Pilot shortage affecting flight safety, analysts say
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: locally
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you look up Clark Aviation in Angeles City, Philippines you will see they have already set up this type of training facility you are all looking for and as fireflybob said was once around. This facility has nearly 90 new MPL students and some are over half way through their one year training.
pfd99
pfd99
...and just as enough pilots have been trained there'll be another world recession in air travel, with oil at $200+ and huge green taxes applied. Pilot supply has been 180 degrees around from demand for much of the history of aviation...
Let's bring it out into the light of day. This may appear a bit general and subjective, but let's not forget the so-called 'battle landscape' for the last several years. Napoleon was beaten at Waterloo partly because he assumed that the landscape was too flat to hide thousands of British troops (and with von Blucher's assistance to the Allies).
Each US airline, whether large or small, basically has a separate union when you look at the results. Whether unionized by ALPA (or heaven forbid-no representation), the recent results often indicate that each Master Council is an island unto itself
, despite various MECs' struggles to achieve similar rates of pay and benefits. 9/11 and the economy changed much of this. Some managements have over-reached the bankruptcy process in order to exploit labor groups, as never before. They might have improved upon old "FrankieSmooth Talk" Lorenzo. It was, for at least one US airline, a Dream Come True-with the collaboration of its (former) Master Council. The MEC Chairman and the company CEO were photographed together, as they were enroute to Congress in order to plead for deferred corporate payments owed to the PBGC (the pseudo-private Pension Benefit Guar. Corp.) etc.
ALPA has never set a minimum of pay for the industry, or a standard for a given aircraft/seat position. If most of the US industry is not already in the lowest sewer lagoon, it is headed there. The harsh reality is that within a given pilot group, especially in a large company which has various narrow/widebody operations, there can be three, four or even five sub-classes. Some of them have been treated by their former negotiators
as if they are a bit sub-human, in the aviation sense of the word, somewhere above the Untouchable caste-but not far. You've seen the newer Geico commercials with the Neanderthals?
And years ago 'in the good old days', managements strenuously objected to suggestions of managements' "pattern bargaining" strategies. What do you all suspect happens at ATA (Air Transport Association) conferences, in the back rooms
?
When Comair and Flight Safety in the early 90's combined forces in order to creatively exploit the vague language in the Delta MEC's 'scope clause'
, the RJs became the hot fashion-as hot as the EGT yellow arc during takeoff. Those pilots basically bought their jobs in the CRJ, and for about the same price as a jet type rating-but the FOs realized up front that there would be no type ratings, as part of the pre-hire package, according to "Aviation Week & ST". This early "foot in the door" directly contributed to the fact that tomorrow's/today's DC-9 and B-737 is either a CRJ or the newer Emb-170/190. There go thousands of major airline jobs, which thousands of young pilots will never have. In about three years from now, about a third of potential US major airline jobs will be gone, compared to the 70's, 80's and 90's.
Added note: to augment (like a 13-stage valve) what later posters describe.
Even if many future (RJs) have 90 seats, what do the new, young pilots believe that they will pay, in today's dollars? Anywhere near 90% pay of the previous (or present...) pay on a 100-seat DC-9, which will be mostly gone in a few years? Back in 86-87, NWA's FO's were paid about $2800/month in the second year ($3500 in 3rd), and it kept increasing. What would that equate to NOW?
Sadly, no matter how despicable the pay is now, (are egos still the basic "pilot opium"?: that's why so many crossed the picket lines at at CO and Eastern, in order to strut around in those gold stripes after marching from a greasy jet..), the RJs already have replaced a serious fraction of major airline jobs. Almost all DC-9s and 737s (100-122 seat category) will soon be gone and they are not coming back, in terms of pay (the F-100 jets are long gone). "But wait until we make Captain on the ERJ-190....". OK-but at far less than half the purchasing power of a DC-9/737 a few years ago, in equivalent dollars, for flying the Exact Same City-Pairs, and with max. duty days now at 15, instead of 13-14 hours. PS: Compass has no written contract for pay. So promises will be acceptable? JetBlue pays about 85$ as ERJ Captain in about the 1st, 2nd year. "My personal contract lasts 5 years.." Okay Rambo, an "army of one". The Roman army would have dissolved and never survived, without solid shield walls and strict group discipline. "Did somebody say Romans?" Some of todays airline upper mgmts are fiercer and more deceptive than Arminius' (Hermann's) tribes ever were.
