Beech 1900 Belly landing at Woodbourne (NZWB), New Zealand
Join Date: Feb 2005
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OT -
Just off the NW corner of NZWB is this Argosy -
Go to maps.google.com , enter -41.512253,173.8585 in the search window, switch to satellite view, and zoom in!
Just off the NW corner of NZWB is this Argosy -
Go to maps.google.com , enter -41.512253,173.8585 in the search window, switch to satellite view, and zoom in!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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no one plans to have a crash landing...but as prudent pilots we might all want to think about resources on the ground for a problem.
I am pleased with the safe outcome of this flight, but it is good to think about all factors.
I am pleased with the safe outcome of this flight, but it is good to think about all factors.
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the doctor in question indicated that the small town hospital ( level 2 ...whatever that means) would have been overwelmed(sp?)
an Eagle Air plane with 17 people on board
*All* hopsitals in the area ( remember .mil will have their own facilitys as well, and there will be a possibility of helicopter transfer to wellington) overwelmed by 17 casulties? don't make it laugh, rolling a bus produces more.
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I'm captain on this type since 8 years and I experienced over 3500 hours on UE and and UC. in 2002 we shooted a rabbit during take off course at approximatively 90 knots. A blade of the propeller as broken. the Raytheon pilot's check list say that during collision with ground, greater is the risk that propeller or portion of propeller separating from hub causing damage to the fuselage and physical harm to passengers. So if it is possible, a good idéa is to let the seat concerned empty during this type of landing. In case of 19 passengers no chance!!!!
have good flights
have good flights
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Wheels up landings
Well done to the crew - this post is for those who would have done it differently 
.
With alloy propellors, I was told by an engineering type that if the prop was feathered and stopped it would dig into the ground, causing a large amount of damage to the engine (let alone to the aircraft and pax) due to the inability of the prop to fold, whereas if the prop was in fine pitch and rotating slowly the blades would fold nicely - sometimes not even damaging the crankshaft in a piston engine. I have no experience with composite props - but I understand that carbon fibre shatters into a fine dust absorbing a huge amount of energy in the process.
I remember a lot of hangar talk about aircraft with 2 bladed props - some pilots said they would shut down the engines and feather the props on final and then use the starter motor to rotate them so the blades were horizontal
. I heard of one very serious accident when this was attempted and the pilot undershot and the aircaft ended up in a drainage ditch. 
As to the grass vs hard surfaces - an engineering type told me that grass can get into to the joins between aircraft skins and the pull the skin off resulting in far more damage to the structure underneath.
I fly amphib caravans which have a PT6. Sometimes on the water we will shut down in beta - and it takes a looooong time for the blades to stop. Whilst the gas generator is running there is oil pressure for the bearings in the reduction gear box, when the gas generator stops so does the oil.
I'm sure the manufacturer takes all factors into account when writing the manuals.
I am not into being a hero to try and save the insurance company a few $$$ on the repair. When someting goes wrong the primary consideration is the pax on board - as far as I am concerned the insurance company owns the aircraft when things first go wrong - well before I hit the ground. Mind you the best way to save the pax is to land the aircraft in 1 piece. Besides with a 1.9m$ aircraft it is cheaper for the insurance company if four pax lives a saved if you write off the aircraft to achieve it.
W
.With alloy propellors, I was told by an engineering type that if the prop was feathered and stopped it would dig into the ground, causing a large amount of damage to the engine (let alone to the aircraft and pax) due to the inability of the prop to fold, whereas if the prop was in fine pitch and rotating slowly the blades would fold nicely - sometimes not even damaging the crankshaft in a piston engine. I have no experience with composite props - but I understand that carbon fibre shatters into a fine dust absorbing a huge amount of energy in the process.
I remember a lot of hangar talk about aircraft with 2 bladed props - some pilots said they would shut down the engines and feather the props on final and then use the starter motor to rotate them so the blades were horizontal
. I heard of one very serious accident when this was attempted and the pilot undershot and the aircaft ended up in a drainage ditch. As to the grass vs hard surfaces - an engineering type told me that grass can get into to the joins between aircraft skins and the pull the skin off resulting in far more damage to the structure underneath.
I fly amphib caravans which have a PT6. Sometimes on the water we will shut down in beta - and it takes a looooong time for the blades to stop. Whilst the gas generator is running there is oil pressure for the bearings in the reduction gear box, when the gas generator stops so does the oil.
I'm sure the manufacturer takes all factors into account when writing the manuals.
I am not into being a hero to try and save the insurance company a few $$$ on the repair. When someting goes wrong the primary consideration is the pax on board - as far as I am concerned the insurance company owns the aircraft when things first go wrong - well before I hit the ground. Mind you the best way to save the pax is to land the aircraft in 1 piece. Besides with a 1.9m$ aircraft it is cheaper for the insurance company if four pax lives a saved if you write off the aircraft to achieve it.
W
Last edited by werbil; 23rd Jun 2007 at 01:52. Reason: spelling
Let's not go too far with the idea that carbon blades shatter and lessen the damage effects.
The idea of the design is that they can resist shattering just as well as any other blade in a bird strike and of course strong enough to resist bending or twisting under centifugal loading and high thrust power.
When these things break off under power they have a nasty habit of spearing through fuselages and even exiting out the other side.
The idea of the design is that they can resist shattering just as well as any other blade in a bird strike and of course strong enough to resist bending or twisting under centifugal loading and high thrust power.
When these things break off under power they have a nasty habit of spearing through fuselages and even exiting out the other side.
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The hollow steel propeller on the CV-580 causes a lot more damage than a composite prop. Here is one that went into overspeed during descent, came apart, and cut the fuselage in two.
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To be fair, the Convair was felled by the penetration of the blade and the yaw loads which came along with the loss of the prop. Just taking a tiny little issue with saying the blade "cut the fuselage in two..." Of course, the end result was the same...
Here's the NTSB report: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR68-AC.pdf
--Dave
Here's the NTSB report: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR68-AC.pdf
--Dave
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Dave, you're right, but the overspeed was inseperable from the yaw - it was the "stolen" airstream energy from the yaw that drive the prop into overspeed.
I once wrote a mini-thesis comparing this accident to this EMB-120 accident: remarkably similar initial single-point failures, with assumed "fail-safe" characteristics that had never been fully tested.
I once wrote a mini-thesis comparing this accident to this EMB-120 accident: remarkably similar initial single-point failures, with assumed "fail-safe" characteristics that had never been fully tested.
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Are the blades carbon composite? It's possible that the fragments were very light, and may not have sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate a window or fuselage skin.
James
James
Flying Inverted,
You have not helped with the facts, your facts regarding the choice of landing place are completely wrong.
The aircraft most definitely did not land on the grass, it landed on the tarmac.
From what I have heard your information regarding the cause is close to the truth. I'm sure if you check with your source of that information they will confirm my statement regarding the aircraft landing on the tarmac.
If readers read the other thread on this in D & G you will find that the landing was done in accordance with Raytheons recommended procedures.
You have not helped with the facts, your facts regarding the choice of landing place are completely wrong.
The aircraft DID land on the grass strip, that was one of the reasons it didn't land at Wellington
From what I have heard your information regarding the cause is close to the truth. I'm sure if you check with your source of that information they will confirm my statement regarding the aircraft landing on the tarmac.
If readers read the other thread on this in D & G you will find that the landing was done in accordance with Raytheons recommended procedures.
