Air Moorea Twin Otter crash - Tahiti
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Well then, P.P., I suppose we can put your good self in the...'just grab a handful of any 'ole lever' department, without actually looking at what you might be doing.
Folks were flying these aeroplanes I would expect long before you were out of the pram, and they didn't have any problem.
Perhaps you should visit your training department and have 'em sharpen your skills...
Folks were flying these aeroplanes I would expect long before you were out of the pram, and they didn't have any problem.
Perhaps you should visit your training department and have 'em sharpen your skills...
In my experience, FWIW, with only about 1000 hrs on type, both Multi crew and SP, I don't think I was ever worried about inadvertent selection. Mr De Havilland put very different tactile knobs on the ends of the levers. Even with flying gloves on, on night ops, it was always obvious what levers my hand was selecting. As to the comment about selecting flaps up for assymmetric ops, if that is actually the case AND that is a contributing factor, I wouldn't like to be in company management now!
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There are 3 sets of lever on the Twin Otter's quadrant, throttle prop and fuel. Which ones do you refer to as HP cocks? The red fuel ones had a small plastic covering on them on F-OIQI.
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When the Twin Otter first came out up to about 1971 I logged 4000 hrs with a company that had a fleet of'em, and never heard of a case where someone grabbed the wrong lever. Seems to me it says something about the pilot and/or training.
Life's too short for ironing
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I'm amazed at the "because I've never done it, or heard of it being done, anyone who owns up on pprune they did it must be an incompetent" attitude. To err is human, thats why we are all capable of landing gear up, or of pulling the mixture levers back instead of the props, or of trying to get out of our seat with our headset still on...... Admittedly there are times, but definitely not always because we are idiot pilots, or badly trained; everyone makes mistakes. Fatigue, distractions, illness, any number of things can cause that momentary lack of attention to detail.
Most of the time we get away with the mistakes, and learn from them, as Mr Pilcher did. To say that this says "something about the pilot and/or training" asks for people not to own up to their mistakes so that others can learn from them. I doubt, Mr Lenahan, you have gone through life, and your long flying career with no mistakes made. I hope if you ever own up to any of them, no one suggests to you that it says something about you and/or your training.......
Most of the time we get away with the mistakes, and learn from them, as Mr Pilcher did. To say that this says "something about the pilot and/or training" asks for people not to own up to their mistakes so that others can learn from them. I doubt, Mr Lenahan, you have gone through life, and your long flying career with no mistakes made. I hope if you ever own up to any of them, no one suggests to you that it says something about you and/or your training.......
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i agree withh 411a et all. I am also a great pilot and never make mistakes like that. in fact i don't know why they bother having switches and levers different shapes. just put them all in one big bank of switches and levers all shaped the same and because we read the label before we operate the switch we will never make a mistake. and as i am never under pressure and never have a bad day it means that i always read the label before i operate any lever or switch on every occasion even thought the switch has been in the same place for 20 years. it's so obvious, why have boeing and airbus wasted all this money designing aircraft the way they do. they should have just spoken to us first!
ps 411a just thought i'd mention the missing aposthrophe from your post. obviously you were just winding mr. PP with that intentional little error. very witty ol' chap.
ps 411a just thought i'd mention the missing aposthrophe from your post. obviously you were just winding mr. PP with that intentional little error. very witty ol' chap.
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Twin Otter is a very forgiving machine. Having logged over 4000 hours in T/O flying around the most difficult areas around the himalayas (RWY elevation up to 11,000 ft, STOL most RWY length 1400-1800 ft, and in all shapes 
) I have tremendeous respect for this aircraft. I must conclude that its takes alot to crash this aircraft. When I say it takes alot, I mean someone has to just make serious mistakes to crash this aircraft.
We have had many T/O crashes (more than 10) in our area, almost one T/O each year and sadly , all of them were Pilot error and not a single one due to technical failure. Having said that I dont intent to negate the possibility of technical failure however, even with technical failure this aircraft does provide alot of margin for the safe return.
Pulling fuel levers instead of Prop levers is a serious mistake very few could make.
) I have tremendeous respect for this aircraft. I must conclude that its takes alot to crash this aircraft. When I say it takes alot, I mean someone has to just make serious mistakes to crash this aircraft.We have had many T/O crashes (more than 10) in our area, almost one T/O each year and sadly , all of them were Pilot error and not a single one due to technical failure. Having said that I dont intent to negate the possibility of technical failure however, even with technical failure this aircraft does provide alot of margin for the safe return.