Each US airline, whether large or small, basically has a separate union when you look at the results. Whether unionized by ALPA (or heaven forbid-no representation), the recent results often indicate that each Master Council is an island unto itself
, despite various MECs' struggles to achieve similar rates of pay and benefits. 9/11 and the economy changed much of this. Some managements have over-reached the bankruptcy process in order to exploit labor groups, as never before. They might have improved upon old "FrankieSmooth Talk" Lorenzo. It was, for at least one US airline, a Dream Come True-with the collaboration of its (former) Master Council. The MEC Chairman and the company CEO were photographed together, as they were enroute to Congress in order to plead for deferred corporate payments owed to the PBGC (the pseudo-private Pension Benefit Guar. Corp.) etc.ALPA has never set a minimum of pay for the industry, or a standard for a given aircraft/seat position. If most of the US industry is not already in the lowest sewer lagoon, it is headed there. The harsh reality is that within a given pilot group, especially in a large company which has various narrow/widebody operations, there can be three, four or even five sub-classes. Some of them have been treated by their former negotiators
as if they are a bit sub-human, in the aviation sense of the word, somewhere above the Untouchable caste-but not far. You've seen the newer Geico commercials with the Neanderthals?And years ago 'in the good old days', managements strenuously objected to suggestions of managements' "pattern bargaining" strategies. What do you all suspect happens at ATA (Air Transport Association) conferences, in the back rooms
?When Comair and Flight Safety in the early 90's combined forces in order to creatively exploit the vague language in the Delta MEC's 'scope clause'
, the RJs became the hot fashion-as hot as the EGT yellow arc during takeoff. Those pilots basically bought their jobs in the CRJ, and for about the same price as a jet type rating-but the FOs realized up front that there would be no type ratings, as part of the pre-hire package, according to "Aviation Week & ST". This early "foot in the door" directly contributed to the fact that tomorrow's/today's DC-9 and B-737 is either a CRJ or the newer Emb-170/190. There go thousands of major airline jobs, which thousands of young pilots will never have. In about three years from now, about a third of potential US major airline jobs will be gone, compared to the 70's, 80's and 90's.Added note: to augment (like a 13-stage valve) what later posters describe.
Even if many future (RJs) have 90 seats, what do the new, young pilots believe that they will pay, in today's dollars? Anywhere near 90% pay of the previous (or present...) pay on a 100-seat DC-9, which will be mostly gone in a few years? Back in 86-87, NWA's FO's were paid about $2800/month in the second year ($3500 in 3rd), and it kept increasing. What would that equate to NOW?
Sadly, no matter how despicable the pay is now, (are egos still the basic "pilot opium"?: that's why so many crossed the picket lines at at CO and Eastern, in order to strut around in those gold stripes after marching from a greasy jet
..), the RJs already have replaced a serious fraction of major airline jobs. Almost all DC-9s and 737s (100-122 seat category) will soon be gone and they are not coming back, in terms of pay (the F-100 jets are long gone). "But wait until we make Captain on the ERJ-190....". OK-but at far less than half the purchasing power of a DC-9/737 a few years ago, in equivalent dollars, for flying the Exact Same City-Pairs, and with max. duty days now at 15, instead of 13-14 hours. PS: Compass has no written contract for pay. So promises will be acceptable? JetBlue pays about 85$ as ERJ Captain in about the 1st, 2nd year. "My personal contract lasts 5 years.." Okay Rambo, an "army of one". The Roman army would have dissolved and never survived, without solid shield walls and strict group discipline. "Did somebody say Romans?" Some of todays airline upper mgmts are fiercer and more deceptive than Arminius' (Hermann's) tribes ever were.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 23rd Jul 2007 at 06:40.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Used to be different
Well put, Ignition Override...
xxx
I look at what is happening now or in the very near future in USA, and already happens in Europe and the rest of the world... And I remember how it was when I got hired by PanAm...
xxx
1966-1969 era... To be hired then, it took a CPL/IR minimum (no ME required, just a C-150 type rating), for some carriers, i.e. Piedmont, Allegheny, Frontier, Air West, Mohawk or Southen Air... 200/250 hours total time would have you to be considered for F/O on a Convair 440, Martin 404 or Fairchild F-27. High school diploma. For the majors, Eastern, American, United, TWA, PanAm, maybe a slight preference for ex-military, but same basic minimums would get you considered. Back then, your initial position with the majors was almost always F/E, where you stayed at least 1 year, learning the trade from the guys who had a "window seat"...
xxx
I remember United, who had the Pilot Advance Acceptance Program "PAAP" where pilots were hired with a PPL, and they signed a bank loan for you to get the $3,000 advance to buy the CPL/IR training. I got hired by PanAm, being from Brussels, I wanted to fly to Europe and be home very often. I had a Green Card... I also had a class date for TWA, but they said that flying overseas required a few years seniority. Back then Eastern was the biggest airline in the US... The DC-6s and Connies were being retired...
xxx
PanAm had wonderful plans back then, a 747 order for 25 airplanes, and the Boeing SST (was it 8 airplanes), possibly even a few Concordes to supplement the SST fleet. According to the welcome briefing, we all would be F/Os withing 1 year, and captains withing 5 years of hiring date.
My initial training was long, took 3 months classroom, simulator and line training in MIA to qualify as F/E 727. I remember my oral exam lasted a whole day. Then I got to be "reserve" for 2 months, I got 2 or 3 flights. Then was informed that they required F/Es on the 707s, so I asked for that transition, this time, only 2 months of training again in MIA. Thereafter, a couple of months of reserve, then flights became more frequent.
xxx
I remember Continental, where they had a crisis with captain upgrades in 1968, because many F/Os were to be upgraded, but did not have the age minimums (23) to hold the required ATPL...
xxx
How was the pay, well, it was peanuts, but livable. $750/mo for the first 6 months, and $850 the second 6 months, per diem $2.oo/hr... Thereafter, you could expect some $1,600-1,800/mo. Back then, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I had a '61 Corvair, and at JFK, new hires joined together to rent an apartment on Queens Blvd area, 5 or 6 pilots per 3 bedroom apartment, each pilot paid $100-150/mo. A hamburger meal was $4.oo, coffee and tip included.
