COUNTDOWN at CATHAY.
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I can not believe people against the cathay crew they need support. The management should understand by now that that is the people in the airline that make the difference. The sacking of crew is going to work against the management. All the best guys.
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Thanks for your support people. By the way the senior F/O fired was the HKAOA Secretary.
Needless to say any fired union members will be supported by the AOA and no deal will signed until they are reinstated.
[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 06 July 2001).]
Needless to say any fired union members will be supported by the AOA and no deal will signed until they are reinstated.
[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 06 July 2001).]
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...and it won't be any surprise to see the non-HKAOA member appeal the decision and be re-appointed, however to make the sackings appear unbiased, CX needed to include him with the other two.
btw, you'll have to tell us all, later, how you organised "Utor" to join forces with you!
btw, you'll have to tell us all, later, how you organised "Utor" to join forces with you!
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Nicole---
Sorry to disapponit you with my opinions, but they are just that, my opinions, like it or lump it.
Never fired, always completed contracts and, have gotten along with nearly everyone in aviation/airline flying. Now I am in the process of hiring flight crew for our little operation, and you need not apply. Don't think you would fit in, and anyway probably are not qualified. We look for highly trained professionals, suspect you are...not.
As for the Cathay guys, they have an uphill battle, if the prevail then fine, but suspect that they will have to settle for second best, just like the Comair guys in the USA.
In short, I am entitlted to my opinion, just like you are to yours.
As for CRM, as long as it's done the company way, then no argument. Those that go off on a tangent will be steped on, big time. As I am responsible to the shareholders, it can be NO other way, period.
Sorry to disapponit you with my opinions, but they are just that, my opinions, like it or lump it.
Never fired, always completed contracts and, have gotten along with nearly everyone in aviation/airline flying. Now I am in the process of hiring flight crew for our little operation, and you need not apply. Don't think you would fit in, and anyway probably are not qualified. We look for highly trained professionals, suspect you are...not.
As for the Cathay guys, they have an uphill battle, if the prevail then fine, but suspect that they will have to settle for second best, just like the Comair guys in the USA.
In short, I am entitlted to my opinion, just like you are to yours.
As for CRM, as long as it's done the company way, then no argument. Those that go off on a tangent will be steped on, big time. As I am responsible to the shareholders, it can be NO other way, period.
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411A. Eight hours! I hardly expected a reply so soon, but then you obviously have far less important things to do than surfing on the Internet all day.
I apologise that my reply was not swifter, but to add 'colour' to my reply, I thought that I'd utilise my evening and learn a few of these UBB codes that give a bit more impact! to the posts.
Firstly, it appears that, from the regular replies you receive to your posts, I do not have the sole monopoly on the content of my 'opinions.' Personally, I would have taken the hint quite a while back and just removed myself from the playing field, observing the game from the stands. The fact that you don't do this means to me that you are either incredibly thick-skinned, stupid or just having a laugh at winding us all up. I suspect a combination of the first and last.
Your opinions do not upset me, I have no emotional view regarding them as, you very rightly say, you have every right to them. But as your posts consistently contain negative, provocative and malicious content, I thought that I'd take this opportnity to slap you on the wrist and send you to the back of the class. Your opinions merely prove to me that you are quite dogmatic in your views and would be an aloof, egotistical and opinionated kind of a guy to work for, if indeed you have that sort of responsibility. Certainly I have not read anything positive or objective from you in the months that I have been reading your aggresive, obviously tormented, rantings. I still can't fathom out what has gone wrong for you, why so damn bitter all the time?
As for taking a cheap shot at my profesionalism, I would not throw stones before you find out who your target is. Now this I do find very amusing! You would be very surprised to learn who I am and no, you may not apply for a job in my little operation and yes, I do have that kind of a role. It is so easy to hide behind the cloak of anonymity that this forum affords us but I really do not think it appropriate that I reveal my identity for obvious reasons.
In case you were wondering, I chose Nicole for no other reason than the fact that she was the attractive subject in an advert for the Renault Clio car; We had two at one stage, one for the UK and one at our holiday home. A car that we were quite happy with, so 'Nicole' it is. I'm not going to give too much information away though, you never know who is reading this...
