BA delay Delhi flight. Crew fatigue
de minimus non curat lex
It would be interesting to know what the Scheduling Agreement has to say about HOTAC arrangements, and why clearly there was non compliance of it.
Penny wise, pound foolish ??
Penny wise, pound foolish ??
AFAIK the crews only recently moved to the hotel in question. There had been some issues with hotel renovations and noise from a nearby railway Station but I understand these problems had been resolved. However the noise from the cricket match was an unforseen, or do I mean "unforheard", problem.
Well done to the Captain for making the wise decision. It looks like the blame game has now started, no doubt everyone from Press to the suits trying to pin the delay on the crew.
Well done to the Captain for making the wise decision. It looks like the blame game has now started, no doubt everyone from Press to the suits trying to pin the delay on the crew.
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“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
Two hundred twenty-five passengers of British Airways to London were stranded at the Indira Gandhi International Airport for more than 12 hours on Sunday as the entire crew of the flight BA 143 allegedly indulged in a boozing binge and when it was time to fly the aircraft, they were not in a position to fly.
The flight was scheduled to leave Delhi at 2.30 am yesterday but did not take off after the pilot, Captain William along with his entire crew refused to fly. The crew reasoned that they did not have enough rest due to some disturbance in the hotel.
British Airways spokesperson Radhika Raikhy, however, refuted the allegations. “The safety of passengers is our prime focus and as the entire crew had not slept well because of disturbances in the hotel, the flight did not take off.”
Radhika added that the crew did not have to through medical tests as they had no doubts about their claims.
All the passengers, who had boarded the flight, were offloaded after the midnight drama, leaving many of them fuming.
The airline could not make alternative arrangements for the passengers and the flight was delayed till 2.30 pm on Sunday.
Radhika said that one crew that comes with the flight flies it on return journey. “As the entire crew could not take rest, the flight had to be delayed.”
http://www.mid-day.com/news/nation/2...ril/155545.htm
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
Two hundred twenty-five passengers of British Airways to London were stranded at the Indira Gandhi International Airport for more than 12 hours on Sunday as the entire crew of the flight BA 143 allegedly indulged in a boozing binge and when it was time to fly the aircraft, they were not in a position to fly.
The flight was scheduled to leave Delhi at 2.30 am yesterday but did not take off after the pilot, Captain William along with his entire crew refused to fly. The crew reasoned that they did not have enough rest due to some disturbance in the hotel.
British Airways spokesperson Radhika Raikhy, however, refuted the allegations. “The safety of passengers is our prime focus and as the entire crew had not slept well because of disturbances in the hotel, the flight did not take off.”
Radhika added that the crew did not have to through medical tests as they had no doubts about their claims.
All the passengers, who had boarded the flight, were offloaded after the midnight drama, leaving many of them fuming.
The airline could not make alternative arrangements for the passengers and the flight was delayed till 2.30 pm on Sunday.
Radhika said that one crew that comes with the flight flies it on return journey. “As the entire crew could not take rest, the flight had to be delayed.”
http://www.mid-day.com/news/nation/2...ril/155545.htm
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Aircrew Hotels Only
My company makes the contarcts without asking to the people who stays in those hotels and we are suffering of the smae problems as well.Allthough i am not fliying on the Er routes making a lot of nightstops all around the country(TURKEY) and some outside stations.Hotel managements think that they can treat crews like as they wish and they have no concern about their rests and comfort.
Noisy hotels hosting big wedding parties,meetings,even aquaparks full of children shouting and screaming on summer season and etc.
Complaining about those issues mostly ignored by the company management and crews are dealing with these problems by their own and starting the duty with their nerves stretched.
Sometimes the location of the hotels are so isolated form the town and when the crews have some time to spend they stuck in the depressing hotel rooms.
We,the flyers must have hotels designed by the needs of the aircrews and accepsts no guests other than flyers.These needs are 7/24 breakfast and dining cafes and restr. laundry services and quite,clean rooms.
Hope we get that in the near future
Noisy hotels hosting big wedding parties,meetings,even aquaparks full of children shouting and screaming on summer season and etc.
Complaining about those issues mostly ignored by the company management and crews are dealing with these problems by their own and starting the duty with their nerves stretched.
Sometimes the location of the hotels are so isolated form the town and when the crews have some time to spend they stuck in the depressing hotel rooms.
We,the flyers must have hotels designed by the needs of the aircrews and accepsts no guests other than flyers.These needs are 7/24 breakfast and dining cafes and restr. laundry services and quite,clean rooms.