xxx
All went fine, I ended up 727 F/O, then soon 707 F/O, had passed my ATPL written, even received the type ratings. Then the 1973 October War... Subsequent months, layoffs and the industry started to self destroy.
xxx
So my friends, compare that to what the industry offers now. Gasoline is 10 times the price it was in 1968. I paid my used Corvair $800, now, a decent used car is $5,000 or more. Dinner is now $20/25... Rent is 5 times as high as it was back then... and if you fly overseas, do not mention what your US dollar pays in the Euro economy. Yet, your salary, is double only, compared to mine in 1970. Your per diem... maybe only double also...
xxx
Shall we also mention that most if not all of you have to reach 1,500/2,500 hours, and the ATPL, and buy a type rating in your CRJ to get a job... All that equates to a minimum of $50,000+ investment. And... were you hired, or are you still working as a CFI and looking for a "regional F/O job"...?
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I look at what is happening now or in the very near future in USA, and already happens in Europe and the rest of the world... And I remember how it was when I got hired by PanAm...
xxx
1966-1969 era... To be hired then, it took a CPL/IR minimum (no ME required, just a C-150 type rating), for some carriers, i.e. Piedmont, Allegheny, Frontier, Air West, Mohawk or Southen Air... 200/250 hours total time would have you to be considered for F/O on a Convair 440, Martin 404 or Fairchild F-27. High school diploma. For the majors, Eastern, American, United, TWA, PanAm, maybe a slight preference for ex-military, but same basic minimums would get you considered. Back then, your initial position with the majors was almost always F/E, where you stayed at least 1 year, learning the trade from the guys who had a "window seat"...
xxx
I remember United, who had the Pilot Advance Acceptance Program "PAAP" where pilots were hired with a PPL, and they signed a bank loan for you to get the $3,000 advance to buy the CPL/IR training. I got hired by PanAm, being from Brussels, I wanted to fly to Europe and be home very often. I had a Green Card... I also had a class date for TWA, but they said that flying overseas required a few years seniority. Back then Eastern was the biggest airline in the US... The DC-6s and Connies were being retired...
xxx
PanAm had wonderful plans back then, a 747 order for 25 airplanes, and the Boeing SST (was it 8 airplanes), possibly even a few Concordes to supplement the SST fleet. According to the welcome briefing, we all would be F/Os withing 1 year, and captains withing 5 years of hiring date.
My initial training was long, took 3 months classroom, simulator and line training in MIA to qualify as F/E 727. I remember my oral exam lasted a whole day. Then I got to be "reserve" for 2 months, I got 2 or 3 flights. Then was informed that they required F/Es on the 707s, so I asked for that transition, this time, only 2 months of training again in MIA. Thereafter, a couple of months of reserve, then flights became more frequent.
xxx
I remember Continental, where they had a crisis with captain upgrades in 1968, because many F/Os were to be upgraded, but did not have the age minimums (23) to hold the required ATPL...
xxx
How was the pay, well, it was peanuts, but livable. $750/mo for the first 6 months, and $850 the second 6 months, per diem $2.oo/hr... Thereafter, you could expect some $1,600-1,800/mo. Back then, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I had a '61 Corvair, and at JFK, new hires joined together to rent an apartment on Queens Blvd area, 5 or 6 pilots per 3 bedroom apartment, each pilot paid $100-150/mo. A hamburger meal was $4.oo, coffee and tip included.
xxx
All went fine, I ended up 727 F/O, then soon 707 F/O, had passed my ATPL written, even received the type ratings. Then the 1973 October War... Subsequent months, layoffs and the industry started to self destroy.
xxx
So my friends, compare that to what the industry offers now. Gasoline is 10 times the price it was in 1968. I paid my used Corvair $800, now, a decent used car is $5,000 or more. Dinner is now $20/25... Rent is 5 times as high as it was back then... and if you fly overseas, do not mention what your US dollar pays in the Euro economy. Yet, your salary, is double only, compared to mine in 1970. Your per diem... maybe only double also...
xxx
Shall we also mention that most if not all of you have to reach 1,500/2,500 hours, and the ATPL, and buy a type rating in your CRJ to get a job... All that equates to a minimum of $50,000+ investment. And... were you hired, or are you still working as a CFI and looking for a "regional F/O job"...?
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BelArgUSA,
I enjoyed reading your post very much, but I seem to remember things a little different, maybe I'm a little confused as to specific airlines or dates.
Here's the way I rember things then, based on your post- comment as you wish as I could definetly be a little fuzzy:
In the mid 60's United had a program that if you had a commercial and two years of college they would guarantee you a class-date as soon as you graduated. I can't say how many were hired under that program. Problem was, by 1969 they had less than a handful of those hirees still with them because they could not maintain United's standards.
As I remember F/E's at United were making 20,000/yr.
I really can't think of any time period when Eastern was the largest airline in the U.S. I am real sure that by the time UAL took over Capitol Airlines they were the largest in the U.S. until American took over TWA. I believe United had been the largest since at least the early 50's.
By the late 60's, commuters were hiring co-pilots with all the certificates and ratings and 1000 hours at about $800/mo, and direct entry captains at $1500/mo- and the a/c back then flew max of 19 pax.
Todays RJ are 50 or more, pay about the same. Apparently too many people are willing to fly for free.
