T4 Shambles - 21 May 1400
Have the bean counters quantified the cost of taxing aircraft from T5 up to 27L & R, (how many metres? or carbon footprints?) and what happens when all the BA aircraft leaving T5 for 09R departures, the only "operational" departure runway - will this not cause another bottleneck? 
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And who parked the swan on 423 when I arrived this morning eh?? Congratulations to 'Seagull' for being far braver than our ground guys in shooing it away 
That was another first for the delay onto stand for this particular aviator....
That was another first for the delay onto stand for this particular aviator....
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Hi Huys as one who is at the helm of Airside Operations at LHR ona daily basis here it is from my point of view.
BA are causing us a major Headache. As everyone else has mentioned all other airlines seem to get their act together apart from BA.
We have to bail out BA time and time again simply because dispatchers are not in time to put the SEG on. We get requests from ATC all the time to park aircraft and indeed thee have been so many recently flow rates have been put on because the taxi ways are blocked.
This has been going on for approx 5 years and even though BA have promised to act nothing gets done. The customer service we provide for other airlines is now going down hill because all the leader vehicles are doing is rushing around after BA and helping out ATC and not being available to other airlines when theyre aircraft actually need parking because the parking aids are u/s or airbridge U/S.
I know ATC have been logging these events and we also are and the faxes are going to BA senior management. probably to end up in the bin. figures have been over 30 on afew occasions !! and that is just Operations logged flights. ATC will have more because some aircraft are parked by the time the marshaller gets there.
Regarding the stand entry guidance being left on , it has been discussed and quite rightly refused by the BAA & CAA for the obvious safety implications and recent incidents that involved aircrat hitting peices of equipment. Mainly left on stand by yes, youve guessed it the worlds favourite. And yes it does sometimes involve medium sized aircraft on B747 size stands.
Also Stand Entry Guidance is now not the normal AGNIS/PAPA with one switch of a button they are far more sophisticated and require input of aircraft type so can therefore not be left on.
Discussions are once again in place for charging of marshalling service after all why should we pay for the service twice. The installing and cost of SEG and the poor marshaller !!
ATC keep up the hard work, see you Tuesday !!
BA are causing us a major Headache. As everyone else has mentioned all other airlines seem to get their act together apart from BA.
We have to bail out BA time and time again simply because dispatchers are not in time to put the SEG on. We get requests from ATC all the time to park aircraft and indeed thee have been so many recently flow rates have been put on because the taxi ways are blocked.
This has been going on for approx 5 years and even though BA have promised to act nothing gets done. The customer service we provide for other airlines is now going down hill because all the leader vehicles are doing is rushing around after BA and helping out ATC and not being available to other airlines when theyre aircraft actually need parking because the parking aids are u/s or airbridge U/S.
I know ATC have been logging these events and we also are and the faxes are going to BA senior management. probably to end up in the bin. figures have been over 30 on afew occasions !! and that is just Operations logged flights. ATC will have more because some aircraft are parked by the time the marshaller gets there.
Regarding the stand entry guidance being left on , it has been discussed and quite rightly refused by the BAA & CAA for the obvious safety implications and recent incidents that involved aircrat hitting peices of equipment. Mainly left on stand by yes, youve guessed it the worlds favourite. And yes it does sometimes involve medium sized aircraft on B747 size stands.
Also Stand Entry Guidance is now not the normal AGNIS/PAPA with one switch of a button they are far more sophisticated and require input of aircraft type so can therefore not be left on.
Discussions are once again in place for charging of marshalling service after all why should we pay for the service twice. The installing and cost of SEG and the poor marshaller !!
ATC keep up the hard work, see you Tuesday !!
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This is somewhere that shoey1976 could help, either himself or by getting another BBC crew to go in and film the chaos caused by excessive cutbacks. I'm sure it would help explain to a lot of people why they get to wait so long after landing. If it's really that bad I would have thought that BAA would actively assist some camera crews to take relevant footage.
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Southern Duel,
I know where you are coming from, and accept much of what you say. But (and there's always a but!) from memory the vast majority of the stands on T4 are not type-related. Normally it's just the standard flourescent tube for stop guidance with green/red (and painted line) to keep straight.
I know where you are coming from, and accept much of what you say. But (and there's always a but!) from memory the vast majority of the stands on T4 are not type-related. Normally it's just the standard flourescent tube for stop guidance with green/red (and painted line) to keep straight.
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Yep that is correct for the time being.
There is a plan to have safegate rolled out across the patch. LGW are doing the same
T5 will have it and there are stands in T3 & T2 that already have it installed.
