Liverpool runway incursion?
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Liverpool runway incursion?
I Was on the 11.05 easyjet flight EZY604 Belfast to Liverpool yesterday morning (06/06).
Pilot executed a touch, short landing run, and go.
During go-around the captain explained that there was a light aircraft still on the runway.
Anyone have any more details of what actually happened?
Pilot executed a touch, short landing run, and go.
During go-around the captain explained that there was a light aircraft still on the runway.
Anyone have any more details of what actually happened?
Last edited by Barnstorm; 6th Jun 2007 at 23:39.
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Might have been late vacating, or got lost looking for the turnoff. Happens quite a lot. Last year I stopped off at the spotter's park in MAN on a lovely sunny day for sniff of avgas and indulge the anorak in me and in the space of an hour there were 2 go-arounds due late vacating. Nothing unusual.
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As a light aircraft driver, let me give you one possible scenario...
Light aircraft approaching at 75mph, airliner approaching at 140 mph, catching up.
ATC are good at judging these things, so they work out that it should be okay, but advise airliner to expect late landing clearance.
For whatever reason, light aircraft occupies runway for longer than ATC assumed and they say "go around" to airliner, very late.
Airline crew respond per SOPs and wheels momentarily touch during go around manoeuvre.
What pax don't see is that airline chief pilot 9and accountant) are not best pleased with cost of go around
One reason why light aircraft pilots should always show consideration when operating in a mixed traffic environment and keep runway occupancy to a minimum.
Light aircraft approaching at 75mph, airliner approaching at 140 mph, catching up.
ATC are good at judging these things, so they work out that it should be okay, but advise airliner to expect late landing clearance.
For whatever reason, light aircraft occupies runway for longer than ATC assumed and they say "go around" to airliner, very late.
Airline crew respond per SOPs and wheels momentarily touch during go around manoeuvre.
What pax don't see is that airline chief pilot 9and accountant) are not best pleased with cost of go around
One reason why light aircraft pilots should always show consideration when operating in a mixed traffic environment and keep runway occupancy to a minimum.
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For whatever reason, light aircraft occupies runway for longer than ATC assumed and they say "go around" to airliner, very late.
Airline crew respond per SOPs and wheels momentarily touch during go around manoeuvre
Airline crew respond per SOPs and wheels momentarily touch during go around manoeuvre
As hinted above, something does not add up about this story... an airliner touch and go with 1 on would imply to me something was wrong / someone got something wrong
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Touching the wheels down on the runway during the go around would be more likely in low viz operations with lights not seen etc. Also much more likely with the heavys which clearly Easyjet don't have.
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This all sounds very unlikely ...
Most airline SOPs allow descent to 100/200 RA with traffic in sight, but no lower. Even if they had accepted a 'land after clearance', the idea of initiating a GA after a 'short landing run' is ridiculous.
On touchdown, the ground spoliers deploy automatically (Boeing or Airbus), and the SOP (on the Boeing at least) is to deploy thrust reversers (to idle) as the main wheels touch ...
The Boeing manual (and again I'm certain that Airbus will be the same) states very clearly that a GA SHOULD NOT be attempted once reverse thrust has been selected.
If things became so critical that the crew initiated a GA after and 'short landing run', then we should see this one investigated by the AAIB.
Most airline SOPs allow descent to 100/200 RA with traffic in sight, but no lower. Even if they had accepted a 'land after clearance', the idea of initiating a GA after a 'short landing run' is ridiculous.
On touchdown, the ground spoliers deploy automatically (Boeing or Airbus), and the SOP (on the Boeing at least) is to deploy thrust reversers (to idle) as the main wheels touch ...
The Boeing manual (and again I'm certain that Airbus will be the same) states very clearly that a GA SHOULD NOT be attempted once reverse thrust has been selected.
If things became so critical that the crew initiated a GA after and 'short landing run', then we should see this one investigated by the AAIB.
ATC don't give "land after" unless there is enough room for the following aircraft to land without the first one vacating. I wonder whether land after clearances are even used at LPL? Perhaps a controller will clarify?
LVLCHG: I wouldn't say we never give land after clearances at Liverpool. My experience is that some pilots refuse to accept them, so that is maybe why they seem to be rare. We give them all the time to GA, and I must say that a lot of airline go arounds are due to their getting too close to no. 1 when on a visual approach.
And by the way, aren't you supposed to report TCAS RA's to ATC? If you get them all the time, we should be swamped with reports, but we're not.