I enjoyed reading your post very much, but I seem to remember things a little different, maybe I'm a little confused as to specific airlines or dates.
Here's the way I rember things then, based on your post- comment as you wish as I could definetly be a little fuzzy:
In the mid 60's United had a program that if you had a commercial and two years of college they would guarantee you a class-date as soon as you graduated. I can't say how many were hired under that program. Problem was, by 1969 they had less than a handful of those hirees still with them because they could not maintain United's standards.
As I remember F/E's at United were making 20,000/yr.
I really can't think of any time period when Eastern was the largest airline in the U.S. I am real sure that by the time UAL took over Capitol Airlines they were the largest in the U.S. until American took over TWA. I believe United had been the largest since at least the early 50's.
By the late 60's, commuters were hiring co-pilots with all the certificates and ratings and 1000 hours at about $800/mo, and direct entry captains at $1500/mo- and the a/c back then flew max of 19 pax.
Todays RJ are 50 or more, pay about the same. Apparently too many people are willing to fly for free.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that this thread is important as this situation is spinning out of control. It is going to get much much worse in terms of incidents and accidents. Everyone is driven by the almighty dollar and aviation safety and standards is the casualty.Atleast pilots tend to have voice to say something about this situation.
Consider our engineering colleagues, they are further down the slope and they have very little voice in reality. I think long gone are the days you could rely on the guy coming up to sign your airplane to be a walking type specific data-base. The industry really worries me at present technically in terms of who is flying and who is fixing them.
Consider our engineering colleagues, they are further down the slope and they have very little voice in reality. I think long gone are the days you could rely on the guy coming up to sign your airplane to be a walking type specific data-base. The industry really worries me at present technically in terms of who is flying and who is fixing them.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like my friend, BelArgUSA, I too was trained at PanAmerican (B707) and was lucky enough to slot right directly into the LHS, overseas.
This was in the very early seventies, and airline FD positions were very hard to come by in the USA.
I received some very good advce back then from an 'old hand' in the business...get your Command and head offshore.
I did so and never looked back.
The wages for pilots at that time overseas were quite good (and mostly tax-free), and the supply of commanders short.
It's all gone backwards since then, as a close look at the middle east forum will undoubtedly testify.
The bloom has definitely gone off the rose.
Still, at the pointy end, the job can be enjoyable, even if the pay has subsided.
This was in the very early seventies, and airline FD positions were very hard to come by in the USA.
I received some very good advce back then from an 'old hand' in the business...get your Command and head offshore.
I did so and never looked back.
The wages for pilots at that time overseas were quite good (and mostly tax-free), and the supply of commanders short.
It's all gone backwards since then, as a close look at the middle east forum will undoubtedly testify.
The bloom has definitely gone off the rose.
Still, at the pointy end, the job can be enjoyable, even if the pay has subsided.
What prevents US airlines from recruiting overseas for the pilot shortage? The FAA or TSA's background security checks?
Years ago, an Asian country (or airline) paid a regional airline in the Midwest to use its new FOs on turboprops, in order to help them acquire real-world experience before returning to the home country.
The airline supposedly spent little or none of its money for these FOs.
Other than language handicaps or security complications, what would stop US airlines from putting pressure on Cabinet-level people in order to expedite this process and cut corners? These VIP career ticket-punchers are appointed by whoever resides in the White House. We know what corners were cut by Reagan and Bush Sr. (in their worlds majority stockholders are perfumed princes-staff/workers the unlettered scum) in order to allow, by rubber-stamping anything, the "glory of deregulation" to blossom (according to John Nance, it directly caused the deaths of many passengers By the way, Nance's first edition of the book about Braniff Airlines [and 'allegedly' AMR's Sabre computer res. system], "Splash of Colors" was never allowed into bookstores etc...).
We read in "Aviation Week & ST" in the 90s about various US govt. DOT Administrative Judges who ruled in favor of whatever TAC issues were presented, and somehow found jobs waiting at Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. after government retirement. Coincidence? Much of the present situation here began when Congress (+Senator Kennedy with Pres. Carter and a motley crew) and others were charmed by the highly flawed economic theories of that formerly academic deregulation 'guru' jackass, Mr. Alfred Kahn. He already owned so much allegedly real or tentative airline stock (allegedly courtesy of the Texas Air Corporation
) that he was clearly unbiased in his obscure, convoluted arguement$.
What will stop some of these elements from returning to further damage the US airlines via the backdoor, as the nation is focused on the Middle East and the intellectually (for most of the USA...:
) challenging concept of how long celebrities remain in the LA jail?
Years ago, an Asian country (or airline) paid a regional airline in the Midwest to use its new FOs on turboprops, in order to help them acquire real-world experience before returning to the home country.
The airline supposedly spent little or none of its money for these FOs.
