on the centre pedastal left hand side, and is operated by lifting it out of its detent and turning it thro 90 degrees to set, the flap /slat lever is a conventional looking lever operating in the normal way up and down a slotted gate, and to say you could confuse the two is stretching things a tad far, whatever circumstances led to this unfortunate incident it wasnt shortcomings in aircraft control layout, the only real difference i would say in the 321/330 parking brake system is as it operated electricaly you do not have to depress the brake pedals before setting the brake as you would on a 757 for example
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Parking Brake Sim Check
(All on the sim so please don't freak)
WE have personaly tried setting the PrkBrk inflight and then continuing the approach. and all the way down till 200AGL We didn't recieve any Ecam Warning. And Finally we released the PB and continued landing without any residual pressure. only to prove tht it is a very likely phenomena tht a CApt might Reply bk to the Challange of " Ecam Memo" as "Landing No Blue" but totally ignore the PrkBrk Memo on the Memo Panel on the E/WD.
As a cross check a personal option i employ is at the 400 AGL
I check The wind to confirm any Tail or x wind. And the memo on the E/WD for the following
L dg Inhibit
I gnition
L dg lights
A auto brake
I call it the LILA Check. anythin out of the ordinary and it strikes u immediately.
It is a very sad thing for somethin like this to happen to a crew... and it is even sadder tht our fellow crew could actually say...U gotta be stupid to set the PB inflight..its not stupid cuz u didn't do it intentionally and no excuses but could happen...
WE have personaly tried setting the PrkBrk inflight and then continuing the approach. and all the way down till 200AGL We didn't recieve any Ecam Warning. And Finally we released the PB and continued landing without any residual pressure. only to prove tht it is a very likely phenomena tht a CApt might Reply bk to the Challange of " Ecam Memo" as "Landing No Blue" but totally ignore the PrkBrk Memo on the Memo Panel on the E/WD.
As a cross check a personal option i employ is at the 400 AGL
I check The wind to confirm any Tail or x wind. And the memo on the E/WD for the following
L dg Inhibit
I gnition
L dg lights
A auto brake
I call it the LILA Check. anythin out of the ordinary and it strikes u immediately.
It is a very sad thing for somethin like this to happen to a crew... and it is even sadder tht our fellow crew could actually say...U gotta be stupid to set the PB inflight..its not stupid cuz u didn't do it intentionally and no excuses but could happen...