As for applying to you for a job, please explain why a very happy, very well-paid, expatriate for one of the aforementioned companies would want to come and fly for your little operation. Are you having trouble finding the highly skilled professionals? You seem to have been recruiting for an awfully long time; the fact that you are recruiting is often mentioned in your posts. Terrible thing, the human ego. No place for that in the flightdeck.
I am quite happy flying around the world in extremely good equipment with great people and having fun at the same time. We have our 'moments' but overall it's a good team that we have. That's fairly unusual in this industry, isn't it?
Anyway, I am now wasting my time. I only replied out of sheer disgust at your awful manners (again!) and really do not have the time to continue corresponding with someone who has shown himself up, time and time again, to be both immature and incompetent at handling sensible debate.
Radioflyer. thank you for your vote of support, it certainly made me grin. Who is this guy anyway?
As for your profile, I share all of your interests, however I do fall short in two out of three of your requirements for a partner! Safe Flying!
Cathay Pilots. Good Luck with your efforts. Remember that the global airline industry desperately needs experienced and qualified crew, so I am sure that whatever action you take and the subsequent 'punishments' you will not be looking for work for too long. However, there is something that I would like to add.
Please, for the sake of the professional standing of the pilot body, by all means stick to your principles that have got you to this watershed, but remember that too often has a group of pilots adopted a stand that has only resulted in having egg placed firmly on their faces; that reflects on us all.
Keep the emotions in check, act professionally (you will gain respect throughout your action) and above all, keep it safe.
Apart from having a dig at 411A, what's my benefit from this post? It's simple. If you win, we all win. I may have a desk, but I'm still a pilot!
[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]
I apologise that my reply was not swifter, but to add 'colour' to my reply, I thought that I'd utilise my evening and learn a few of these UBB codes that give a bit more impact! to the posts.
Firstly, it appears that, from the regular replies you receive to your posts, I do not have the sole monopoly on the content of my 'opinions.' Personally, I would have taken the hint quite a while back and just removed myself from the playing field, observing the game from the stands. The fact that you don't do this means to me that you are either incredibly thick-skinned, stupid or just having a laugh at winding us all up. I suspect a combination of the first and last.
Your opinions do not upset me, I have no emotional view regarding them as, you very rightly say, you have every right to them. But as your posts consistently contain negative, provocative and malicious content, I thought that I'd take this opportnity to slap you on the wrist and send you to the back of the class. Your opinions merely prove to me that you are quite dogmatic in your views and would be an aloof, egotistical and opinionated kind of a guy to work for, if indeed you have that sort of responsibility. Certainly I have not read anything positive or objective from you in the months that I have been reading your aggresive, obviously tormented, rantings. I still can't fathom out what has gone wrong for you, why so damn bitter all the time?
As for taking a cheap shot at my profesionalism, I would not throw stones before you find out who your target is. Now this I do find very amusing! You would be very surprised to learn who I am and no, you may not apply for a job in my little operation and yes, I do have that kind of a role. It is so easy to hide behind the cloak of anonymity that this forum affords us but I really do not think it appropriate that I reveal my identity for obvious reasons.
In case you were wondering, I chose Nicole for no other reason than the fact that she was the attractive subject in an advert for the Renault Clio car; We had two at one stage, one for the UK and one at our holiday home. A car that we were quite happy with, so 'Nicole' it is. I'm not going to give too much information away though, you never know who is reading this...
As for applying to you for a job, please explain why a very happy, very well-paid, expatriate for one of the aforementioned companies would want to come and fly for your little operation. Are you having trouble finding the highly skilled professionals? You seem to have been recruiting for an awfully long time; the fact that you are recruiting is often mentioned in your posts. Terrible thing, the human ego. No place for that in the flightdeck.
I am quite happy flying around the world in extremely good equipment with great people and having fun at the same time. We have our 'moments' but overall it's a good team that we have. That's fairly unusual in this industry, isn't it?
Anyway, I am now wasting my time. I only replied out of sheer disgust at your awful manners (again!) and really do not have the time to continue corresponding with someone who has shown himself up, time and time again, to be both immature and incompetent at handling sensible debate.