Other than language handicaps or security complications, what would stop US airlines from putting pressure on Cabinet-level people in order to expedite this process and cut corners? These VIP career ticket-punchers are appointed by whoever resides in the White House. We know what corners were cut by Reagan and Bush Sr. (in their worlds majority stockholders are perfumed princes-staff/workers the unlettered scum) in order to allow, by rubber-stamping anything, the "glory of deregulation" to blossom (according to John Nance, it directly caused the deaths of many passengers
By the way, Nance's first edition of the book about Braniff Airlines [and 'allegedly' AMR's Sabre computer res. system], "Splash of Colors" was never allowed into bookstores etc...). We read in "Aviation Week & ST" in the 90s about various US govt. DOT Administrative Judges who ruled in favor of whatever TAC issues were presented, and somehow found jobs waiting at Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. after government retirement. Coincidence? Much of the present situation here began when Congress (+Senator Kennedy with Pres. Carter and a motley crew) and others were charmed by the highly flawed economic theories of that formerly academic deregulation 'guru' jackass, Mr. Alfred Kahn. He already owned so much allegedly real or tentative airline stock (allegedly courtesy of the Texas Air Corporation
) that he was clearly unbiased in his obscure, convoluted arguement$.What will stop some of these elements from returning to further damage the US airlines via the backdoor, as the nation is focused on the Middle East and the intellectually (for most of the USA...:
) challenging concept of how long celebrities remain in the LA jail?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 25th Jul 2007 at 06:11.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yesTAM is quite correct.
There is no shortage of suitable, bright young people who want a career in aviation. Over the last ten years the airlines have been looking for people who will spend £50K of their own money for training, then more for a type rating, then pay for simulator, medicals etc. Work long days including weekends and bank holidays for a salary of around 2/3 of the average wage.
There is no pilot shortage, but there is a shortage of people who are that desperate for flying rather than the law, computing, accountancy or medicine as a career.
When the airllines wake up to the fact that they are going to have to pay the going rate for qualified professionals then they will find plenty of applicants.
There is no shortage of suitable, bright young people who want a career in aviation. Over the last ten years the airlines have been looking for people who will spend £50K of their own money for training, then more for a type rating, then pay for simulator, medicals etc. Work long days including weekends and bank holidays for a salary of around 2/3 of the average wage.
There is no pilot shortage, but there is a shortage of people who are that desperate for flying rather than the law, computing, accountancy or medicine as a career.
When the airllines wake up to the fact that they are going to have to pay the going rate for qualified professionals then they will find plenty of applicants.
Last edited by Seat1APlease; 23rd Jul 2007 at 11:41.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Attn.: Bob Lenahan
Affirm, Bob, regarding United and its fleet size. I think that Eastern, right around 1968-1970, had more "revenue passenger/miles" than anyone else... PanAm had the most extensive routes in miles (but some flown only weekly).
xxx
Funny is, UAL remained strictly domestic + HNL for decades, and AA was strictly the lower 48 and Mexico City in the same era... Delta was barely more than a "regional" carrier... then the big merges started, United ate Capital, American ate Trans Carribean, Delta ate Northeast and Western and finally the so called domestic majors became international by carving into the routes from PanAm, Eastern and Braniff... Then we saw the Frank Lorenzos and the Carl Icahns coming out of the dark...
xxx
Oh, at times, snotty "PanAmigos" were looking down on the new entrants on the Pacific, Atlantic and South America areas... we were "superior international expert pilots" (right?) - and the dumb-estic pilots were nothing.
xxx
I remember being at home in LA, about 1977-78, being invited to interview for Air California, and declining because I was an "international 707 captain" on an ACMI to Saudia or Pakistan then (and PanAm layoff)... all because for me, a 737 F/O position for an intrastate carrier was next to nothing. By now, all the old timers from AirCal are probably captains with AA on 767 or 777...
xxx
But what disgusted me the most, being finally a PanAm 747 captain in 1989, was to be interviewed by Delta in early 1992 after our Chapter 7... I was offered a F/E 727 position, paying about $1,800 gross (how gross) for the first year. Back then Delta prohibited jump seating on company flights for commuting. Commuting was only cabin seat, space available. And you should have heard some of the personal questions their HR department asked me about my then girl friend (not being married)... and if I was active in church activities, etc... I remember many ex-PanAm F/As crying when they described their interviews and questions they were asked (do you practice birth control...?).
xxx
Dont ask me why I expatriated myself... and glad to have left, sold all I had in California, with a personal Chapter 7 and a foreclosure... My pension for PanAm... you would laugh... And at least where I am, Argentina, I can continue to fly to 65 age, and with 14 years of service with them, my retirement will be double of PanAm's...
xxx
One thing to say, today's salaries and benefits stink. US airlines had to deal with an exponential increase of fuel costs, but never cared to increase the salaries of crews and maintenance to reflect today's cost-of-living proportions. In Europe and Asia, they are behind too, but not as much as the USA. Then read these wanabees from Europe and Asia crying for a pilot job in the USA... they must have a mental deficiency, thereby probably inapt to qualify for a Class 1 medical...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Funny is, UAL remained strictly domestic + HNL for decades, and AA was strictly the lower 48 and Mexico City in the same era... Delta was barely more than a "regional" carrier... then the big merges started, United ate Capital, American ate Trans Carribean, Delta ate Northeast and Western and finally the so called domestic majors became international by carving into the routes from PanAm, Eastern and Braniff... Then we saw the Frank Lorenzos and the Carl Icahns coming out of the dark...
xxx
Oh, at times, snotty "PanAmigos" were looking down on the new entrants on the Pacific, Atlantic and South America areas... we were "superior international expert pilots" (right?) - and the dumb-estic pilots were nothing.
