Thomson A/C In flight shutdown
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Engine Grills
Engine Grills are not fitted because they cause too much drag and loss of efficiency in the intake. They can also ice. At worst, they could detach and cause more damage than birds. In general, the incidence of damaging birdstrikes is so low, and the engines capable enough of surviving ingestion, that no grill is necessary. The only exception, I believe, is the F117 Stealth Fighter, which has them for Low Observability - a different kind of trade-off
ATC Chatter
Too much chatter from ATC, when crew are probably pretty busy. Why offer a 'change to Approach or stay with me as you like' from the Tower; if they can stay with the Tower, keep quiet.
Too much chatter from ATC, when crew are probably pretty busy. Why offer a 'change to Approach or stay with me as you like' from the Tower; if they can stay with the Tower, keep quiet.
I've heard similar and in some cases the crew simply didn't respond as they worked their side of the problem.
To my knowledge the tower didn't demand a response from the crew in this case, until the crew were ready and willing to engage the frequency.
Chocks Away!
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Gehenna,
The recording of the RT you heard on Youtube was an hour's worth of flight condensed into nine minutes. It's bound to appear as too much chatter in that case. I notice the pilot saying "just to reiterate" a few times - I expect it was just the nerves.
I expect that if I was in a difficult situation, I'd find some comfort in the fact that ATC were talking to me.
Too much chatter from ATC, when crew are probably pretty busy. Why offer a 'change to Approach or stay with me as you like' from the Tower; if they can stay with the Tower, keep quiet.
I expect that if I was in a difficult situation, I'd find some comfort in the fact that ATC were talking to me.
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gehenna - in an emergency when ATC ask questions they don't expect a reply unless its an executive instruction, we understand the workload in the cockpit is huge and know that no reply means too busy to talk. They offered a change of frequency or stay with me as in some situations crew are too busy to make the change at the time of asking, so its an "I'd like you to go to approach as they're better to handle you right now (ie they have radar) but if you want to stay with me for the time then thats ok."
I think that both crew and ATC worked excellently and that there isn't much to pick out as "learning points", well done to all involved.
I think that both crew and ATC worked excellently and that there isn't much to pick out as "learning points", well done to all involved.
Gehenna
I am speaking from the experience with post mayday calls (CVR recordings etc.)
With respect, from your comments you do not sound like professional aircrew. If ATC speak to you, they do expect a reply
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Was this entire event conducted on the 'tower' freq? If so, the occasional interjections by atc using 'mayday Thompson', offering whatever help was available, kept the rest of any traffic on the freq. silent.
I couldn't find anything to debrief on this event (I'm such a hero) except to stop the a/c on the runway, perhaps, because of the extent of the engine damage and the reported FOD (thank God for kevlar); I thought it was the type of scenario I try and obtain from my crews in the sim.
The authorities that be were contemplating de-emphasizing V1 cuts in training because they are so rare, but here is a real-life one. I always thought the V1 cut was a mind-game, practised endlessly to teach the crew to stay calm and follow procedures (unless something else happens to require the crew to use its collective brain to save themselves without SOPs!)
4/4 or S
I couldn't find anything to debrief on this event (I'm such a hero) except to stop the a/c on the runway, perhaps, because of the extent of the engine damage and the reported FOD (thank God for kevlar); I thought it was the type of scenario I try and obtain from my crews in the sim.
The authorities that be were contemplating de-emphasizing V1 cuts in training because they are so rare, but here is a real-life one. I always thought the V1 cut was a mind-game, practised endlessly to teach the crew to stay calm and follow procedures (unless something else happens to require the crew to use its collective brain to save themselves without SOPs!)
4/4 or S
I had a useful trip in the sim recently. Engine failed (N1 seized) at about 50 kts on a full power T/O. Heck of a big swing and, of course, the thrust levers still try to advance to T/O thrust but your hands MAY not have gone onto the T/Ls if matey boy is still adjusting the thrust setting.
Interesting one, that.
Interesting one, that.
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Just a quick question relating to the landing. From the first vid on P1 it looks like the reversers were deployed on the rollout. Is that normal practice for a single engine arrival on the 75? I would have expected brakes only due to assymetric effects.
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MC
Quite normal. On a long runway like 06R at MAN I doubt they used much more than reverse idle, but the swing from a small amount of reverse would be comfortably controlled by rudder input.
Quite normal. On a long runway like 06R at MAN I doubt they used much more than reverse idle, but the swing from a small amount of reverse would be comfortably controlled by rudder input.
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A great job from a really professional airline/crew - 2 things to discuss.