Hope we get that in the near future
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“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
Q. Is there a main railway lime and station next to the hotel?
Q. Was there a large cricket match with a loud PA system in close proximity to the hotel on the day in question?
Q. Was there loud music being played late into the evening?
I suspect the answer to all the above is YES
Q. Does the hotel have any evidence (signed receipts etc) on crew drinking alcohol in bars within the prohibited period?
I suspect the answer to the above is NO.
You decide the likely cause and who is being economical with the truth and trying to deflect attention. I know where my money sits......
Well done Captain W for making the difficult but correct decision, something more of us should do more often imho.
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“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances...."
Controversial, moi?
BALPA and BA's hotel procurement people have an excellent working relationship. BA are as keen as the pilots that hotel rest is suitable and able to give proper pre-flight rest for the obvious reasons which are amply demonstrated by this fiasco.
BA pilots are fortunate that hotels are inspected by BALPA reps. prior to contracts being signed and BA does not book a hotel regardless of any concerns BALPA may have. The problem arises when we are not given the rooms often specified in the contract. Hotel managements will lie through their teeth and pretend they are unaware of any special clauses in a contract when they are busy or full and unable to comply. BA will and do cancel a contract and move crew should a hotel prove unsuitable or not adhere to the clauses in the contract.
The captain concerned would have suffered great anguish in complying with the law by not flying without being sufficiently rested. As a fellow captain I can honestly say that none of us willingly disrupts hundreds of fare paying passengers nor gives our long suffering station staff untold grief by causing a delay or cancellation without good reason.
The comments of partying by the hotel management are a disgrace. The days of crews living it up at wild parties only hours before a flight are long, long gone. Awareness of responsibility, awareness of the dangers and the fact that nowadays you will be caught have all contributed to a major change in attitude and behaviour in the last 20 years.
I know for a fact that BA and BALPA are both fully behind the captain who has had the misfortune to be at this storm not of his making.
BA pilots are fortunate that hotels are inspected by BALPA reps. prior to contracts being signed and BA does not book a hotel regardless of any concerns BALPA may have. The problem arises when we are not given the rooms often specified in the contract. Hotel managements will lie through their teeth and pretend they are unaware of any special clauses in a contract when they are busy or full and unable to comply. BA will and do cancel a contract and move crew should a hotel prove unsuitable or not adhere to the clauses in the contract.
The captain concerned would have suffered great anguish in complying with the law by not flying without being sufficiently rested. As a fellow captain I can honestly say that none of us willingly disrupts hundreds of fare paying passengers nor gives our long suffering station staff untold grief by causing a delay or cancellation without good reason.
The comments of partying by the hotel management are a disgrace. The days of crews living it up at wild parties only hours before a flight are long, long gone. Awareness of responsibility, awareness of the dangers and the fact that nowadays you will be caught have all contributed to a major change in attitude and behaviour in the last 20 years.
I know for a fact that BA and BALPA are both fully behind the captain who has had the misfortune to be at this storm not of his making.
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I´ve had my fair share of the DEL Intercontinental experience myself.....
Yes, the hotel IS located next to a very busy railway line. If you get a room on that side you can enjoy the train horns every 3-5mins. 24/7. I´ve always refused the suite on that side and moved to a standard room on the non-train side. Don´t need a big room and flatscreen TV - need to get some rest!
The windows in that 5-star Hotel are not of the noise-cancelling type either
About half a year ago - when there was heavy construction work going on for a couple of months - we were welcomed with the question when it would be OK for us to endure the noise of the works in progress. Knowing that it´s hard to get the sleeping habbits of an entire crew under one hat, but also understanding the hotels need to get the work done, we agreed to 1pm - 5pm "noise time". Of course, the next day the noise started at 10am and was still omni-present at 7pm (pick-up was somewhere near midnight). Phone rings and the F/O tells me he´s got the manager in his room and if the noise doesn´t stop in 10mins. he´s moving to the Hilton for the next 12hours. Went down to dicover that they were literally working next door to his room with heavy machinery. Talked to the manager on duty - noise diminished after 20mins. Back to my room and in bed - guess what? Noise starts next to my room, but even in better quality than that of the F/O.
That day, we were as close as cancelling the flight for lack of sleep as I´ve ever come so far....