xxx
I remember being at home in LA, about 1977-78, being invited to interview for Air California, and declining because I was an "international 707 captain" on an ACMI to Saudia or Pakistan then (and PanAm layoff)... all because for me, a 737 F/O position for an intrastate carrier was next to nothing. By now, all the old timers from AirCal are probably captains with AA on 767 or 777...
xxx
But what disgusted me the most, being finally a PanAm 747 captain in 1989, was to be interviewed by Delta in early 1992 after our Chapter 7... I was offered a F/E 727 position, paying about $1,800 gross (how gross) for the first year. Back then Delta prohibited jump seating on company flights for commuting. Commuting was only cabin seat, space available. And you should have heard some of the personal questions their HR department asked me about my then girl friend (not being married)... and if I was active in church activities, etc... I remember many ex-PanAm F/As crying when they described their interviews and questions they were asked (do you practice birth control...?).
xxx
Dont ask me why I expatriated myself... and glad to have left, sold all I had in California, with a personal Chapter 7 and a foreclosure... My pension for PanAm... you would laugh... And at least where I am, Argentina, I can continue to fly to 65 age, and with 14 years of service with them, my retirement will be double of PanAm's...
xxx
One thing to say, today's salaries and benefits stink. US airlines had to deal with an exponential increase of fuel costs, but never cared to increase the salaries of crews and maintenance to reflect today's cost-of-living proportions. In Europe and Asia, they are behind too, but not as much as the USA. Then read these wanabees from Europe and Asia crying for a pilot job in the USA... they must have a mental deficiency, thereby probably inapt to qualify for a Class 1 medical...
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Have any of you lot actually read the 'wannabes' forum?
There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young uns sitting there discussing the relative merits of where to go to spend their £50K for licence followed by £25K for type rating followed by £15K for buy-hours-on-type "line training program".
Yes I know from where we sit they are all clearly out of their freakin minds, but they all "seem" normal and intelligent enough.
Lets be honest the desire to get into aviation was never exactly one that was motivated by rational financial analysis of risk benefit reward. Every little boy wants to be a pilot or a rock star or a pro footballer when they grow up, and I'm afraid the chances of a genuine shortage developing at the entry level to this industry are indeed about as high as Simon Cowell running out of candidates for Pop Idol, or Man U running out of kids trying out for their academy. The problem is EXPERIENCE, the one thing that can't be bought and sold (although certain of these buy-hours-on-type programs are trying to kid the punters otherwise).
The pay rates for expat contractors, particularly captains, have in fact gone up a lot in the last 5 years and I reckon they'll have to go up a lot further yet.
The pilot shortage is in fact here but it's a different pilot shortage to what it was back in the day. Cathay and Emirates have historically been the holy grail of big expat gravy trains but ask anyone who works there now and they'll tell you those days are long gone, largely due to pay rates not keeping up with cost of living over the last 20 years (and Hong Kong and Dubai now being some of the most expensive places in the world to live).
The smart expat pilot money now is sitting in a left seat in India (and soon to be China when it properly opens up) where you can still have a good standard of living for relatively cheap and stick most of your take home pay into a savings account at the end of the month, instead of certain other old-school expat jobs where it seems you now have to spend over half your income on renting a decent house. Hopefully as the aviation industry keeps booming in those countries and the packages become lucrative enough to start tempting people away from established western and other expat airlines, the rest of the world will have to start playing catch up.
There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young uns sitting there discussing the relative merits of where to go to spend their £50K for licence followed by £25K for type rating followed by £15K for buy-hours-on-type "line training program".
Yes I know from where we sit they are all clearly out of their freakin minds, but they all "seem" normal and intelligent enough.
Lets be honest the desire to get into aviation was never exactly one that was motivated by rational financial analysis of risk benefit reward. Every little boy wants to be a pilot or a rock star or a pro footballer when they grow up, and I'm afraid the chances of a genuine shortage developing at the entry level to this industry are indeed about as high as Simon Cowell running out of candidates for Pop Idol, or Man U running out of kids trying out for their academy. The problem is EXPERIENCE, the one thing that can't be bought and sold (although certain of these buy-hours-on-type programs are trying to kid the punters otherwise).
The pay rates for expat contractors, particularly captains, have in fact gone up a lot in the last 5 years and I reckon they'll have to go up a lot further yet.
The pilot shortage is in fact here but it's a different pilot shortage to what it was back in the day. Cathay and Emirates have historically been the holy grail of big expat gravy trains but ask anyone who works there now and they'll tell you those days are long gone, largely due to pay rates not keeping up with cost of living over the last 20 years (and Hong Kong and Dubai now being some of the most expensive places in the world to live).
The smart expat pilot money now is sitting in a left seat in India (and soon to be China when it properly opens up) where you can still have a good standard of living for relatively cheap and stick most of your take home pay into a savings account at the end of the month, instead of certain other old-school expat jobs where it seems you now have to spend over half your income on renting a decent house. Hopefully as the aviation industry keeps booming in those countries and the packages become lucrative enough to start tempting people away from established western and other expat airlines, the rest of the world will have to start playing catch up.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 23rd Jul 2007 at 13:26.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For heaven's sake...