Radioflyer. thank you for your vote of support, it certainly made me grin. Who is this guy anyway?
As for your profile, I share all of your interests, however I do fall short in two out of three of your requirements for a partner! Safe Flying!
Cathay Pilots. Good Luck with your efforts. Remember that the global airline industry desperately needs experienced and qualified crew, so I am sure that whatever action you take and the subsequent 'punishments' you will not be looking for work for too long. However, there is something that I would like to add.
Please, for the sake of the professional standing of the pilot body, by all means stick to your principles that have got you to this watershed, but remember that too often has a group of pilots adopted a stand that has only resulted in having egg placed firmly on their faces; that reflects on us all.
Keep the emotions in check, act professionally (you will gain respect throughout your action) and above all, keep it safe.
Apart from having a dig at 411A, what's my benefit from this post? It's simple. If you win, we all win. I may have a desk, but I'm still a pilot!
[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]
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wow, this is really beginning to go the whole distance isn't it. just had to throw a bit of grief towards 411a.....you need a good kicking behind some bike-shed and left to fester for a while.
cathay pacific....you know that the majority of pilots with any ability, typically the more westernised ones, are all behind you. solidarity, brothers, hang in there and force those buggers to re-address the fact that such a capable work force needs reward, direction and a roster that works for a few days at a time, at least.
cathay pacific....you know that the majority of pilots with any ability, typically the more westernised ones, are all behind you. solidarity, brothers, hang in there and force those buggers to re-address the fact that such a capable work force needs reward, direction and a roster that works for a few days at a time, at least.
Guest
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Nicole---
Think you should have retained your "little car" as I suspect it would match your understanding of the problems that affect aircarriers worldwide.
Of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, misplaced though they may be.
As for the CX guys, they have to bear the cross of prior misguided management. It is unlikely that they, as a collective group, appreciate this fact as they can only react to the "problems of the day". If I was a shareholder of Cathay, would have sold out a long time ago. The future for them looks dim indeed.
Still, if they keep chipping away, they may have limited success.
Think you should have retained your "little car" as I suspect it would match your understanding of the problems that affect aircarriers worldwide.
Of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, misplaced though they may be.
As for the CX guys, they have to bear the cross of prior misguided management. It is unlikely that they, as a collective group, appreciate this fact as they can only react to the "problems of the day". If I was a shareholder of Cathay, would have sold out a long time ago. The future for them looks dim indeed.
Still, if they keep chipping away, they may have limited success.
Guest
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You've had your rant, Nicole, now I suggest that for your own sake you do as everyone else has been doing and ignore the Sad Old Git. You must know by now that he is never happier than when he has succeeded in baiting someone into another pointless debate with him -- which is understandable, after all it fills in his hours until the nurse comes in with the medication.
On behalf of our guys and gals in the cockpit, thanks for the expressions of support, everyone. They'd thank you themselves, but very few of them come here these days ...
On behalf of our guys and gals in the cockpit, thanks for the expressions of support, everyone. They'd thank you themselves, but very few of them come here these days ...
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Very addictive this, isn't it!
Thanks chaps for your words of support. I certainly do not have the time to enter into conversation with this 'gentleman.' So I am taking the advice of Radioflyer and ignoring him. But I hope for the sake of his little outfit that either he is a total fraud and the position he holds is in his head or he is actually a very nice chap and great to wrok with, somehow I doubt it though.
Gotta go, work to do.
Thanks chaps for your words of support. I certainly do not have the time to enter into conversation with this 'gentleman.' So I am taking the advice of Radioflyer and ignoring him. But I hope for the sake of his little outfit that either he is a total fraud and the position he holds is in his head or he is actually a very nice chap and great to wrok with, somehow I doubt it though.
Gotta go, work to do.
Guest
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Something which would make Mr Tyler angry (and no doubt 411A) - proof that sometimes being other than passive recipients of managerial heavy-handedness may be worthwhile:
From the German Press two days ago:
--------------------------------------Business: Lufthansa pilots accept new contract, union says
The Associated Press
BERLIN (July 6, 2001 1:33 p.m. EDT) - After four months of negotiations and two costly strikes at Europe's second-largest airline, Lufthansa pilots have accepted a pay package that promises a big wage hike, the pilots' union said Friday.
