Any Objections?
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Jmc have had American pilots flying for them during the summer now for a couple of years. Caledonian, Airworld and Colours were all at the same game a number of years ago..... If it were illegal I think someone would of stopped it by now... dont you. 
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>
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Hey Monkee ...you should rather stay in the trees .. just to get those facts right:
"...I understand that last year Excel had American pilots both Captains and F/Os working for them"
As I've stated- Been there- done that & most likely_: "Uuuuups - I did it again!" - flying. .as AAI-Skipper for EXCEL during the next summer ex LGW - and as it looks right now, that's going to be four 767s this year - but that's beside the point!
I wanted to state the fact, that the colleagues, I'd been up at the flightdeck for some 6 month, are definitively mostly (about 70%!) Europeans!! i.e.: lots of Italians (Ex-AIR-Europe), some French (ex Air-Liberte), German (ex Britannia GmbH), Austrian (ex LAUDA), Belgique (ex City-bird) and "some more exotic /non-european" jockeys: . .like "Ex-Air-Mauritius" or "Ex-Vietnam-Airlines" and some Aussies from "Ex-Ansett" - just another few (!) Canadian ("Ex-Korean") folks on the 767 -
But they have all two things in common:
First: Great (wiede-body) mostly B 767-experience & professional attitude and good standards (We'd been trained by Britannia-Checkers in LGW/ GECAT) and a good laugh most of the time/ good moral!
and secondly: most of 'em come from some "Ex-Companies" -which couldn't employ them anymore, 'cause their business plan didn't work out - on the long run!. . Now they (& Me) are happy to have a suitable job again, where their professionality & loyality (!) is appreciated, and their pay-check is on the exact day on the bank!
I didn't state, that's that kind of job, I've ever dreamt of - but for the time being, its the best I can get (over 40 years) ..
And I definitively will rather do another couple of years some contract work &thus meaning, sittig @ home in the winter, than joining a "Will Fly for Food"-Airline-outfit, like that Ryan-Air thing!
Never with me -thats the REAL slavery in my eyes!
And to Xenia: Never mind some bitter colleagues here .... .Big hug to You- Hope to See You soon!
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyberbird ]</p>
"...I understand that last year Excel had American pilots both Captains and F/Os working for them"
As I've stated- Been there- done that & most likely_: "Uuuuups - I did it again!" - flying. .as AAI-Skipper for EXCEL during the next summer ex LGW - and as it looks right now, that's going to be four 767s this year - but that's beside the point!
I wanted to state the fact, that the colleagues, I'd been up at the flightdeck for some 6 month, are definitively mostly (about 70%!) Europeans!! i.e.: lots of Italians (Ex-AIR-Europe), some French (ex Air-Liberte), German (ex Britannia GmbH), Austrian (ex LAUDA), Belgique (ex City-bird) and "some more exotic /non-european" jockeys: . .like "Ex-Air-Mauritius" or "Ex-Vietnam-Airlines" and some Aussies from "Ex-Ansett" - just another few (!) Canadian ("Ex-Korean") folks on the 767 -
But they have all two things in common:
First: Great (wiede-body) mostly B 767-experience & professional attitude and good standards (We'd been trained by Britannia-Checkers in LGW/ GECAT) and a good laugh most of the time/ good moral!
and secondly: most of 'em come from some "Ex-Companies" -which couldn't employ them anymore, 'cause their business plan didn't work out - on the long run!. . Now they (& Me) are happy to have a suitable job again, where their professionality & loyality (!) is appreciated, and their pay-check is on the exact day on the bank!
I didn't state, that's that kind of job, I've ever dreamt of - but for the time being, its the best I can get (over 40 years) ..
And I definitively will rather do another couple of years some contract work &thus meaning, sittig @ home in the winter, than joining a "Will Fly for Food"-Airline-outfit, like that Ryan-Air thing!
Never with me -thats the REAL slavery in my eyes!
And to Xenia: Never mind some bitter colleagues here .... .Big hug to You- Hope to See You soon!
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyberbird ]</p>
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Monkee
I don't know who you are or what your beef is with Excel, but I am beginning to find your posts about the airline to be very irritating. You obviously have one hellavu big chip on your shoulder. Did they reject you or even fire you? Whichever, I don't really care. What I would say is that this fine forum is NOT the place for small-minded, twisted types to air their personal grievances against any airline. Grow up or shut up.