Just about every thread on pprune includes blaming whatever problem is being discussed on THE LOW-COST AIRLINES. Get real. The airlines perceived as low-cost are simply businesses that operate efficiently in the face of stiff competition. As opposed to all those "aaah the good old days" airlines who thrived because they had route monopoly and government backing. And they still have not learned their lesson. Just flew with an ex-Connect guy who said the amount spent on needless taxis (one person per taxi please) probably canceled out any chance at making a profit on some routes. We should come up with a new naming convention, where LoCo are called Airlines and (most) legacy flag carriers HiCo Airlines.
To go back to the pilot shortage, there is NO WAY EZY or Ryan would let FOs that don't make the grade pass the line check get into the right seat. They are far too aware of the repercussions one or two crashes would have. If this shortage is to have an effect on safety, it will be with the parts of the world where safety is already questionable. And you can't blame "Low Costs" for that.
Like Full Wings said, the output of trained pilots will eventually catch up. Just in time for the next recession
P
Just about every thread on pprune includes blaming whatever problem is being discussed on THE LOW-COST AIRLINES. Get real. The airlines perceived as low-cost are simply businesses that operate efficiently in the face of stiff competition. As opposed to all those "aaah the good old days" airlines who thrived because they had route monopoly and government backing. And they still have not learned their lesson. Just flew with an ex-Connect guy who said the amount spent on needless taxis (one person per taxi please) probably canceled out any chance at making a profit on some routes. We should come up with a new naming convention, where LoCo are called Airlines and (most) legacy flag carriers HiCo Airlines.
To go back to the pilot shortage, there is NO WAY EZY or Ryan would let FOs that don't make the grade pass the line check get into the right seat. They are far too aware of the repercussions one or two crashes would have. If this shortage is to have an effect on safety, it will be with the parts of the world where safety is already questionable. And you can't blame "Low Costs" for that.
Like Full Wings said, the output of trained pilots will eventually catch up. Just in time for the next recession
P
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hotels everywhere
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure the trained pilot output will catch up.
Like the Airline cadet who recently failed his first comm/IF test, then proceeded to crash the Seneca on the second attempt. And the Airline sponsoring him from somewhere East ( India? ) said they are booking him a third IF test - he has to pass cause his 738 simulator was booked and he needs to be online at this airline in three months....
This was in California somewhere I think....
Like the Airline cadet who recently failed his first comm/IF test, then proceeded to crash the Seneca on the second attempt. And the Airline sponsoring him from somewhere East ( India? ) said they are booking him a third IF test - he has to pass cause his 738 simulator was booked and he needs to be online at this airline in three months....
This was in California somewhere I think....
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BelArgUSA, good post- enjoyed it.
Permafrost, "there is no way..." Are you serious? Are you really that naive? Companies putting in inexperienced AND/OR incompetant pilots (which I have seen) do not expect them to crash. They don't believe they will. Take any flight- the odds are in your favor. Inexperienced pilots are hired because the bean counters can get them cheap.
When I dead-headed someplace I always checked who the flight crew was going to be. Sometimes I waited for the next flight.
Permafrost, "there is no way..." Are you serious? Are you really that naive? Companies putting in inexperienced AND/OR incompetant pilots (which I have seen) do not expect them to crash. They don't believe they will. Take any flight- the odds are in your favor. Inexperienced pilots are hired because the bean counters can get them cheap.
When I dead-headed someplace I always checked who the flight crew was going to be. Sometimes I waited for the next flight.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EZY and Ryan have been going for 10 years, where are the crashes? You can't say "it's only a matter of time" forever. Of course it'll happen some day, but EVERY ex-BA, SA, VS, etc. old timer I have flown with at EZY says that the safety culture at EZY is remarkable.
And no I am not that naive. Airlines have been using cadets for decades. It's never been a problem at safety conscious airlines, otherwise they would have stopped. So why would it a problem when it comes down to safety conscious "LoCo" airlines???
Let's look at it objectively. Airline A has paid every penny of the training of Cadet A and they have to make a tough decision because Cadet A has failed his line check twice. Same situation with Airline B, which has spent next to nothing on Cadet B (since he/she is self-sponsored). Now can you honestly say that Airline B would hesitate more before chopping Cadet B than vice versa???
Out of something like 350 pilots to be hired at EZY next year, 50 or so will be CTC cadets. The rest will come from other airlines. That sounds like a reasonable ratio to me. Given the number of unemployed fATPL guys out there, EZY could hire 175 ab initio guys for the RHS if they wanted to...
Like I said in my first post, my opinion is only based on safety conscious airlines (nothing to do with Low/High cost). The pilot shortage WILL make things even less safe at the rest of the bunch. And that's scary.
And no I am not that naive. Airlines have been using cadets for decades. It's never been a problem at safety conscious airlines, otherwise they would have stopped. So why would it a problem when it comes down to safety conscious "LoCo" airlines???
Let's look at it objectively. Airline A has paid every penny of the training of Cadet A and they have to make a tough decision because Cadet A has failed his line check twice. Same situation with Airline B, which has spent next to nothing on Cadet B (since he/she is self-sponsored). Now can you honestly say that Airline B would hesitate more before chopping Cadet B than vice versa???
Out of something like 350 pilots to be hired at EZY next year, 50 or so will be CTC cadets. The rest will come from other airlines. That sounds like a reasonable ratio to me. Given the number of unemployed fATPL guys out there, EZY could hire 175 ab initio guys for the RHS if they wanted to...
