Comair Lexington Crash - NTSB Hearing
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411A
yes, if you encounter windshear on the runway and are running out of runway you should rotate 1000' prior to the end of the runway, EVEN if you are below V1/VR.
You should also set FIREWALL POWER/THRUST.
If you doubt this, please do some research.
(all of this assumes that you are running out of runway...a situation that the comair pilots were facing)
Airliners will fly below V1/VR, just with a loss of certain protections and performance, but in this case the tradeoff would have been justified.
411A: what would you do if faced with stagnating airspeed, & running out of runway? (on runway windshear scenario)
yes, if you encounter windshear on the runway and are running out of runway you should rotate 1000' prior to the end of the runway, EVEN if you are below V1/VR.
You should also set FIREWALL POWER/THRUST.
If you doubt this, please do some research.
(all of this assumes that you are running out of runway...a situation that the comair pilots were facing)
Airliners will fly below V1/VR, just with a loss of certain protections and performance, but in this case the tradeoff would have been justified.
411A: what would you do if faced with stagnating airspeed, & running out of runway? (on runway windshear scenario)
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@bomarc
Agree, but a short while later they refer to "normal thrust" when discussing the takeoff data. So it's not clear to me whether they ended up flexing or not. What seems like it might be the N1 setting is shown as "** point two" in the CVR I think, so without crocc-checking against the N1 setting charts I can't tell if that's a plausible flex or normal N1.
in the cvr transcript you can hear/read that the pilots selected a FLEX takeoff (reduced power that is)
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At least one US carrier has referred to FLEX as "Normal" or "Standard" in their standardization training, as opposed to "Max" thrust which is the exception. It's a matter of semantics.
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mad scientist:
in this case normal=flex.
max takeoff would mean max rated takeoff thrust and would not cause damage to the engine if properly monitored.
FIREWALL thrust/power means everything the engine can give with the throttle to the mechanical stops...engine damage likely after 8 minutes or so (depends on engine)
firewall power is used in desperate situations...comair was in a desperate situation don't you think?
in this case normal=flex.
max takeoff would mean max rated takeoff thrust and would not cause damage to the engine if properly monitored.
FIREWALL thrust/power means everything the engine can give with the throttle to the mechanical stops...engine damage likely after 8 minutes or so (depends on engine)
firewall power is used in desperate situations...comair was in a desperate situation don't you think?
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Don't at all disagree re the idea of firewalling the engines (in fact I've pointed out this as an advantage of the older hydro-mech engines in the past 
). I simply haven't seen an official NTSB statement on the thrusts selected by the crew, though if people tell me that "normal" usually implies flex I have no reason to quibble. I'd still like to have known the actual N1s set, though, to be sure. Hopefully that will be in the final report....
To be honest, if the first point at which they started to take corrective action was at the "whoa" point, it's impossible to know if firewalling would have been enough. All indications from the NTSB are that the plane almost got airborne - would an extra oomph of thrust have cleared the first, critical, obstacle? I suspect we'll never know.
Right now it's supposition that they didn't firewall the engines - maybe they did, and it's just never been included in the info released so far...
). I simply haven't seen an official NTSB statement on the thrusts selected by the crew, though if people tell me that "normal" usually implies flex I have no reason to quibble. I'd still like to have known the actual N1s set, though, to be sure. Hopefully that will be in the final report....To be honest, if the first point at which they started to take corrective action was at the "whoa" point, it's impossible to know if firewalling would have been enough. All indications from the NTSB are that the plane almost got airborne - would an extra oomph of thrust have cleared the first, critical, obstacle? I suspect we'll never know.
Right now it's supposition that they didn't firewall the engines - maybe they did, and it's just never been included in the info released so far...
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411A: what would you do if faced with stagnating airspeed, & running out of runway? (on runway windshear scenario)
I don't go back quite as far as the DC6, but close. The early big smokies for me, with last airiplane, the fat football, SP. And 411A, you must have a copy of my check list.
Nice aeroplane, especially the -6B.
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AC 120-71 - STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR FLIGHT DECK
CREWMEMBERS
U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
WINDSHEAR - TAKEOFF WHILE on the RUNWAY -- RECOVERY TECHNIQUE
Takeoff While on The Runway Recovery Technique
· THRUST
· Apply thrust aggressively (Firewall Power)
· PITCH
· Push go-around switch
· ROTATE TOWARD 15° NO LATER THAN 2,000 ft. REMAINING
· Increase beyond 15° if required to lift off
· Follow flight director
CREWMEMBERS
U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
WINDSHEAR - TAKEOFF WHILE on the RUNWAY -- RECOVERY TECHNIQUE
Takeoff While on The Runway Recovery Technique
· THRUST
· Apply thrust aggressively (Firewall Power)
· PITCH
· Push go-around switch
· ROTATE TOWARD 15° NO LATER THAN 2,000 ft. REMAINING
· Increase beyond 15° if required to lift off
· Follow flight director
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All well and good, punkalouver, but on the other hand, most of these 'windshear' problems are in the vicinity of thunderstorms over the airport, and as well all know (or, at least should know
) better to wait at the gate for the TS to pass well clear, rather than to try your luck getting airbourne at the least opportune time.
Older guys know this...younger guys have yet to learn...apparently.
) better to wait at the gate for the TS to pass well clear, rather than to try your luck getting airbourne at the least opportune time.Older guys know this...younger guys have yet to learn...apparently.
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411A
I assure you, except in the simulator, I have not performed said maneuver. Us middle age guys know enough to avoid thunderstorms/windshear/takeoff/landing etc.
but to have this tool in your back pocket might come in handy when you are out of runway and out of ideas all at the same time
there is crossover in all training...and had the comair crew done this windshear recovery, could they have staggered into the air and kept flying?
I know of one 737-400 that almost came to the same fate as comair...but did stagger into the air and survive using the aforementioned procedure.
I assure you, except in the simulator, I have not performed said maneuver. Us middle age guys know enough to avoid thunderstorms/windshear/takeoff/landing etc.
but to have this tool in your back pocket might come in handy when you are out of runway and out of ideas all at the same time
there is crossover in all training...and had the comair crew done this windshear recovery, could they have staggered into the air and kept flying?
I know of one 737-400 that almost came to the same fate as comair...but did stagger into the air and survive using the aforementioned procedure.
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I recall recurrent training sessions in the sim in these procedures, which at the time, were new. Brought about due to the 727 accident in MSY. I would hope that they are still applicable, have been improved upon, and made a part of crew training. .