As others have said here before, lots of happy campers at that airline and one of the very few that hasn't made redundancies or cut pay for the troops in these troubled times. Maybe that's what irks you??
And leave Xenia alone, she's a real sweetie.
I don't know who you are or what your beef is with Excel, but I am beginning to find your posts about the airline to be very irritating. You obviously have one hellavu big chip on your shoulder. Did they reject you or even fire you? Whichever, I don't really care. What I would say is that this fine forum is NOT the place for small-minded, twisted types to air their personal grievances against any airline. Grow up or shut up.
As others have said here before, lots of happy campers at that airline and one of the very few that hasn't made redundancies or cut pay for the troops in these troubled times. Maybe that's what irks you??
And leave Xenia alone, she's a real sweetie.
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Can't you see it yet guys. I strongly suspect Monkee is biting the hand that's feeding him his nuts...so to speak! Maybe it's a seat on the 767 he's after though I can't see how briefing against his employer (ie Excel)will help. Standby for protestations to the contrary!!!!!
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This isn't a gripe just against excel, and definitely not against those employed there. It IS a post against the UK government practice of opening the doors to the UK domestic market, while most others in the Western world -Especially that of the USA! are very firmly closed to UK airlines. This practice will certainly mean fewer jobs for UK pilots. To those from the USA who have posted here to ask what the problem is, would you honestly tolerate it on your home turf??
As to the argument "it must be legal or something would have been done..", the same regulations govern wet leasing in all European Union (not EEA)countries. This comes under EU regulation 2407/92. The UK government takes a far more liberal interpretation of this rule than any other member state.
As to the argument "it must be legal or something would have been done..", the same regulations govern wet leasing in all European Union (not EEA)countries. This comes under EU regulation 2407/92. The UK government takes a far more liberal interpretation of this rule than any other member state.
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Shotone
The post may have started off as such, but then you get the likes of monkee that hijack it to vent his spleen against the airline in this and other posts. He clearly has a vendetta and as such I would like to see him take his fight elsewhere.
Whilst we are on the subject, however, why restrict your argument to the Western world? Have you ever stopped to think how many Brit expats are flying in foreign countries around the world? Then consider the number of Europeans too flying overseas. If all these pilots were 'repatriated' by overseas nations then the plight of UK pilots seeking jobs in the UK would be very dire indeed!
<edited for spelling>
[ 27 January 2002: Message edited by: Old King Coal ]</p>
The post may have started off as such, but then you get the likes of monkee that hijack it to vent his spleen against the airline in this and other posts. He clearly has a vendetta and as such I would like to see him take his fight elsewhere.
Whilst we are on the subject, however, why restrict your argument to the Western world? Have you ever stopped to think how many Brit expats are flying in foreign countries around the world? Then consider the number of Europeans too flying overseas. If all these pilots were 'repatriated' by overseas nations then the plight of UK pilots seeking jobs in the UK would be very dire indeed!
<edited for spelling>
[ 27 January 2002: Message edited by: Old King Coal ]</p>
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Some of the previous contributors and monkee seem to know each other. If they are set on a personal spat then I too would be happy if they had it elsewhere.
But don't lets throw red herrings. Yes many pilots from the UK -and the USA, Australia, Sweden, Sth Africa and lots of other countries are employed as expats. Sometimes this is because of a lack of resources for training local pilots. Sometimes -like in Singapore -it is because a well educated young Singaporean can have a far more promising career in business than he would in aviation. Either way, it is completely irrelevant to this argument.
But don't lets throw red herrings. Yes many pilots from the UK -and the USA, Australia, Sweden, Sth Africa and lots of other countries are employed as expats. Sometimes this is because of a lack of resources for training local pilots. Sometimes -like in Singapore -it is because a well educated young Singaporean can have a far more promising career in business than he would in aviation. Either way, it is completely irrelevant to this argument.
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Forgive me, but what is irrelevant here in this debate?
The fact that there are many hundreds of Brits flying overseas to the number of non Brits that are flying in the uK?
...or was it, the fact that a wet lease application went in, one that was predominantly flown by EU pilots?
What are we objecting to here?
Is it the piece of metal that doesn't have a G- register on it, or is it that it is not flown by Brits?
Face facts...The EU is one body now, like it or not. The fact that a hairy Swede might be flying in the left hand seat of such non-Brit registered aircraft is acceptible under EU and UK law, like it or not.
