Telegraph article on "poisoned air"
Anybody have any 'facts' on these problems as of the a/c types listed one has 2 di fferent manufacturers engines available and the other 3 , cant believe the problem is there on all combinations ???? Or is it ?
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BVCU, The problem is known to exist across a wide range of aircraft types. The problem of contaminated bleed air can potentially exist on any aircraft in which the cabin air is supplied using bleed air.
Its interesting that you say 'I can't believe the problem is there on all combinations'. A lot of people have trouble believing that this problem exists at all, especially given that aviation is supposed to be tightly regulated for safety.
There are countless examples of contaminated air events - if you need convincing, simply start searching around on the internet. www.aerotoxic.org is a good place to start
PPD
Its interesting that you say 'I can't believe the problem is there on all combinations'. A lot of people have trouble believing that this problem exists at all, especially given that aviation is supposed to be tightly regulated for safety.
There are countless examples of contaminated air events - if you need convincing, simply start searching around on the internet. www.aerotoxic.org is a good place to start
PPD
Last edited by pilotpantsdown; 6th Jul 2007 at 10:23. Reason: web address corrected
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To bleed or not to bleed
Its a long time ago but my recall is that the Viscount, ah Dart, had compressors,leland type, which were engine driven and avoided engine bleed air but I suppose they might have been susceptible to contamination from whatever lubrication the compressors used, cant rember so maybe there was a problem after all
Having flown 737 and F100 following with interest whateverthe subject was
I know Mr Hoyt, good bloke
Having flown 737 and F100 following with interest whateverthe subject was
I know Mr Hoyt, good bloke
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More Cabin Crew Sick on the 146
I thought that Flybe had sorted out these Fume problems on the BAE 146 ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/h...nd/6932735.stm
http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article2836497.ece
A colleague of mine who works for Flybe told me of an incident in December 2004 where both the Pilots were badly incapacitated on a similar flight into BHD.
The First Officer was barely conscious and the Captain was euphoric.
I wonder how long before the luck runs out ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/h...nd/6932735.stm
http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/news/article2836497.ece
A colleague of mine who works for Flybe told me of an incident in December 2004 where both the Pilots were badly incapacitated on a similar flight into BHD.
The First Officer was barely conscious and the Captain was euphoric.
I wonder how long before the luck runs out ?
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"The First Officer was barely conscious and the Captain was euphoric"
Yep - I'd recognise that scenario! Just off HK - London slot with a Captain a family man and the First Officer knackered from over indulgence.
I jest - but surely somebody can identify fumes in the flightdeck or cabin.
Yep - I'd recognise that scenario! Just off HK - London slot with a Captain a family man and the First Officer knackered from over indulgence.
I jest - but surely somebody can identify fumes in the flightdeck or cabin.
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Flybe, non existent Duty of Care.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...xic-gas-p.html
In a statement, Flybe said: "Any incidents involving sickness experienced by cabin crew, flight crew or passengers are taken very seriously by the company, with appropriate medical support always provided."
Yeah rite! If they were that concerned then Flybe would send the crew to a medical facility that could actually detect the chemicals that they have been exposed to, rather than the local A&E which haven't a clue. But that would cost money and then they would be accountable once the level of exposure had been determined.
Convenient then to send them to the local A&E, where a Carboxyhaemoglobin test is administered hours after the event and therefore pretty irrelevant, as by that time all the readings will be pretty much back to normal again.
Passengers are "Not Informed", so how are they able to seek the appropriate medical advice?
In a statement, Flybe said: "Any incidents involving sickness experienced by cabin crew, flight crew or passengers are taken very seriously by the company, with appropriate medical support always provided."
Yeah rite! If they were that concerned then Flybe would send the crew to a medical facility that could actually detect the chemicals that they have been exposed to, rather than the local A&E which haven't a clue. But that would cost money and then they would be accountable once the level of exposure had been determined.
Convenient then to send them to the local A&E, where a Carboxyhaemoglobin test is administered hours after the event and therefore pretty irrelevant, as by that time all the readings will be pretty much back to normal again.
Passengers are "Not Informed", so how are they able to seek the appropriate medical advice?
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I was once onboard a 757 that suffered a fume event during an engine test on the ground (doors were closed and armed , so no way of exiting a/c).
I am fortunate in that i get a headache about once or twice a year , but the pain i experienced that day was pretty unreal.
I also went 'blank' in efffect, for the length of the engine run and probably 20-30 mins afterwards.
I phoned our occ health centre on reaching base , and was told in no uncertain terms that "there was no way any permanent damage would have been done"
I have flown on the 757 for 20 years now,and luckily we have so few these days i rarely go on it.
It would certainly appear that there is a reluctance by the industry to fully and completely address this matter and that is worrying for the many that work on these a/c types day in day out.
Is there supposed to be an (expensive) filter kit than can prevent this from happening ( i once heard ) ?
If we were reassured that there is a problem and that it can /will be fully rectified, it would make people sleep a little easier knowing that working onboard one of these planes could leave you with an uncertain future.............
I am fortunate in that i get a headache about once or twice a year , but the pain i experienced that day was pretty unreal.
I also went 'blank' in efffect, for the length of the engine run and probably 20-30 mins afterwards.