Couple of weeks later: getting some afternoon sleep when being thrown out of bed by the mighty subwoofers outside the hotel lobby. Fearing the worst I tumble down to the front desk, ask for the manager on duty. He tells me not to worry, there will be no noise to disturb our well-deserved sleep. And smiles that Indian smile.
Half an hour later, the party starts with full volume.....no comment....
I know, that noise IS a big problem for crews needing to get some rest during daytime - but for me, Delhi and especially the Intercontinental beats the rest of the world (even those club hotels in the Caribbean).
Good decision by that CPT!
Yes, the hotel IS located next to a very busy railway line. If you get a room on that side you can enjoy the train horns every 3-5mins. 24/7. I´ve always refused the suite on that side and moved to a standard room on the non-train side. Don´t need a big room and flatscreen TV - need to get some rest!
The windows in that 5-star Hotel are not of the noise-cancelling type either
About half a year ago - when there was heavy construction work going on for a couple of months - we were welcomed with the question when it would be OK for us to endure the noise of the works in progress. Knowing that it´s hard to get the sleeping habbits of an entire crew under one hat, but also understanding the hotels need to get the work done, we agreed to 1pm - 5pm "noise time". Of course, the next day the noise started at 10am and was still omni-present at 7pm (pick-up was somewhere near midnight). Phone rings and the F/O tells me he´s got the manager in his room and if the noise doesn´t stop in 10mins. he´s moving to the Hilton for the next 12hours. Went down to dicover that they were literally working next door to his room with heavy machinery. Talked to the manager on duty - noise diminished after 20mins. Back to my room and in bed - guess what? Noise starts next to my room, but even in better quality than that of the F/O.
That day, we were as close as cancelling the flight for lack of sleep as I´ve ever come so far....
Couple of weeks later: getting some afternoon sleep when being thrown out of bed by the mighty subwoofers outside the hotel lobby. Fearing the worst I tumble down to the front desk, ask for the manager on duty. He tells me not to worry, there will be no noise to disturb our well-deserved sleep. And smiles that Indian smile.
Half an hour later, the party starts with full volume.....no comment....
I know, that noise IS a big problem for crews needing to get some rest during daytime - but for me, Delhi and especially the Intercontinental beats the rest of the world (even those club hotels in the Caribbean).
Good decision by that CPT!
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Intercon VIDP
Check out their web sit reviews, the one from some folk in ZRH gives an indication. For lizardking, that's just perhaps your Intercon indoc crxp coming out, stay a lizard on my wall and keep the mozies off.
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“Ours is a five-star hotel and not some local hotel that there would be disturbances.
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
There was no disturbance on Saturday night and the entire crew was partying that night and this could have been the reason for them not being able to take off,” said Intercontinental Grand Hotel spokesperson after the British Airways crew alleged that the flight to London was delayed because they could not get proper sleep due to disturbance in the hotel.
Either way, this needs to be cleared up. By the way, in a thread of Flyertalk, a passenger reports: http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=682931 - the main complaint seems to be that they were more or less left to their own devices and were forced to share rooms, and some even beds in their hotel accommodation.
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Ah, right, so some of the crew met up for a couple of drinks (no doubt in the crew room), having flown all day, and now it has become "the entire crew were partying that night". I flew the Jumbo for 4 years with BA, and, only once had an "entire" crew out. So a group of people, who have just had long and hard day can't meet for a drink?
The impression that press release gives, to me, anyway, is that the crew cancelled the flight because they all felt too shabby after their "partying", the night before, and that, I believe, was the intent of the release. Just deflect the blame somewhere else. Hey! I know - airline crews have been in the news lately for drinking too much, so lets just hint that's that what happened here.
I hope BA cancel the contract, and extract maximum penalties from the hotel. Too many hotels take the p***. Happy enough to accept the crew in the low season, and the guaranteed income, but resent them when they don't spend all their money in the hotel, and when they know they could fill their rooms with different paying customers.
The impression that press release gives, to me, anyway, is that the crew cancelled the flight because they all felt too shabby after their "partying", the night before, and that, I believe, was the intent of the release. Just deflect the blame somewhere else. Hey! I know - airline crews have been in the news lately for drinking too much, so lets just hint that's that what happened here.
I hope BA cancel the contract, and extract maximum penalties from the hotel. Too many hotels take the p***. Happy enough to accept the crew in the low season, and the guaranteed income, but resent them when they don't spend all their money in the hotel, and when they know they could fill their rooms with different paying customers.
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I have had the misfortune to find myself in the bar of this particular hotel. I can't believe that anybody except Bill Gates could actually afford to 'party all night' in there; the prices are ridiculous! 