Vereinigung Cockpit, which represents 80 percent of Lufthansa's 4,200 pilots, said 86 percent backed the accord in a postal ballot that began three weeks ago after negotiators reached a deal mediated by former German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher.
Rocking the boat in a country accustomed to moderate compromise between industry and unions, the pilots insisted they needed a big raise to put them on a par with their peers in other countries.
Including performance-related pay, the new contract offers flight captains a rise of almost 30 percent in the first year of the three-year deal.
To push its demands, pilots staged two 24-hour strikes in May, forcing the German flag carrier to cancel hundreds of flights and costing the company more than $23 million.
Already feeling a downturn in the world economy and restrictions on air traffic because of inadequate airport capacity, Lufthansa blamed the expensive package and damaging strikes for forcing it to issue a profit warning.
The company last month scrapped an earlier forecast of a profit of 1 billion euros ($840 million), saying profit should now come in between 700 million euros and 750 million euros ($590 million and $630 million).
Chief Executive Juergen Weber last month said Lufthansa might sue for damages of almost 150 million marks ($64 million) resulting from the strike.
Under the three-year agreement, pilots are guaranteed a 2.8 percent raise in the second year, plus an additional raise based on average pay settlements in other German industries and another boost based on company profits. The third year's salaries will be based only on average pay settlements and profits.
Before the hike, a starting Lufthansa pilot earned a base salary of about $50,000 a year, while a veteran could earn up to $140,000.
Lufthansa is the second-largest passenger airline in Europe behind British Airways and second only to FedEx in cargo delivery. It operates flights to 340 destinations in 90 countries.
Shares in Lufthansa were down about 0.4 percent Friday, following most German stocks lower in late trading in Frankfurt. The stock has dropped about 30 percent this year.
From the German Press two days ago:
--------------------------------------Business: Lufthansa pilots accept new contract, union says
The Associated Press
BERLIN (July 6, 2001 1:33 p.m. EDT) - After four months of negotiations and two costly strikes at Europe's second-largest airline, Lufthansa pilots have accepted a pay package that promises a big wage hike, the pilots' union said Friday.
Vereinigung Cockpit, which represents 80 percent of Lufthansa's 4,200 pilots, said 86 percent backed the accord in a postal ballot that began three weeks ago after negotiators reached a deal mediated by former German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher.
Rocking the boat in a country accustomed to moderate compromise between industry and unions, the pilots insisted they needed a big raise to put them on a par with their peers in other countries.
Including performance-related pay, the new contract offers flight captains a rise of almost 30 percent in the first year of the three-year deal.
To push its demands, pilots staged two 24-hour strikes in May, forcing the German flag carrier to cancel hundreds of flights and costing the company more than $23 million.
Already feeling a downturn in the world economy and restrictions on air traffic because of inadequate airport capacity, Lufthansa blamed the expensive package and damaging strikes for forcing it to issue a profit warning.
The company last month scrapped an earlier forecast of a profit of 1 billion euros ($840 million), saying profit should now come in between 700 million euros and 750 million euros ($590 million and $630 million).
Chief Executive Juergen Weber last month said Lufthansa might sue for damages of almost 150 million marks ($64 million) resulting from the strike.
Under the three-year agreement, pilots are guaranteed a 2.8 percent raise in the second year, plus an additional raise based on average pay settlements in other German industries and another boost based on company profits. The third year's salaries will be based only on average pay settlements and profits.
Before the hike, a starting Lufthansa pilot earned a base salary of about $50,000 a year, while a veteran could earn up to $140,000.
Lufthansa is the second-largest passenger airline in Europe behind British Airways and second only to FedEx in cargo delivery. It operates flights to 340 destinations in 90 countries.
Shares in Lufthansa were down about 0.4 percent Friday, following most German stocks lower in late trading in Frankfurt. The stock has dropped about 30 percent this year.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Would someone care to hazard how much Tony Tyler and the other henchman have cost Cathay to date, with the wet leasing of the 10 aircraft, accomodation, transport to and from the hotel to work, AND lost revenue as passengers now make alternative travel arrangements (to CX), simply because Mr Tyler and Co. have made a non-negotiable offer to the pilots' representative body?