Pulling fuel levers instead of Prop levers is a serious mistake very few could make.
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Interesting..
I am always sadened to read of accidents with the Twin Otter... there is unfortunately always one or two a year in the accident section of the Flight Intl. magazine. I have flown the DHC6 on floats, wheels, skis, and ski/wheel combos... for thousands of hours in worldwide operations and I have never once heard of people mistakenly selecting the fuel levers for the Prop levers... the fuel levers (are round little red colored at the knob) and the prop levers (are a rectangular shape with little crests), how somebody could mistakenly screw this up is beyond me... I trained lots of guys to fly this aircraft, and one word of caution I always gave was to visually look at which lever you place your hand during emergency training and regular clean up after t/o... I have seen all sorts of things during training.... To crash this aircraft... you really have to have bad luck, or really screw something up... I was doing some training once during confined beach landingings in Africa years ago with a new bloke... the turn from downwind to final was practically a circle due to the trees and rocky hills in the regular straight-in approach (hence no straight in approach), when I selected flaps to full the guy freaked- he had never seen a full flap approach before after having several thousand hours of experience in the UK .... well he got to see his first with me this day.... when I asked him why he had never seen one before: he replied that due to company limitations it was forbiden... when I eventually placed him in the left seat: he tried several times to switch the autofx system to "ON" during final approach... I had also never heard of this before... normally only during t/o... there seems to be such a broad spectrum of procedures (good and bad) that would lead me to think that is why every once in awhile something happens... unfortunately..
I love flying the twin otter, and before I retire I woudl like to go back to flying her!! - soon!
6to8
I love flying the twin otter, and before I retire I woudl like to go back to flying her!! - soon!
6to8
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6to8 Has made some very good points, I too have about 4000 on type and find it very hard to believe that someone could make this kind of mistake. I have flown with Serge C, who used to be Air Moorea’s TRE/TRI and there is no why he ever trained anyone to touch and not look!
With regard different procedures, I have flown with 5 different companies on the otter, some used different procedures, ie no AutoFx on Floats, etc however the most amazing was the Full Flap scenario that 6to8 mentions.
How can someone be checked out as competent and never had a full flap landing? The reply I got is its not company procedure……. The same was flapless landings (ok ok I know what the manual says) but if you don’t have access to the sim where do you get it.
The TO is a bush plane and no matter what rules you operate under it is a real hands on plane, no pussy auto this and auto that, hell most don’t even have autopilots!
I find it really difficult to believe this was a pilot error due “training issues” accident, I also find it difficult to comprehend crashing straight ahead a mile from the field with as witness’ reported both engines operating.
Also I find it difficult to understand why it was single pilot where even JAR Ops state that given the number of seats it should have been two crew (or do F-Oxxx have differing rules? Would not surprise me!)
There will be a lot more to this accident than meets the eye so lets stop the speculation and await the report. The weather was good, the operator has a good track record, the leg was 7 mins, there are no traffic issues, nor terrain on departure track…..
Something does not add up.
With regard different procedures, I have flown with 5 different companies on the otter, some used different procedures, ie no AutoFx on Floats, etc however the most amazing was the Full Flap scenario that 6to8 mentions.
How can someone be checked out as competent and never had a full flap landing? The reply I got is its not company procedure……. The same was flapless landings (ok ok I know what the manual says) but if you don’t have access to the sim where do you get it.
The TO is a bush plane and no matter what rules you operate under it is a real hands on plane, no pussy auto this and auto that, hell most don’t even have autopilots!
I find it really difficult to believe this was a pilot error due “training issues” accident, I also find it difficult to comprehend crashing straight ahead a mile from the field with as witness’ reported both engines operating.
Also I find it difficult to understand why it was single pilot where even JAR Ops state that given the number of seats it should have been two crew (or do F-Oxxx have differing rules? Would not surprise me!)
There will be a lot more to this accident than meets the eye so lets stop the speculation and await the report. The weather was good, the operator has a good track record, the leg was 7 mins, there are no traffic issues, nor terrain on departure track…..
Something does not add up.
I'm amazed at the "because I've never done it, or heard of it being done, anyone who owns up on pprune they did it must be an incompetent" attitude. To err is human, thats why we are all capable of landing gear up, or of pulling the mixture levers back instead of the props, or of trying to get out of our seat with our headset still on...... Admittedly there are times, but definitely not always because we are idiot pilots, or badly trained; everyone makes mistakes. Fatigue, distractions, illness, any number of things can cause that momentary lack of attention to detail.