Actually T4 have slightly improved over the last couple of years regarding dispachers apart from arrivals on the old whiskey stands. The problem in T4 at the moment is lack of Tow crews in the mornings . It is T1 that is the major Problem
There is a plan to have safegate rolled out across the patch. LGW are doing the same
T5 will have it and there are stands in T3 & T2 that already have it installed.
Actually T4 have slightly improved over the last couple of years regarding dispachers apart from arrivals on the old whiskey stands. The problem in T4 at the moment is lack of Tow crews in the mornings . It is T1 that is the major Problem
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T1 complete shambles all afternoon, very few parked under their own steam well done to the Leaders 
but as SD says it is not your job and I now only get a leader called out to help someone park if an airline other than BA is getting delayed. Outbounds not ready when they get to the holding point. If an ATCO is appearing to ask every BA when they arrive at the holding point to report ready that is me, unsurprisingly not one BA aircraft was ready on reaching today despite some decent taxi distances.
On days off now and I can avoid the shambles that is British Airways operations at Heathrow.
but as SD says it is not your job and I now only get a leader called out to help someone park if an airline other than BA is getting delayed. Outbounds not ready when they get to the holding point. If an ATCO is appearing to ask every BA when they arrive at the holding point to report ready that is me, unsurprisingly not one BA aircraft was ready on reaching today despite some decent taxi distances. On days off now and I can avoid the shambles that is British Airways operations at Heathrow.
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Hi GT3
Good job i was not in yesterday then !!!!!!
Interesting that there has not been many comments on these postings by "The Worlds Favourite" Perhaps they are all red faced.
Actually i can just see this scenario happening. Just imagine delays throughout the day caused by BA causing flow restrictions to be introduced due to the taxiways being clogged up. It gets worse and worse into the evening and as a result other airlines are being affected. It comes to 11:30pm Local time and we cannot afford to let every non BA airline get airborne due to the night noise restrictions so we refuse a few aircraft. The Sxxx will def hit the fan then.
Wonder if BA would pick up the bill for the delays & hotel accom etc for the poor pax
Good job i was not in yesterday then !!!!!!
Interesting that there has not been many comments on these postings by "The Worlds Favourite" Perhaps they are all red faced.
Actually i can just see this scenario happening. Just imagine delays throughout the day caused by BA causing flow restrictions to be introduced due to the taxiways being clogged up. It gets worse and worse into the evening and as a result other airlines are being affected. It comes to 11:30pm Local time and we cannot afford to let every non BA airline get airborne due to the night noise restrictions so we refuse a few aircraft. The Sxxx will def hit the fan then.
Wonder if BA would pick up the bill for the delays & hotel accom etc for the poor pax
the lunatic fringe
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Interesting that there has not been many comments on these postings by "The Worlds Favourite" Perhaps they are all red faced.
More than that, there are plenty of posts on this thread by BA crew.
Nothing to do with the airport operators selling more slots than the infrastructure can realistically cope with then?
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Pretty much agreeing with above; LHR works because of the skill of ATCOs despite BA management bonus building savings.
Attracted as I am to denying BAW clearance beyond LAM etc until they have a stand I see the subsequent diversions would be a nightmare so how about sending us to those new T5 taxyways until BA resource the terminals properly?
Attracted as I am to denying BAW clearance beyond LAM etc until they have a stand I see the subsequent diversions would be a nightmare so how about sending us to those new T5 taxyways until BA resource the terminals properly?
"Nothing to do with the airport operators selling more slots than the infrastructure can realistically cope with then?"
Answer - No!!
Answer - No!!
Slots are allocated by ACL (which is airline-owned) for most large airports in UK, and transferred between airlines by mutual agreement and large sums of cash, in a very "grey" market.
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Strimmer
Great idea in principle but you are merely placing more work on the shoulders of ATC and crews as they have to spend more time navigating their way around the airfield which will always be difficult as, from the 09R extension, it against the prevailing traffic flows.
There is an extremely simple solution to this issue - that is to employ more TRMs and have them around when the aircraft come in. BA's own schedule should come as no surprise to them.
P7
Great idea in principle but you are merely placing more work on the shoulders of ATC and crews as they have to spend more time navigating their way around the airfield which will always be difficult as, from the 09R extension, it against the prevailing traffic flows.
There is an extremely simple solution to this issue - that is to employ more TRMs and have them around when the aircraft come in. BA's own schedule should come as no surprise to them.
P7
And that's one of the many reasons why I will NEVER travel with ba - particularly from Thiefrow.
Today I flew LH to BHX. From touchdown to leaving the car park took 35 minutes. It'd probably take that long from touchdown to stand at LHR - and, of course, there would be several orbits of Lambourn or wherever preceding the landing and subsequent taxying farce.
