TAM A320 crash at Congonhas, Brazil
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It is an approach that requires concentration from the crew, certainly, but it's very nature means that pilots know that a very high level of precision is required from them, and so they are likely to be even more "on the ball" than usual.
A sad day indeed.
A sad day indeed.
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Early scenario very similar to AF at YYZ and WN at MDW except for the luck of those pax and crew. If this TAM aircraft was indeed attempting a go-around, then that may have added much more speed and energy to this accident. We will have to see if those reports of an attempted go-around are true.
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TAM A320 has a MLW of 64.500kg, and it is NOT unusual to land at CGH near that weight. I am not sure, but I think that there is no landing restriction on 35L / 17R even when wet (allowed weight is limited by MLW).
Passenger view of landing in CGH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUdmkHP0wsE
Pilot view...notice that the pilot vacates the runway at the last way out, after landing relatively short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ77m...elated&search=
Interesting one...B 737 landing at 17R...notice the "glide slope...glide slope" and the PAPI 4 red lights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjm90...elated&search=
Passenger view of landing in CGH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUdmkHP0wsE
Pilot view...notice that the pilot vacates the runway at the last way out, after landing relatively short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ77m...elated&search=
Interesting one...B 737 landing at 17R...notice the "glide slope...glide slope" and the PAPI 4 red lights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjm90...elated&search=
Re, "we must now think of possible mechanical problems...delays in spoiler deployment for example...delays in thrust reverser use...."
In Config FULL, neither spoiler deployment nor reverse thrust are available until the AIRGR switch is in the GROUND mode. This is not the case in Config 3. I suspect that given the runway length and contaminated runway conditions that this would likely have been a Config Full landing but we'll have to wait for the numbers.
Also, it will be of interest to know if the CAS was managed or selected. In the Lufthansa overrun accident in Poland, the speed was in the "Selected" mode and there was a slight tailwind if I recall correctly, (I believe this is not the case here given the METAR info). The above scenario (spoilers/reverse unavailable) did however play a role in the accident. I believe this was one reason Lufthansa went to Config 3 landings but that's only hearsay.
FYI, a go-around at/after a touchdown is a valid and approved Airbus maneuver so long as reverse has not been selected. CATII and III certification standards provide for a touchdown during any go-around maneuver.
In Config FULL, neither spoiler deployment nor reverse thrust are available until the AIRGR switch is in the GROUND mode. This is not the case in Config 3. I suspect that given the runway length and contaminated runway conditions that this would likely have been a Config Full landing but we'll have to wait for the numbers.
Also, it will be of interest to know if the CAS was managed or selected. In the Lufthansa overrun accident in Poland, the speed was in the "Selected" mode and there was a slight tailwind if I recall correctly, (I believe this is not the case here given the METAR info). The above scenario (spoilers/reverse unavailable) did however play a role in the accident. I believe this was one reason Lufthansa went to Config 3 landings but that's only hearsay.
FYI, a go-around at/after a touchdown is a valid and approved Airbus maneuver so long as reverse has not been selected. CATII and III certification standards provide for a touchdown during any go-around maneuver.
Last edited by PJ2; 18th Jul 2007 at 02:50.
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Conf FULL is mandatory at CGH (airline policy), and many times autobrake is not selected due to the dalay between touchdown and autobrake actuation...so manual "full" braking is more "popular" at CGH.
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config 3 for landing
Also, it will be of interest to know if the CAS was managed or selected. In the Lufthansa overrun accident in Poland, the speed was in the "Selected" mode and there was a slight tailwind if I recall correctly, (I believe this is not the case here given the METAR info). The above scenario (spoilers/reverse unavailable) did however play a role in the accident. I believe this was one reason Lufthansa went to Config 3 landings but that's only hearsay.
sorry but DLH did not "go for config 3 landings "
its up to the crew what flap setting is used and F Full is usually the standart setting...
cheers
lars
sorry but DLH did not "go for config 3 landings "
its up to the crew what flap setting is used and F Full is usually the standart setting...
cheers
lars
Last edited by warmkiter; 18th Jul 2007 at 04:09. Reason: re: to jp2 comment
Understand that it's up to the crew - always! 
