Busting FTL limits - Emirates Airline's latest trick!
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The rumbling on the street is that it's coming...all trends point to it. Swiss cheese, error chain, call it whatever you like...guys are just...plain...tired.
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Dan & Paris,
What about those of us who chose to live many miles from base and commute, arriving before flights, in many cases long-haul? This has always been something that has been ignored, both by the airlines and the regulatory authorities but I think it's just a matter of time before an accident happens that reveals that the pilot left home (perhaps in another country) several hours before his report time, with none of the travel time being taken into account before his 14 hour duty day.
What about those of us who chose to live many miles from base and commute, arriving before flights, in many cases long-haul? This has always been something that has been ignored, both by the airlines and the regulatory authorities but I think it's just a matter of time before an accident happens that reveals that the pilot left home (perhaps in another country) several hours before his report time, with none of the travel time being taken into account before his 14 hour duty day.
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Mujan,
Surely that is your choice to live a distance away from your base and have to commute. If your airline is anything like mine then they expect you to present yourself for duty sufficiently rested to perform the subsequent duty. If your commute is really so far that this new measure will affect you in such a way perhaps you should travel earlier to allow a period of rest before duty... or .... move closer. I get quite sick of the guys at work who have chosen to commute and then moan about how hard done by they are.
Surely that is your choice to live a distance away from your base and have to commute. If your airline is anything like mine then they expect you to present yourself for duty sufficiently rested to perform the subsequent duty. If your commute is really so far that this new measure will affect you in such a way perhaps you should travel earlier to allow a period of rest before duty... or .... move closer. I get quite sick of the guys at work who have chosen to commute and then moan about how hard done by they are.
A long haul commute immediately prior to reporting is a choice. Not a good one, but a choice. I know one guy who used to commute out on the very same aircraft he flew back to his home airport. He was sacked when found out, so in some cases the company does take notice.
I used to have a 3 hour drive to report for a long haul job. That was my limit. But when you have no choice such as in the case of the MK guys who died at Halifax, that's a very different matter!
I used to have a 3 hour drive to report for a long haul job. That was my limit. But when you have no choice such as in the case of the MK guys who died at Halifax, that's a very different matter!
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When a friend of mine knew he was going to be leaving Emirates he had to round down his hours and hope that the UK airline he was applying to didn't do their sums too closely when they examined his logbook!
First time I have ever heard of a pilot saying he had done less hours than he had actually done.
First time I have ever heard of a pilot saying he had done less hours than he had actually done.
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Oh, I think you'll find that that quite a few pilots (outside of Europe) have a similar experience. Without pointing any specific fingers, I have friends who have flown in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia who have way under-reported hours on their logbooks.
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AH,
you appear to have misread my post or not read all of it. I am not one of those that choose to live a long way away. But there are many of us that do, in all parts of the world, and the regulators and airlines turn a blind eye to it.
you appear to have misread my post or not read all of it. I am not one of those that choose to live a long way away. But there are many of us that do, in all parts of the world, and the regulators and airlines turn a blind eye to it.
Please don't give the powers that be an excuse to legislate yet more of our lives. What next? We all have to live next to the airport ( Is Hounslow - West, or Hayes close enough
) and forced to take drug induced sleep to ensure we are rested before that 2000 Local report? Perhaps pilots will not allowed to have children/husbands/wives/domestic minor crises because they may interfere with preflight rest.
In my experience Shorthaul commuting (by air) is less stressful than battling traffic on the UK Major roads and maybe the longhaul commuters may be better acclimatised than the locals for the late night reports and departures, though I'm not advocating jump straight off the longhaul commute and into the Flight Deck.
) and forced to take drug induced sleep to ensure we are rested before that 2000 Local report? Perhaps pilots will not allowed to have children/husbands/wives/domestic minor crises because they may interfere with preflight rest.In my experience Shorthaul commuting (by air) is less stressful than battling traffic on the UK Major roads and maybe the longhaul commuters may be better acclimatised than the locals for the late night reports and departures, though I'm not advocating jump straight off the longhaul commute and into the Flight Deck.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Surely the maximum number of hours flown in a month is not for Emirates to decide but the local CAA.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.
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Surely the maximum number of hours flown in a month is not for Emirates to decide but the local CAA.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.
Could someone confirm that this instruction has come from local CAA in a legal rule change; if not you could be breaking the law.
They have tried to tell us that they are being "forced" to do this by the GCAA and that they "really don't want to". Of course, when asked why they don't simply apply a more conservative approach and state that they will only roster crews to the 100 hours in 28 days, (including augmenting operations) they are silent.
... start a union, they can't sack all of you.
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Sour grapes...?
Could it be that many (or at least some) of the comments here with negative waves are actually from folks who have approached, and been rejected from, EK?
Perish the thought.
Now, when you do apply for a job, any job, you are asking for work.
Is it not then reasonable to expect the airline, when they hire the pilots, to expect those pilots to actually adhere to the terms and conditions, even if one of those conditions means sitting/resting in suitable crew rest areas?
Augmented/double crews have been used for years, so get used to it.
However, if on the other hand, some already at EK, and don't like the 'factoring', have a clear path...quit, and find other employment.
Been done before...
Perish the thought.
Now, when you do apply for a job, any job, you are asking for work.
Is it not then reasonable to expect the airline, when they hire the pilots, to expect those pilots to actually adhere to the terms and conditions, even if one of those conditions means sitting/resting in suitable crew rest areas?
Augmented/double crews have been used for years, so get used to it.
However, if on the other hand, some already at EK, and don't like the 'factoring', have a clear path...quit, and find other employment.
Been done before...
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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the management here has interpreted the regulation that deals with the logging of time as an augmenting crewmember to also apply towards the FTL's (ie. time spent in the bunk cannot count towards total time for the purposes of attaining a license). Never mind that when they tried this before, the GCAA intervened.
Ask to the the GCAA approval for this change in the law.
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Is it not then reasonable to expect the airline, when they hire the pilots, to expect those pilots to actually adhere to the terms and conditions, even if one of those conditions means sitting/resting in suitable crew rest areas?
"Just quit". Ah, the catchall solution. Why didn't I think of it.
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Surely it is up to the individual not to exceed the mandatory legal limit set down by the local GCAA. Unless the company can show that the law has been changed it would have ramifications both for the individual and the company concerned.
er, where did FTL come from?
Anyone know who/when invented the FTL numbers in the first place? Where is the research that says that any one number - 900, is better/worse than another - especially with current fatigue-inducing rosters??
The military in the UK used to research this sort of stuff, but I have no idea whether or not they still do.
I'm not after the law, more the bright spark/team/cttee who invented 900 and the research behind it.
(UK law below)
The reference for UK law is the Air Navigation Order, Section 1 Part VI, Paragraph 74 1 (b)
(1) Subject to paragraph 2, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the UK if at the beginining of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times:
(b) during the period of twelve months expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.
It then goes on to talk about exceptions in paragraph 2.
The military in the UK used to research this sort of stuff, but I have no idea whether or not they still do.
I'm not after the law, more the bright spark/team/cttee who invented 900 and the research behind it.
(UK law below)
The reference for UK law is the Air Navigation Order, Section 1 Part VI, Paragraph 74 1 (b)
(1) Subject to paragraph 2, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the UK if at the beginining of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times:
(b) during the period of twelve months expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 hours.
It then goes on to talk about exceptions in paragraph 2.
Last edited by Ancient Observer; 15th May 2007 at 14:04.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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shall not