And by the way, aren't you supposed to report TCAS RA's to ATC? If you get them all the time, we should be swamped with reports, but we're not.
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ATC initiated go around, maybe? If a light aircraft turns off the runway then stops for post landing checks before fully crossing the holding point, it constitutes an infringement hence late go around instruction. Remember a jet won't react instantly.
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I would suggest that few airliner crews would leave a go-around to so late that they touched down whilst "awaiting landing clearance".
Fair enough, you know your business and I'm an amateur.
BTW, fyi I was pax on a flight last year where a narrow body jet airliner touched down/went around in CAVOK conditions, so its not impossible, even if unusual.
Fair enough, you know your business and I'm an amateur.
BTW, fyi I was pax on a flight last year where a narrow body jet airliner touched down/went around in CAVOK conditions, so its not impossible, even if unusual.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 7th Jun 2007 at 12:02.
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I was based in LPL and I do remember LPL ATC giving 'land after' clearances maybe they have stopped it? But I did get them, I vividly remember a certain airline trickling off the end of 27 onto Charlie.
However, I would seriously doubt a crew would touch down with a land after clearance knowing the runway was blocked and then attempt a baulked landing. LPL ATC were on the ball when I was there and I'm sure they would have given the Ezy cres a heads up so the situation did not devlop that far.
Possibly a long float? Could have been a tailwind if it was 09 you were landing on coming from BFS?
MK
However, I would seriously doubt a crew would touch down with a land after clearance knowing the runway was blocked and then attempt a baulked landing. LPL ATC were on the ball when I was there and I'm sure they would have given the Ezy cres a heads up so the situation did not devlop that far.
Possibly a long float? Could have been a tailwind if it was 09 you were landing on coming from BFS?
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LVLCHG you do seem to have a problem accepting the rights of others to exist. If you dont like mixing with the majority of airspace users (i.e. GA) then go away and do something else. MOST pilots, CAT pilots AND GA pilots, get along quite well within the existing rules and regulations.
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No, LPL still use "Land after..."-clearances. Got one about a month ago after a Falcon 900 - we had reduced to minimum approach speed at 4NM, but that didn't really allow room for the Falcon to be down to taxi-speed around E and then rolling at a leisurely pace to D. He vacated at D - we were off at E 
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Any idea on the GA a/c involved?
LPL certainly do give "land after" clearances, I have received them in the past - quite frequently when it is busy with GA movements for example on a Sat morning.
Possibly a long float? Could have been a tailwind if it was 09 you were landing on coming from BFS?
Nah, easterly wind all week.
146
LPL certainly do give "land after" clearances, I have received them in the past - quite frequently when it is busy with GA movements for example on a Sat morning.
Possibly a long float? Could have been a tailwind if it was 09 you were landing on coming from BFS?
Nah, easterly wind all week.
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Lvlchg
So you get RA'S of light aircraft do you?
I'm a frequent visitor to lpl and I haven't seen on my TCAS height info of the light aircraft at lpl ( ie no mode c) therefore no RA possible.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm a frequent visitor to lpl and I haven't seen on my TCAS height info of the light aircraft at lpl ( ie no mode c) therefore no RA possible.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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With all the WIP at lpl on the taxiways, go arounds are becoming the norm, I have seen at least one a day all week (from the jets) and more than i can remember with the vfr traffic.
land afters are given at lpl, I had one on tuesday and have heard plenty more.
as for a t+g in a a320 its seems strange, the only thing i can think of is a single engine bod did not back track the runway as per instructed ( have seen that this week as well, ac onto the runway at golf told to leave at echo, but turns round and tries to TO)
yesterday night they were using runway 27, with the wind sock showing a westly wind at about 10kts if I remember rightly.
As for getting RA's all the time! I refuse to believe it, RVR do alot of flying from lpl (40-50 movements a day at a guess) and only ONE of there light singles a/c has mode C.
land afters are given at lpl, I had one on tuesday and have heard plenty more.
as for a t+g in a a320 its seems strange, the only thing i can think of is a single engine bod did not back track the runway as per instructed ( have seen that this week as well, ac onto the runway at golf told to leave at echo, but turns round and tries to TO)
Nah, easterly wind all week
As for getting RA's all the time! I refuse to believe it, RVR do alot of flying from lpl (40-50 movements a day at a guess) and only ONE of there light singles a/c has mode C.