In fact, Config 3 is increasingly the "standard" landing config setting, mainly due to reduced fuel flow, although there is some information about increased roll stability...
In fact, Config 3 is increasingly the "standard" landing config setting, mainly due to reduced fuel flow, although there is some information about increased roll stability...
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"on the ball"....well, they should be...but, the AA LIT accident involved fatigue (13+ hour CDD).
Fatigue causes degraded judgment/decision making abilities (similar to the affects of alcohol).
KC
Fatigue causes degraded judgment/decision making abilities (similar to the affects of alcohol).
KC
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'Many dead' in Brazil plane crash
Scores of people are feared dead after a passenger plane carrying 176 people crashed at Congonhas airport in Sao Paulo, Brazil, starting a major fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6903837.stm
The state governor said the chances of finding survivors were "practically nil", while a fire official said more may have been killed on the ground.
The TAM airlines Airbus A320 is thought to have slid off the end of the runway as it landed in very wet conditions.
Concerns had been raised about the safety of the runway during heavy rain.
There had been persistent, heavy rain in the two hours preceding the accident.
On Monday afternoon, a smaller plane skidded off the runway onto the nearby grass in similar conditions.
Major fire
TAM Express flight 3054 was carrying 170 passengers and six crew when it attempted to land at Congonhas airport in the heart of Sao Paulo.
The plane was travelling to the city from Porto Alegre in the south of the country.
After touching down on the airport's main runway at 1850 (2150 GMT), the passenger jet skidded before sliding across a busy road in a residential area.
It then struck a depot used by TAM for storing cargo and some fuel.
Brazilian television showed pictures of a major fire at the scene and the emergency services arriving in large numbers to deal with the aftermath of the accident.
An eyewitness, TAM employee Elias Rodrigues Jesus, said the plane had exploded after slamming into the depot.
"All of a sudden I heard a loud explosion, and the ground beneath my feet shook," he told the Associated Press.
"I looked up and I saw a huge ball of fire, and then I smelled the stench of kerosene and sulphur."
A doctor at Sao Paulo's mortuary said 30 badly charred bodies had been brought in.
Sao Paulo state Governor Jose Serra said: "I was told that the temperature inside the plane was 1,000 degrees [1,830 Fahrenheit], so the chances of there being any survivors are practically nil."
President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva declared three days of national morning for the victims of the crash.
Safety concerns
The BBC's Gary Duffy in Sao Paolo says the weather has been bad for much of the day and there has been concern for some time about safety at Congonhas during heavy rain.
In February, a judge briefly banned flights in and out of the airport, which is the busiest in Brazil
Pilots had complained that water was pooling on the surface of the landing strip, making braking difficult and occasionally causing planes to skid out of control.
Remedial work, including laying a new surface, has been carried out in recent months.
However, a much smaller plane skidded off the runway before stopping on grass in similar weather conditions on Monday. No-one was injured in the incident.
Air safety in Brazil has been a major issue since a crash last year when a passenger plane collided with an executive jet over the Amazon, our correspondent says.
Some 154 people died in that incident, which was, at the time, the worst air crash in the country's history.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6903837.stm
The state governor said the chances of finding survivors were "practically nil", while a fire official said more may have been killed on the ground.
The TAM airlines Airbus A320 is thought to have slid off the end of the runway as it landed in very wet conditions.
Concerns had been raised about the safety of the runway during heavy rain.
There had been persistent, heavy rain in the two hours preceding the accident.
On Monday afternoon, a smaller plane skidded off the runway onto the nearby grass in similar conditions.
Major fire
TAM Express flight 3054 was carrying 170 passengers and six crew when it attempted to land at Congonhas airport in the heart of Sao Paulo.
The plane was travelling to the city from Porto Alegre in the south of the country.
After touching down on the airport's main runway at 1850 (2150 GMT), the passenger jet skidded before sliding across a busy road in a residential area.
It then struck a depot used by TAM for storing cargo and some fuel.
Brazilian television showed pictures of a major fire at the scene and the emergency services arriving in large numbers to deal with the aftermath of the accident.