1) Making the mayday call before even the gear had retracted
2) apparently, as reported, staying airborne for 45 mins before landing.
1 engine means land now- over weight - who cares?
A good job, just 2 points to kick around.
1) Making the mayday call before even the gear had retracted
2) apparently, as reported, staying airborne for 45 mins before landing.
1 engine means land now- over weight - who cares?
A good job, just 2 points to kick around.
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EFATO just after rotate - def a Mayday call if time permits to alert ATC and aircraft in proximity (prob not on 121.5)
Scenarios
1. a/c tries to land ahead on runway, poss overun, injuries & runway closed
2. climb established on 1 engine, assess options
a. go around & land o/w, poss u/c failure, injuries etc
b. remaining engine nominal, no fire in other, controls responsive, climb to safe alt, cruise to max land wt keeping alternates optional
(One working engine can keep a/c in air but I wouldn't risk continuing to Alicante)
If option b then approach freq would provide best option vs tower
Prof opinions welcome but I doubt the AAIB will be critical of the pilots
Job well done!
Scenarios
1. a/c tries to land ahead on runway, poss overun, injuries & runway closed
2. climb established on 1 engine, assess options
a. go around & land o/w, poss u/c failure, injuries etc
b. remaining engine nominal, no fire in other, controls responsive, climb to safe alt, cruise to max land wt keeping alternates optional
(One working engine can keep a/c in air but I wouldn't risk continuing to Alicante)
If option b then approach freq would provide best option vs tower
Prof opinions welcome but I doubt the AAIB will be critical of the pilots
Job well done!
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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For heavens sake! Would the amateurs who are trying to impress us with their limited knowledge of jet aircraft flying and EFATO handling please go off to the spotters section where their ramblings may be better appreciated by their peers.
Nov71, what is the point you are trying to make? Those of us that do fly these a/c for a living know what to do in these situations. Your limited knowledge that you have exposed in your post above only serves to irritate the rest of us because it is so full of amateurish twaddle!
For the rest of the Microsoft Flight Simulator brigades who are once again ruining these threads with their uninformed rubbish, go and play in the spotters forum. Just before you go, here is what we, the professionals, do for an EFATO:
1: Aviate
2: Navigate
3: Communicate
That's it. In that order. However, I'll elaborate slightly so that you can impress your mates over in Spotters Corner.
As soon as it is noticed that one of the engines has lost some power we apply rudder to maintain directional control and then we apply aileron to keep the wings level. That's the 'Aviate' bit.
Because runway 06L at MAN is pointing towards high ground there will be an emergency turn procedure. If the a/c was on a Listo SID, which turns the a/c to the south, they probably did an emergency turn to the north west. Usually something like at 1.0 DME turn left onto a track of 300 deg until intercepting a radial (084 deg?) into the WAL VOR. That's the 'Navigate' bit.
Once the a/c is in control and navigating away from the ground and any high ground then they can declare a "Mayday". That's the 'Communicate' bit.
Only when we're climbing safely away from the ground do we even do anything about the failed or damaged engine itself. Once the gear has been selected up the PF (Pilot Flying) will ask the PNF (Pilot Not Flying) to restate the failure. The PF will fly the a/c, handle the RT and call for the appropriate checklists.
The PNF will carry out the Boeing 'Engine Fire, Damage or Separation' recall items which are to close the thrust lever, switch off the fuel control switch and pull the appropriate fire handle. If there was a fire indication then the fire handle would be rotated as necessary. At accelleration altitude the a/c will be cleaned up and then leveled off above Minimum Safety Altitude. The QRH checklist will then be actioned and then the after take-off check list. Once all that has been done the crew will assess the situation and make the necessary decisions.
There will be none of this "try to land ahead" or worry about the landing gear collapsing due to an overweight landing. The a/c is designed to land at max take-off weight. All it would need is an overweight landing inspection. Also, with an engine failed on a twin engined a/c they wouldn't consder coing on to Alicante or wherever so why even mention it?
So, please, can we keep it to 'professional opinions' on here and leave the cringy amateur stuff to the amateurs forums. Keeps me and the other grumpy old airline pilots happy.
Nov71, what is the point you are trying to make? Those of us that do fly these a/c for a living know what to do in these situations. Your limited knowledge that you have exposed in your post above only serves to irritate the rest of us because it is so full of amateurish twaddle!
For the rest of the Microsoft Flight Simulator brigades who are once again ruining these threads with their uninformed rubbish, go and play in the spotters forum. Just before you go, here is what we, the professionals, do for an EFATO:
1: Aviate
2: Navigate
3: Communicate
That's it. In that order. However, I'll elaborate slightly so that you can impress your mates over in Spotters Corner.