Bring back the Dak!
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Just over 1,000hrs on the DHC-6, 2 years @ 10-12 sectors a day (Channel Isles), and the rest on skis, way down south. Must agree with many of the posts here that pitch and fuel levers are visually and tactiley totally different, and I seem to remember that any movement imparted to those controls was always accompanied at the very least by a quick glance to see where my hand was being put. Can't remember if we had a plastic guard fitted or not, (early to mid 80's), but IMO very difficult to pull the wrong levers.
I too came to realise just how strong the a/c was and what seemingly ridiculous things you can ask it to do when flying off remote ski-ways, and both it and the DC-3 are the two aircraft I would dearly love to fly again before I retire for good.
I too came to realise just how strong the a/c was and what seemingly ridiculous things you can ask it to do when flying off remote ski-ways, and both it and the DC-3 are the two aircraft I would dearly love to fly again before I retire for good.
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In addition to the guards, I would suggest the installation of a 'braille' type sensory warning beside the HP levers, on the binacle, telling the pilot's fingers he/she is in 'shut-down' territory.
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I can imagine those who won't like this, but sometimes you just have to fly the airplane. Haven't seen one that idiot-proof yet.
This has no bearing at all on above said accident.
This has no bearing at all on above said accident.
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Gday All,
I had a French FO yesterday who previously worked there and has spoken directly with some ex colleagues there.
Flight was usually conducted VFR……… explains single pilot
No medical fault with Captain who was in his early 50s
Seems to some confusion as to whether engines were operating upon impact.
Wreckage is located at a depth of 700m+
Unconfirmed reports of CVR being found…….. (FO could not remember if it was fitted – I have only ever flown one that had it)
Still more questions than answers,
Evansb, the tactile difference between the prop leavers and the fuel leavers are so great that your Braille comment is ridiculous.
The thing is a bush plane and not “idiot proofed” and should be flows as one. Any attempt to change it simply over complicates things.
I had a French FO yesterday who previously worked there and has spoken directly with some ex colleagues there.
Flight was usually conducted VFR……… explains single pilot
No medical fault with Captain who was in his early 50s
Seems to some confusion as to whether engines were operating upon impact.
Wreckage is located at a depth of 700m+
Unconfirmed reports of CVR being found…….. (FO could not remember if it was fitted – I have only ever flown one that had it)
Still more questions than answers,
Evansb, the tactile difference between the prop leavers and the fuel leavers are so great that your Braille comment is ridiculous.
The thing is a bush plane and not “idiot proofed” and should be flows as one. Any attempt to change it simply over complicates things.
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"Pulling fuel levers instead of Prop levers is a serious mistake very few could make."
Has there been any official information that this may have caused or contributed to the crash, or is this conjecture?
Has there been any official information that this may have caused or contributed to the crash, or is this conjecture?
"Wreckage is still in 700mts of water. Until they recover it we will have to wait to see if the fuel levers were on or off at impact."
That's deep - i.e. expensive.
Is there a recovery operation planned?
That's deep - i.e. expensive.
Is there a recovery operation planned?
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I am currently flying the Twin Otter.
These Twin Otters, like every one I have ever flown (all 300-series) have the little plastic guards on the fuel levers, to prevent snagging or grabbing them without meaning to shut off the fuel.
Too, as pointed out here, the levers are a very different shape to the adjacent throttles and prop levers.
I think it would be extremely unlikely that a pilot would cut the fuel when intending to reduce propeller RPM. It might happen, of course, but between having to get way over to the right, past the rather large prop levers, and then ignore the very different feel of the knobs... you would have to be having a very bad day indeed to make this particular mistake.
Of course if you made the mistake you would immediately put the levers back to the "ON" position, but that wouldn't solve the problem unless you also put the ignition on!
These Twin Otters, like every one I have ever flown (all 300-series) have the little plastic guards on the fuel levers, to prevent snagging or grabbing them without meaning to shut off the fuel.
Too, as pointed out here, the levers are a very different shape to the adjacent throttles and prop levers.
I think it would be extremely unlikely that a pilot would cut the fuel when intending to reduce propeller RPM. It might happen, of course, but between having to get way over to the right, past the rather large prop levers, and then ignore the very different feel of the knobs... you would have to be having a very bad day indeed to make this particular mistake.
Of course if you made the mistake you would immediately put the levers back to the "ON" position, but that wouldn't solve the problem unless you also put the ignition on!