An eyewitness, TAM employee Elias Rodrigues Jesus, said the plane had exploded after slamming into the depot.
"All of a sudden I heard a loud explosion, and the ground beneath my feet shook," he told the Associated Press.
"I looked up and I saw a huge ball of fire, and then I smelled the stench of kerosene and sulphur."
A doctor at Sao Paulo's mortuary said 30 badly charred bodies had been brought in.
Sao Paulo state Governor Jose Serra said: "I was told that the temperature inside the plane was 1,000 degrees [1,830 Fahrenheit], so the chances of there being any survivors are practically nil."
President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva declared three days of national morning for the victims of the crash.
Safety concerns
The BBC's Gary Duffy in Sao Paolo says the weather has been bad for much of the day and there has been concern for some time about safety at Congonhas during heavy rain.
In February, a judge briefly banned flights in and out of the airport, which is the busiest in Brazil
Pilots had complained that water was pooling on the surface of the landing strip, making braking difficult and occasionally causing planes to skid out of control.
Remedial work, including laying a new surface, has been carried out in recent months.
However, a much smaller plane skidded off the runway before stopping on grass in similar weather conditions on Monday. No-one was injured in the incident.
Air safety in Brazil has been a major issue since a crash last year when a passenger plane collided with an executive jet over the Amazon, our correspondent says.
Some 154 people died in that incident, which was, at the time, the worst air crash in the country's history.
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According to dutch news website this was already the second attempt at landing.
"Tweede poging
Een correspondent van het Radio 1-journaal meldde dat het vliegtuig eerder al een poging deed om te landen, maar er toen voor koos in de lucht te blijven. De tweede poging werd de piloot fataal."
Second attempt
A correspondent of the radio-1 newsbroadcast reported that the aircraft had already attemoted a landing but elected to remain airborne. A second attempt proved fatal.
"Tweede poging
Een correspondent van het Radio 1-journaal meldde dat het vliegtuig eerder al een poging deed om te landen, maar er toen voor koos in de lucht te blijven. De tweede poging werd de piloot fataal."
Second attempt
A correspondent of the radio-1 newsbroadcast reported that the aircraft had already attemoted a landing but elected to remain airborne. A second attempt proved fatal.
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Just to be clear, the longer CGH runway seems a little longer than ABZ (?) We (BA) operate MLW 64.5T (I think?) A320s in there routinely with no special restrictions / rules, although naturally one takes more care / planning / briefing. In fact, I believe we have even tankered in there on occasion to MLW. We now have a F3 SOP for the 320/1 to save 2ps worth of fuel, but I doubt many would follow it at ABZ 
I have done a tough and go there due combination of gusty wind, managed speed + ATHR and incompetance
An A320 with 176 people on it by definition will be not far off MLW, unless they are all children without baggage...
The pure runway length I would therefore think not the major issue. The state of the runway surface is, of course, a different matter completely, and I find the A320 series quite easy to skid/slide on a slippery surface - i.e. antiskid hammering away and little retardation.
I have done a tough and go there due combination of gusty wind, managed speed + ATHR and incompetance
An A320 with 176 people on it by definition will be not far off MLW, unless they are all children without baggage...
The pure runway length I would therefore think not the major issue. The state of the runway surface is, of course, a different matter completely, and I find the A320 series quite easy to skid/slide on a slippery surface - i.e. antiskid hammering away and little retardation.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
With referenece to the Warsaw accident and Spoiler/Reverse. After this accident the air/ground logic was modified so that with one Main Landing Gear(MLG) compressed the spoilers would half deploy to assist in getting the other MLG down. Once this had occurred full spolier deployment would automatically happen. Additionally with one MLG compressed and REV selected, Spoilers will fully deploy. I think in the original Warsaw accident the aircraft travelled a considerable distance down the R/W with just one MLG compressed hence no spoiler.........
The fact this runway was ungrooved may have played a major part in this. If the crew realised the aircraft was aquaplaning (which would take some time for them to realise) and they then tried to go around it looks like they ran out of runway.