Back to Excel...their very success, as demonstrated by no redundancies and no pay cuts, would proove they are doing something right...and in doing so, protecting the jobs of the numerous UK pilots that work for them. Or would you rather they sink into their own little self-protectionist world, denying themselves the opportunity to prosper and face the same stark realities that lots of airlines are facing at the moment? Maybe, when EVERY single UK pilot is out of work, then we can all feel content, cos no-one is doing any better than their next door neighbour? Hardly a red herring. Wake up, smell the coffee.
The fact that there are many hundreds of Brits flying overseas to the number of non Brits that are flying in the uK?
...or was it, the fact that a wet lease application went in, one that was predominantly flown by EU pilots?
What are we objecting to here?
Is it the piece of metal that doesn't have a G- register on it, or is it that it is not flown by Brits?
Face facts...The EU is one body now, like it or not. The fact that a hairy Swede might be flying in the left hand seat of such non-Brit registered aircraft is acceptible under EU and UK law, like it or not.
Back to Excel...their very success, as demonstrated by no redundancies and no pay cuts, would proove they are doing something right...and in doing so, protecting the jobs of the numerous UK pilots that work for them. Or would you rather they sink into their own little self-protectionist world, denying themselves the opportunity to prosper and face the same stark realities that lots of airlines are facing at the moment? Maybe, when EVERY single UK pilot is out of work, then we can all feel content, cos no-one is doing any better than their next door neighbour? Hardly a red herring. Wake up, smell the coffee.
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Firstly, let me say I have every sympathy with those boys and girls, both flight deck and cabin crew who find themselves out of work. In fact I have a few personal friends who have recently been made redundant from JMC.. .However, having read this thread, I do think it time for some people on this forum to face up to the harsh facts of business economics.. .It seems the thrust of the complaints is that an airline, in this case Excel Airways, has taken foreign registered capacity for it's Summer program.. .Let's look at this from a cold business case as I suspect the management of Excel have to do.. .First, can they secure the capacity they need from the UK market? . .Well, it may be true that there is excess capacity on the UK wide-body market for some of the season, but definately not continuously for the whole season.. .Given this fact, what are the options; 1)Lease in wide-body aircraft and employ extra crews.. .2) Wet-lease the capacity they require for the period they need.. .Option 1 means that you not only have absorb the lease costs but also the costs for crew salaries, insurance, maintenance etc etc. When the leaner times of the winter arrives those costs do not go away, so the overheads vs. revenue begins to increase, putting adverse financial pressure on the airline. This could well force the airline out of business, as has already happened (BWA et al,) meaning not only the jobs of the extra crews taken on, but all the other BRITISH crews that Excel do employ, plus everyone else in the company as well.. .What good does that do anyone?. .Option 2 allows them to bring in the capacity they need for period of time they need it. . .As has been pointed out on this thread already, Air Atlanta do employ quite a significant number of Brits on this contract, so there is absolutely no reason why some of the bleaters on this board cannot apply for a job with AAI.. .Added to which as part of the European Aviation package, an Icelandic company is perfectly entitled to employ any European crew member, regardless of where the aircraft operates.. .Whilst I understand the emotional response people have in these difficult times, trying to force another UK carrier down the road to ruin by forcing to take on aircraft and crews which cannot be sustained helps no one!
Before you all start hurling abuse at me for what I have said, take a long hard think about this from an unemotional point of view, and tell me honestly that if you were a decision maker at an airline faced with this type of decision, that you would not take the same path.
Before you all start hurling abuse at me for what I have said, take a long hard think about this from an unemotional point of view, and tell me honestly that if you were a decision maker at an airline faced with this type of decision, that you would not take the same path.
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What Excel have done to have upset people in such a relatively short time is beyond me but well done to them , seems to be more a case of jealousy than any real grievance, especially baboon or monkee whatever your name is. The airline and airports of the UK have been employing seasonal staff for as long as i can remember, but i don't believe Servisair, British Airways or anyone else would get this amount of grief simply for finding a way to make money and keep a certain amount of staff employed all year round but not all. . .If it upsets people so much, get out there, start an airline and make a difference, we'll watch with interest to see how long you last.
I'm sure the people at Excel would love to know how to do it....... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
I'm sure the people at Excel would love to know how to do it....... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