Do they (Tyler and Co.) believe that they can continue to plunder Cathay's coffers indefinitely - or at least until the funds have dried up - in their ego-driven battle with the pilots.
For every day that CX management contiues this expensive, wasteful campaign to "teach the pilots a lesson", the value of Cathay's shares must depreciate, as the capital is whittled away.
There seems little doubt that the pilots' submissions could easily have been met (financially), and then some, and that Mr Tyler and his cohorts have another agenda for which they will squander the shareholders' assets to sate their appetite.
Another example of totally unaccountable management!!
Do they (Tyler and Co.) believe that they can continue to plunder Cathay's coffers indefinitely - or at least until the funds have dried up - in their ego-driven battle with the pilots.
For every day that CX management contiues this expensive, wasteful campaign to "teach the pilots a lesson", the value of Cathay's shares must depreciate, as the capital is whittled away.
There seems little doubt that the pilots' submissions could easily have been met (financially), and then some, and that Mr Tyler and his cohorts have another agenda for which they will squander the shareholders' assets to sate their appetite.
Another example of totally unaccountable management!!
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I hate to think how much money Cathay Pacific has lost as a result of Tyler & Co's blinkered crusade to beat the pilots at any cost. To the cost of this current dispute, add all the lost productivity and wasted management time caused by disputes between management and various employee groups over the last few years - it could easily come in at well over HK$1 billion. Have they actually gained anything by their actions? I doubt it.
What is it about Cathay management? Why must they continually dictate terms to their various staff groups instead of negotiating fair, mutually agreeable contracts? Why are they afraid of engaging their staff in the running of the company? Cathay Pacific desperately needs to expand in order to ensure continued dominance of its HK hub - surely that goal would be so much easier to achieve if all staff were on side and committed to the long term success of the company.
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Spineless ]
What is it about Cathay management? Why must they continually dictate terms to their various staff groups instead of negotiating fair, mutually agreeable contracts? Why are they afraid of engaging their staff in the running of the company? Cathay Pacific desperately needs to expand in order to ensure continued dominance of its HK hub - surely that goal would be so much easier to achieve if all staff were on side and committed to the long term success of the company.
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Spineless ]
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From The South China Morning Post:
Cathay Pacific calls for booking freeze
Analysts believe Cathay Pacific Airways could be preparing to call its pilots' bluff on their industrial action, having informed key travel agent partners to stop selling seats on international flights until at least mid-month.
The airline's move to stop taking new bookings could be a precursor to escalated hostilities in the dispute between the two sides, the analysts said.
A Cathay spokesman said a notice was sent to travel agents earlier this week saying the carrier would no longer accept new bookings for flights to Europe, Canada and the United States. This would be for two weeks from the date of the notice.
A Cathay spokesman said the "triggering point of the decision was Typhoon Utor".
"Our flights were already pretty full for the next two weeks and we imagined that the typhoon would already cause much disruption to our schedule," she said.
"As a precautionary measure, then, we decided to stop taking new bookings on long-haul flights for two weeks until mid-July."
The move, according to the analysts, could be a reaction to fears the pilots might decide to escalate their week-long limited industrial action into a full-scale strike, or could even indicate a possibility that the airline was contemplating a lock-out of its pilots.
Uzo Obi, an analyst at CLSA Global Emerging Markets, said the situation was "worrying" since it seemed neither side was willing to back down from its demands.
Ms Obi said Cathay sources had said the airline had decided to stop selling seats as a preventative measure to minimise the number of disappointed passengers should a strike occur.
"Listening to the amount of vitriol from both sides, it is amazing still how far apart the two sides are," she said.
Even if they were able to come to a speedy resolution, the amount of bad feeling generated could mean a difficult working environment for a long time to come, Ms Obi said.
Cathay called a special meeting on Thursday to update investment analysts about the dispute. An analyst who attended the meeting said airline officials made it clear the company would not cave in to the union's demands, and that it would not return to the bargaining table until the pilots ended their work-to-rule.