Why on earth does anyone with any other choice still use LHR? It's an utter shambles.
Today I flew LH to BHX. From touchdown to leaving the car park took 35 minutes. It'd probably take that long from touchdown to stand at LHR - and, of course, there would be several orbits of Lambourn or wherever preceding the landing and subsequent taxying farce.
Why on earth does anyone with any other choice still use LHR? It's an utter shambles.
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Preparing for incoming ....
As I type this I'm strapping on my tin helmet and hiding under the stairs cupboard in anticipation of the flak I'll get .... but .... I'm genuinely interested about this "not being ready on reaching the threshold" bit. I've only been flying with BA for 4 months so don't have reams of data going back years but in four months I haven't had one occasion of not being ready when reaching the threshold. No dispatchers etc etc ahhh, that's a different story! Can anyone truely in the know please confirm or deny? (an ATCO perhaps) ... because if it is true that most BA flights are not ready on reaching and I have NEVER experienced that then I must be truely blessed and am off to put my lottery numbers on before my good luck runs out...
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itsonlyme,
It does seem to vary. I can recall a day not too long ago when I had BA a/c at N1, S1N, S1S, N2E and N2W and two others who were all waiting for figures.
Sometimes you might not have a problem, a lot of times the delay at the holding point is upwards of ten to fifteen minutes, which often 'hides' this.
A lot of us worry what will happen when you're all coming out of T5 for 09R and have a 100m taxi! There's already talk of taking BA a/c north out of T5, then clockwise around E and to the back of the queue, giving you all a chance to be ready when you get to the hold.
Of course, another issue is that we do get the odd one who either accepts a line up, or marshalling instruction and then says 'errr, we're not ready' thus stitching up others behind. I believe that the AIP EGLL section still states that if you're not going to be ready on reaching, you should tell us. Technically we shouldn't have to ask.
It does seem to vary. I can recall a day not too long ago when I had BA a/c at N1, S1N, S1S, N2E and N2W and two others who were all waiting for figures.
Sometimes you might not have a problem, a lot of times the delay at the holding point is upwards of ten to fifteen minutes, which often 'hides' this.
A lot of us worry what will happen when you're all coming out of T5 for 09R and have a 100m taxi! There's already talk of taking BA a/c north out of T5, then clockwise around E and to the back of the queue, giving you all a chance to be ready when you get to the hold.
Of course, another issue is that we do get the odd one who either accepts a line up, or marshalling instruction and then says 'errr, we're not ready' thus stitching up others behind. I believe that the AIP EGLL section still states that if you're not going to be ready on reaching, you should tell us. Technically we shouldn't have to ask.
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Gonzo
I think you are refering to the following from the AIP:
"EGLL AD 2.20 – LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS
e Departures – Minimum Runway Occupancy Time
i On receipt of line-up clearance pilots should ensure, commensurate with safety and standard operating procedures, that they are able to
taxi into the correct position at the hold and line up on the runway as soon as the preceding aircraft has commenced its take-off roll.
iv Pilots not able to comply with these requirements should notify ATC as soon as possible once transferred to Heathrow Tower Departures
Frequency."
We can get in to a bit of a "catch 22" since we are only supposed to "monitor" the AIR DEPs frequency and often the first call from the controller is a line-up clearance. This problem is further compounded as you rightly point out, because often we haven't got the figures when we change to the TWR frequency but we do have them by the time we get to the runway. It just depends where we are in the departure queue. Information we don't always have any more because conditional clearances have been restricted!
I'm not making excuses - just trying to provide a bit of background. (Though, I've a feeling you know all this already!)
G W-H
I think you are refering to the following from the AIP:
"EGLL AD 2.20 – LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS
e Departures – Minimum Runway Occupancy Time
i On receipt of line-up clearance pilots should ensure, commensurate with safety and standard operating procedures, that they are able to
taxi into the correct position at the hold and line up on the runway as soon as the preceding aircraft has commenced its take-off roll.
iv Pilots not able to comply with these requirements should notify ATC as soon as possible once transferred to Heathrow Tower Departures
Frequency."
We can get in to a bit of a "catch 22" since we are only supposed to "monitor" the AIR DEPs frequency and often the first call from the controller is a line-up clearance. This problem is further compounded as you rightly point out, because often we haven't got the figures when we change to the TWR frequency but we do have them by the time we get to the runway. It just depends where we are in the departure queue. Information we don't always have any more because conditional clearances have been restricted!
I'm not making excuses - just trying to provide a bit of background. (Though, I've a feeling you know all this already!)
G W-H