It seems from most of the later reports that the passengers main gripe was not what the crew did, but rather the inefficient way the ground staff dealt with the problem. This does not seem to stop certain tabloids from insinuating that the crew packed it in "'cos they were a bit tired." Maybe food for thought for anybody considering using the press to highlight the current issues surrounding work loads, work patterns and fatigue. You probably won't get a sympathetic ear from much of the mainstream press.
It seems from most of the later reports that the passengers main gripe was not what the crew did, but rather the inefficient way the ground staff dealt with the problem. This does not seem to stop certain tabloids from insinuating that the crew packed it in "'cos they were a bit tired." Maybe food for thought for anybody considering using the press to highlight the current issues surrounding work loads, work patterns and fatigue. You probably won't get a sympathetic ear from much of the mainstream press.
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Have had same problem at our hotel in Accra (more than once)... i.e. trying to get some pre night-flight sleep whilst a band tunes their instruments (i.e. for a reception being held at the hotel) in the courtyard area directly outside our bedrooms
End result? Both us drivers sticking out the zzzz's during the early hours somewhere over Algeria.
Imho, this was a good call by that Captain!
End result? Both us drivers sticking out the zzzz's during the early hours somewhere over Algeria.
Imho, this was a good call by that Captain!
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As the BA crew are certain to know it is a criminal offence in India to drink within twelve hours of a flight so whether they had a party or not is likely to be irrelevant as it would have been all over long before it could be a consideration as to the crews fitness to fly.
Never understand hotels that will pander to a single guest who spends a few nights a year at their hotel but go out of their way to stuff up a crew who are on a very lucrative contract and who are often the sole reason for keeping staff employed during the winter months.
Actually I do understand it, the hotel keeps the local airline staff happy by giving them cheap deals for their families, inviting them for free meals to 'test our new menu' etc. etc. and in the case of India, no doubt money changes hands or jobs are given to family members, though probably not at BA's station manager level.
Never understand hotels that will pander to a single guest who spends a few nights a year at their hotel but go out of their way to stuff up a crew who are on a very lucrative contract and who are often the sole reason for keeping staff employed during the winter months.
Actually I do understand it, the hotel keeps the local airline staff happy by giving them cheap deals for their families, inviting them for free meals to 'test our new menu' etc. etc. and in the case of India, no doubt money changes hands or jobs are given to family members, though probably not at BA's station manager level.
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Lets also not forget that Crew into india are not allowed to take off alcohol with them so its not likely that the crew simply drank their crew purchase or duty free booze dry in the 24 hours!!!
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The media choose to believe that it was the crew living it up rather than a hotel in a poor location flinging the dirt around. The railway, noise, building work, cricket match is all provable, there's no proof the crew were unfit due to alcohol but you can bet your life the direction the reporting will have taken.
The only thing I believe to be true in the tabloid media these days is the horoscopes.
I think it would be cheaper at our destinations for the company to buy a big house, employ staff and security and keep the crews there. Staff are direct employees of the company, so have vested interest in keeping crew comfortable, no other guests and the company can offset the running costs with increases in property value.
The only thing I believe to be true in the tabloid media these days is the horoscopes.
I think it would be cheaper at our destinations for the company to buy a big house, employ staff and security and keep the crews there. Staff are direct employees of the company, so have vested interest in keeping crew comfortable, no other guests and the company can offset the running costs with increases in property value.
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Well done to the Captain for taking a decision to put the safety of the aircraft number one and ignoring commercial considerations.Well done to BA managment for giving him 100% support.
I trust the pilots will sue the hotel for substantial damages for their defamatory remarks.
I trust the pilots will sue the hotel for substantial damages for their defamatory remarks.
A pushier, nastier, grabbier, wanting-wanting, more demanding, ill-mannered, rude and irritating bunch of "passengers" (considered inserting a different adjective there) you'll not easily find.
*ducks*
Seriously, how stupid are the folks at the Intercontinental to have chosen a site next to the railway station in the first place? As for service, the ones in Bombay are fine, maybe its that thing about Delhiities again!
On the other hand, I cant understand the bit about the cricket match. The premises of the hotel must be large enough for any noise from a match being played - even on the street outside - to be sufficiently lowered.
Even more timely is this week's Flight International Editorial, Still dead tired, revisiting the FAA and its lack of fatigue management.
Good to see the BA crew stand up for commonsense
Good to see the BA crew stand up for commonsense