I phoned our occ health centre on reaching base , and was told in no uncertain terms that "there was no way any permanent damage would have been done"
I have flown on the 757 for 20 years now,and luckily we have so few these days i rarely go on it.
It would certainly appear that there is a reluctance by the industry to fully and completely address this matter and that is worrying for the many that work on these a/c types day in day out.
Is there supposed to be an (expensive) filter kit than can prevent this from happening ( i once heard ) ?
If we were reassured that there is a problem and that it can /will be fully rectified, it would make people sleep a little easier knowing that working onboard one of these planes could leave you with an uncertain future.............
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Does anyone really expect anything to happen quickly? First there will have to be admission that there is a problem. That will takes years of research going round in circles. The solution will be too catastrophic to profits that it will not happen for a long time.
Consider the debate about cosmic radiation. I heard that the conclusion, years ago, was that flying above 29,000' for more than 400hrs pa was a cumulative dangerous situation. Lufthansa's & Alitalia's unions had conducted raditaion tests in the cockpits years ago. The readings went off the scale and would not be allowed in ground based industries. If that is true, then what has ben done? Zilch. I heard that Lufthansa was considering screening the cockpits, but of course this would be unacceptable to pax, they being exposed. Imagine the cost of screening the whole a/c or flying below 29,000'? Unworkable, so lets ignore the problem.
Consider the known problem with FTL's throughout the world. Ground based crews have improvements in lifestyles worthy of 21st civilised society; airline crews have worsening of lifestyle to increase productivity and profits for the owners of airlnes. No discussion about the health hazzards.
So don't hold your breath about anyhting happening here. It took a longtime to convince the public & politicians that lead in auto fuel was causing health problems to those living beside major roads. The campaign did work, possibly because it was the whole public effected, and once it was a known fact the outcry if nothing was done would have been suicide for anyone in power. Could it also be that the solution was not so expensive and lenghty?
Consider the debate about cosmic radiation. I heard that the conclusion, years ago, was that flying above 29,000' for more than 400hrs pa was a cumulative dangerous situation. Lufthansa's & Alitalia's unions had conducted raditaion tests in the cockpits years ago. The readings went off the scale and would not be allowed in ground based industries. If that is true, then what has ben done? Zilch. I heard that Lufthansa was considering screening the cockpits, but of course this would be unacceptable to pax, they being exposed. Imagine the cost of screening the whole a/c or flying below 29,000'? Unworkable, so lets ignore the problem.
Consider the known problem with FTL's throughout the world. Ground based crews have improvements in lifestyles worthy of 21st civilised society; airline crews have worsening of lifestyle to increase productivity and profits for the owners of airlnes. No discussion about the health hazzards.
So don't hold your breath about anyhting happening here. It took a longtime to convince the public & politicians that lead in auto fuel was causing health problems to those living beside major roads. The campaign did work, possibly because it was the whole public effected, and once it was a known fact the outcry if nothing was done would have been suicide for anyone in power. Could it also be that the solution was not so expensive and lenghty?
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I went to a BALPA conference on contaminated cabin air about three years ago. Leaving aside whether the toxins should be there in the first place, there was some useful info on filters.
The point about filtering the air is that there is currently no practical 'barrier-type' filter which will work 100% without stopping air flow. There are absorbent filters that can be fitted to the sides of the ducts, but by definition they cannot filter everything.
With current technology the best chance we have is with the much-maligned air recirculation system. As well as improving humidity it does have effective filtration capable of removing SARS virus and other small toxins. Obviously the contaminants will already be in the cabin and some damage will already be done, but the recirculation filters should take it out pretty quickly. Unfortunately the minute recirculation is mentioned, the press is full of hysteria about airlines starving passengers of oxygen to save fuel.
For the future the 787 has bleedless engines, so somebody is worried about the problem (and the litigation). From the past, Dart engines had Rootes Blowers which provided air but could also be contaminated with oil.
The point about filtering the air is that there is currently no practical 'barrier-type' filter which will work 100% without stopping air flow. There are absorbent filters that can be fitted to the sides of the ducts, but by definition they cannot filter everything.
With current technology the best chance we have is with the much-maligned air recirculation system. As well as improving humidity it does have effective filtration capable of removing SARS virus and other small toxins. Obviously the contaminants will already be in the cabin and some damage will already be done, but the recirculation filters should take it out pretty quickly. Unfortunately the minute recirculation is mentioned, the press is full of hysteria about airlines starving passengers of oxygen to save fuel.
For the future the 787 has bleedless engines, so somebody is worried about the problem (and the litigation). From the past, Dart engines had Rootes Blowers which provided air but could also be contaminated with oil.
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...... and again!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6932735.stm
This appeared on the BBC NI news site a couple of days ago.
This appeared on the BBC NI news site a couple of days ago.
Last edited by jetfour; 8th Aug 2007 at 14:23.
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BBC You and Yours
I've treid several times to access the program you and yours, found the program about air contamination, but it looks like after a couple of minutes the progr. gets jammed?
Other programmes aren't anny problem at all. Any body else experiencing the same problems???
greetz
Other programmes aren't anny problem at all. Any body else experiencing the same problems???
greetz