As soon as it is noticed that one of the engines has lost some power we apply rudder to maintain directional control and then we apply aileron to keep the wings level. That's the 'Aviate' bit.
Because runway 06L at MAN is pointing towards high ground there will be an emergency turn procedure. If the a/c was on a Listo SID, which turns the a/c to the south, they probably did an emergency turn to the north west. Usually something like at 1.0 DME turn left onto a track of 300 deg until intercepting a radial (084 deg?) into the WAL VOR. That's the 'Navigate' bit.
Once the a/c is in control and navigating away from the ground and any high ground then they can declare a "Mayday". That's the 'Communicate' bit.
Only when we're climbing safely away from the ground do we even do anything about the failed or damaged engine itself. Once the gear has been selected up the PF (Pilot Flying) will ask the PNF (Pilot Not Flying) to restate the failure. The PF will fly the a/c, handle the RT and call for the appropriate checklists.
The PNF will carry out the Boeing 'Engine Fire, Damage or Separation' recall items which are to close the thrust lever, switch off the fuel control switch and pull the appropriate fire handle. If there was a fire indication then the fire handle would be rotated as necessary. At accelleration altitude the a/c will be cleaned up and then leveled off above Minimum Safety Altitude. The QRH checklist will then be actioned and then the after take-off check list. Once all that has been done the crew will assess the situation and make the necessary decisions.
There will be none of this "try to land ahead" or worry about the landing gear collapsing due to an overweight landing. The a/c is designed to land at max take-off weight. All it would need is an overweight landing inspection. Also, with an engine failed on a twin engined a/c they wouldn't consder coing on to Alicante or wherever so why even mention it?
So, please, can we keep it to 'professional opinions' on here and leave the cringy amateur stuff to the amateurs forums. Keeps me and the other grumpy old airline pilots happy.
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Sounds like the previous post has drawn a line under this one finally. I cant believe how long this thread has gone on for given a slightly non standard day out in the office. I am expecting the thread to be here in 10 years time. Bird strike .. shut down .. divert .. boys did a good job ..end of story .. seems like a standard TFly LPC/OPC check ..
I had an almost identical experience at Manchester on August 19th 1985, also involving a B757-200 (GBLVH) on a MAN-CFU-MAN. As we rotated on Rwy 24 a flock of herring gulls rose up from the grass and five were ingested into the right engine. There were no bangs, but the vibration readings went off the clock and flight deck filled with a strong fishy smell. We shut down the engine, declared an emergency and held at Barton to burn off fuel, when the cabin crew served breakfast. Total flight time was one hour. Six or seven fan blades were found to be buckled. As there was no other damage to the RB211 the engineers fitted a new fan assembly and the flight departed that evening. Three days later our incident was overshadowed by the British Airtours 737 disaster. I remember a municipal rubbish tip close to the airport came in for a considerable amount of flack for attracting seagulls!
Thompson Fly 757 Bird Strike
I have only just managed to view the ten minute video clip of this incident , but I suggest we can all learn a lot from it,. What would we have done if we were on the Flight Deck, or in the Tower?
- An incident that could possibly have escalated, had it not been dealt with in such a calm & professional manner by all concerned. Very well done to the Crew, Manchester ATC & all those involved.
- In particular, the clear calm & consise transfer of information between the aircraft, ATC & the Emergency services. Not too much, just what was needed at the time, spoken in a calm & distinct manner so that no repetition was necessary.
- As an exercise on `Just How An Emergency Incident Shold Be Handled` if possible, I would suggest this video clip should become part of most companies training programme.
- Again, very well done to all concerned.
- An incident that could possibly have escalated, had it not been dealt with in such a calm & professional manner by all concerned. Very well done to the Crew, Manchester ATC & all those involved.
- In particular, the clear calm & consise transfer of information between the aircraft, ATC & the Emergency services. Not too much, just what was needed at the time, spoken in a calm & distinct manner so that no repetition was necessary.
- As an exercise on `Just How An Emergency Incident Shold Be Handled` if possible, I would suggest this video clip should become part of most companies training programme.
- Again, very well done to all concerned.
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If anyone is interested the Engine was changed and the aircaft went back into service the next day. Two interesting points however:
1. There appeared to be no physical damage to the engine itself. Only a 25degree overheat which dictated an engine change.
2. The Airfield Ops Officer responsible for bird scareing was made redundant (I believe) a short time before the incident.
1. There appeared to be no physical damage to the engine itself. Only a 25degree overheat which dictated an engine change.
2. The Airfield Ops Officer responsible for bird scareing was made redundant (I believe) a short time before the incident.