Like the Airline cadet who recently failed his first comm/IF test, then proceeded to crash the Seneca on the second attempt. And the Airline sponsoring him from somewhere East ( India? ) said they are booking him a third IF test - he has to pass cause his 738 simulator was booked and he needs to be online at this airline in three months....
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
on the "light side"...
Just to mention to the "anglos" here, that "LOCO" in Spanish means crazy...
As my mind is tune to Spanish, maybe is the way I think of these air carriers.
Happy contrails
As my mind is tune to Spanish, maybe is the way I think of these air carriers.
Happy contrails
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing I would say to those who cringe at the thought of a 'cadet' being in a B737 or Airbus cockpit with FR or EZY. The TQ training for both, we assume, is quite good. The line training we hear is also focused and of good quality. What I have observed in this type of enviroment, where pilots are doing 50-60 sectors per month, is that a capable, keen, intelligent cadet is on a very steep learning curve, and after 6 months is a far more capable aviator than someone trawlling the skies for +12 hours in a long-haul widebody. They may start green and wet behind the ears, but those who shape up become excellent handlers very quickly. The stuff between the ears comes with time, but the rate of data processing for the grey matter between those ears is huge. The same was true in the charter world, but at a slightly slower rate due to less sectors. However, the variety of the daily challenges was vast. Again, trolling in an out of major CAT 3 ILS airfields allowing ATC to fly the a/c, does not present anywhere near the airmanship education that Greek island or small French airfield operations does.
I can think of many an 'experienced' old wag in the LHS who scared the pants of me with some of their antics, plus some slightly old F/O's from dubious background airlines, who demonstrated equally shoddy airmanship, despite having plenty of hours. The average + calibre cadets, generally, show good common sense in their early days. It's when you fly with them after 1 year and they have started to copy some of the more gungho techniques they have seen form some fo those 'older wags' that I start to become concerned.
I can think of many an 'experienced' old wag in the LHS who scared the pants of me with some of their antics, plus some slightly old F/O's from dubious background airlines, who demonstrated equally shoddy airmanship, despite having plenty of hours. The average + calibre cadets, generally, show good common sense in their early days. It's when you fly with them after 1 year and they have started to copy some of the more gungho techniques they have seen form some fo those 'older wags' that I start to become concerned.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a nice house
Posts: 981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is one of the worst examples of "journalism" I have ever read!
"veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing. Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed"
He only took flaps "seconds" before landing? He landed at DOUBLE the normal landing speed? Like to see that one! I'd like to see him fly an approach at 250 knots and I'd like to see what happens to the flaps when you pull them at that speed.
"According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License."
Er, yes, coz most of those are private pilots... doesn't exactly spell it out does it? Obviously couldn't be bothered to find out the actual number of airline pilots.
"In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations - including the United States - are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years."
No mention of Europe already being 65 years.
"Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains."
Yep, that has been happening now for how many years? Must be around 20 or more?
"But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance."
Hmm, so how do they reckon any pilot new to flying airliners gets trained then? Has this journalist not heard of Training Captains?
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
No, according to our CAA anyway, the maximum hours limitations are to prevent fatigue. Allegedly.
"The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut - the Multi-Crew Pilot License - where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries."
Well the original Approved Course was only 12-18 months long.
"supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet"
So they mean a Training Captain and a Safety Pilot yes? With the new pilot in the RHS. Like most airlines in the UK do now anyway?
I do believe there is a shortage of experienced pilots. Thomsonfly for example took Direct Entry Captains a couple of years back.
And the MPL has been reduced and reduced and I believe is currently planned with no independent examiner for the final check and no ongoing monitoring or feedback of standards of this licence - something BALPA were campaigning for. The CAA seem to have been a bit rattled by the Unions anti-feeling and seem to be backtracking a bit and now saying they are not in full support of it. Could be interesting...
"veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing. Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed"
He only took flaps "seconds" before landing? He landed at DOUBLE the normal landing speed? Like to see that one! I'd like to see him fly an approach at 250 knots and I'd like to see what happens to the flaps when you pull them at that speed.
"According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License."
Er, yes, coz most of those are private pilots... doesn't exactly spell it out does it? Obviously couldn't be bothered to find out the actual number of airline pilots.
"In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations - including the United States - are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years."
No mention of Europe already being 65 years.
"Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains."
Yep, that has been happening now for how many years? Must be around 20 or more?
"But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance."
Hmm, so how do they reckon any pilot new to flying airliners gets trained then? Has this journalist not heard of Training Captains?
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
No, according to our CAA anyway, the maximum hours limitations are to prevent fatigue. Allegedly.
"The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut - the Multi-Crew Pilot License - where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries."
Well the original Approved Course was only 12-18 months long.
"supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet"
So they mean a Training Captain and a Safety Pilot yes? With the new pilot in the RHS. Like most airlines in the UK do now anyway?
I do believe there is a shortage of experienced pilots. Thomsonfly for example took Direct Entry Captains a couple of years back.
And the MPL has been reduced and reduced and I believe is currently planned with no independent examiner for the final check and no ongoing monitoring or feedback of standards of this licence - something BALPA were campaigning for. The CAA seem to have been a bit rattled by the Unions anti-feeling and seem to be backtracking a bit and now saying they are not in full support of it. Could be interesting...