"The meeting implied that the pilots had upped the ante with their actions and that Cathay was now prepared to let the situation escalate," said the analyst.
"But it was also made quite clear that management was not going to give in to the pilots' demands."
However, Cathay officials stopped short of saying they expected a full-scale strike, the analyst said.
So far there is no indication that Cathay plans to cancel flights in response to the pilots' industrial action.
The airline said increasing numbers of pilots were reporting sick, indicating that the work-to-rule could be escalating into a "sick-out".
The carrier has leased 10 aircraft on a temporary basis - including one Boeing 777-200, one Boeing 747-400 and two Airbus A340s - in case they are needed either to ease passenger bottlenecks due to the typhoon or, in a worst-case scenario, the pilots begin a full-scale strike.
Analysts said it would be difficult to estimate the cost of an escalated battle between the airline and its pilots.
Andrew Tan, a Singapore-based analyst with ABN Amro, said the two-week strike in 1999 by Cathay pilots cost the airline about HK$35 million per day.
"It will definitely have an impact - directly or indirectly. But 1999 was full-scale action and we have not got that," he said.
The unknown factor is the cost of the 10 wet-leased aircraft and the length of the charters.
Cathay Pacific calls for booking freeze
Analysts believe Cathay Pacific Airways could be preparing to call its pilots' bluff on their industrial action, having informed key travel agent partners to stop selling seats on international flights until at least mid-month.
The airline's move to stop taking new bookings could be a precursor to escalated hostilities in the dispute between the two sides, the analysts said.
A Cathay spokesman said a notice was sent to travel agents earlier this week saying the carrier would no longer accept new bookings for flights to Europe, Canada and the United States. This would be for two weeks from the date of the notice.
A Cathay spokesman said the "triggering point of the decision was Typhoon Utor".
"Our flights were already pretty full for the next two weeks and we imagined that the typhoon would already cause much disruption to our schedule," she said.
"As a precautionary measure, then, we decided to stop taking new bookings on long-haul flights for two weeks until mid-July."
The move, according to the analysts, could be a reaction to fears the pilots might decide to escalate their week-long limited industrial action into a full-scale strike, or could even indicate a possibility that the airline was contemplating a lock-out of its pilots.
Uzo Obi, an analyst at CLSA Global Emerging Markets, said the situation was "worrying" since it seemed neither side was willing to back down from its demands.
Ms Obi said Cathay sources had said the airline had decided to stop selling seats as a preventative measure to minimise the number of disappointed passengers should a strike occur.
"Listening to the amount of vitriol from both sides, it is amazing still how far apart the two sides are," she said.
Even if they were able to come to a speedy resolution, the amount of bad feeling generated could mean a difficult working environment for a long time to come, Ms Obi said.
Cathay called a special meeting on Thursday to update investment analysts about the dispute. An analyst who attended the meeting said airline officials made it clear the company would not cave in to the union's demands, and that it would not return to the bargaining table until the pilots ended their work-to-rule.
"The meeting implied that the pilots had upped the ante with their actions and that Cathay was now prepared to let the situation escalate," said the analyst.
"But it was also made quite clear that management was not going to give in to the pilots' demands."
However, Cathay officials stopped short of saying they expected a full-scale strike, the analyst said.
So far there is no indication that Cathay plans to cancel flights in response to the pilots' industrial action.
The airline said increasing numbers of pilots were reporting sick, indicating that the work-to-rule could be escalating into a "sick-out".
The carrier has leased 10 aircraft on a temporary basis - including one Boeing 777-200, one Boeing 747-400 and two Airbus A340s - in case they are needed either to ease passenger bottlenecks due to the typhoon or, in a worst-case scenario, the pilots begin a full-scale strike.
Analysts said it would be difficult to estimate the cost of an escalated battle between the airline and its pilots.
Andrew Tan, a Singapore-based analyst with ABN Amro, said the two-week strike in 1999 by Cathay pilots cost the airline about HK$35 million per day.
"It will definitely have an impact - directly or indirectly. But 1999 was full-scale action and we have not got that," he said.
The unknown factor is the cost of the 10 wet-leased aircraft and the length of the charters.