Bristol Airport in the UK had a lot of problems last winter due to a new surface waiting to "cure" before grooving. After a couple of incidents of aircraft sliding off the side (most) major operators refused to operate into the airport ...... it was grooved PDQ!
A4
The fact this runway was ungrooved may have played a major part in this. If the crew realised the aircraft was aquaplaning (which would take some time for them to realise) and they then tried to go around it looks like they ran out of runway.
Bristol Airport in the UK had a lot of problems last winter due to a new surface waiting to "cure" before grooving. After a couple of incidents of aircraft sliding off the side (most) major operators refused to operate into the airport ...... it was grooved PDQ!
A4
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A320 with 180 pax, Airbus OEW (normally too low) and some remaining fuel is ~60 tons, maximum MLW is 66 tons for several weight variants.
Landing Field Length requirement would be ~4000-4500ft for dry runway.
The severeness of the impact implies that they attempted a go-around or at least had some extraordinary issues (compare A310 crash/overrun in Russia some time ago).
Photos from Monsieur airliners.net
Here a got shot of the place. You can see the building with "TAM" written on the side.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1056400/L/
Here an overview to give an impression. Crash area is on the left side.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0634881/L/
Here another one with a better view of the steep end of runway 35L/17R.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0297560/L/
This looks like the place, but only the taxiway leading to it.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0018003/L/
Landing Field Length requirement would be ~4000-4500ft for dry runway.
The severeness of the impact implies that they attempted a go-around or at least had some extraordinary issues (compare A310 crash/overrun in Russia some time ago).
Photos from Monsieur airliners.net
Here a got shot of the place. You can see the building with "TAM" written on the side.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1056400/L/
Here an overview to give an impression. Crash area is on the left side.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0634881/L/
Here another one with a better view of the steep end of runway 35L/17R.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0297560/L/
This looks like the place, but only the taxiway leading to it.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0018003/L/
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
July 18 (Bloomberg) -- A Brazilian passenger plane crashed and burst into flames on landing at Sao Paulo's domestic airport late yesterday. At least 200 people may have been killed, in what would be the country's worst air disaster.
Survivors probably won't be found on the plane, which was carrying 176 people, Sao Paulo State Governor Jose Serra said at a news conference broadcast by Band News television. The plane, built by Airbus SAS and operated by TAM SA, the country's biggest airline, slid off the runway, crossed a highway and hit a gas station and a building. Twenty-five people were killed on the ground, Band reported.
"This could be the worst plane crash ever in Brazil,'' Amaryllis Romano, an airline analyst at Tendencias Consultoria in Sao Paulo, said. "I'm numb. It's something that you always feared could happen but never really thought would.''.........
The plane's fuselage came to a rest inside a three-story building and was engulfed in flames, making it impossible for rescue workers to reach it.
Workers retrieved 27 bodies from the plane and another 25 on the ground, Douglas Ferrari, a doctor who took part in the rescue effort, told Band News. As many as 100 people may have been working in the building at the time of the crash, he said.
Eight people have been rescued from the site and are being treated at local hospitals, according to a spokeswoman for Sao Paulo city public health department.......
Survivors probably won't be found on the plane, which was carrying 176 people, Sao Paulo State Governor Jose Serra said at a news conference broadcast by Band News television. The plane, built by Airbus SAS and operated by TAM SA, the country's biggest airline, slid off the runway, crossed a highway and hit a gas station and a building. Twenty-five people were killed on the ground, Band reported.
"This could be the worst plane crash ever in Brazil,'' Amaryllis Romano, an airline analyst at Tendencias Consultoria in Sao Paulo, said. "I'm numb. It's something that you always feared could happen but never really thought would.''.........
The plane's fuselage came to a rest inside a three-story building and was engulfed in flames, making it impossible for rescue workers to reach it.
Workers retrieved 27 bodies from the plane and another 25 on the ground, Douglas Ferrari, a doctor who took part in the rescue effort, told Band News. As many as 100 people may have been working in the building at the time of the crash, he said.
Eight people have been rescued from the site and are being treated at local hospitals, according to a spokeswoman for Sao Paulo city public health department.......
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