Tenerife. March, 27th, 1977.
Trash du Blanc
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That survivor in the picture was the Pan Am f/o. I saw him on a documentary once - he said that when he came to, he looked to his right and there was nothing beween him and the ground. He unbuckled and jumped, breaking his leg in the process. A flight attendant helped him away from the flames.
CRM courses (if they're good) always cover this crash, the Air Florida one in D.C., the Alaska Airlines 727 ("the fox has got it wired..."), and the Bruno's Beechjet corporate crash in Georgia. All of them have this in common: the copilot knew something was wrong, and may even have communicated this to the captain, but in the end was not assertive enough.
This may not be true, but we were told once that the KLM copilot yanked the throttles back to idle once, but the captain just pushed them up again....
CRM courses (if they're good) always cover this crash, the Air Florida one in D.C., the Alaska Airlines 727 ("the fox has got it wired..."), and the Bruno's Beechjet corporate crash in Georgia. All of them have this in common: the copilot knew something was wrong, and may even have communicated this to the captain, but in the end was not assertive enough.
This may not be true, but we were told once that the KLM copilot yanked the throttles back to idle once, but the captain just pushed them up again....
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This may not be true, but we were told once that the KLM copilot yanked the throttles back to idle once, but the captain just pushed them up again....
This may not be true, but we were told once that the KLM copilot yanked the throttles back to idle once, but the captain just pushed them up again....
It was then that the Captain decided this constituted a take-off clearence and started to roll. I've heard the CVR and the FOs panicked "We are at Takeoff" complete with engines spooling up in the background, clearly indicate he knew all was not well.
forget,
Your first post also made a strong point-though perhaps not the one you intended.
Major accidents will always have a strong political element, especially when "Flag Carrier" airlines are involved (Just look at Erebus).
The report you quoted was a pretty clear example of the Dutch trying to shift blame away from "Their Boy" and their airline.
If you are in a bingle, don't expect national authorities to play by the rules.
Get on the first plane home, and have your lawer waiting for you when you get there!!
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Your first post also made a strong point-though perhaps not the one you intended.
forget,
ABSOULUTELY no offence intended! The point of that report (that cross-transmissions were and still are a problem ) is valid and well taken.
HOWEVER My point was that that report was an example of National bodies bowing to National interests and trying to shift blame away from their own people.
The KLM flight rolled without clearence. That is the proximate cause of the crash. To try and minimise that by emphisising casual factors such as the limitations of VHF was an attempt by the Dutch to save national pride.
ABSOULUTELY no offence intended! The point of that report (that cross-transmissions were and still are a problem ) is valid and well taken.
HOWEVER My point was that that report was an example of National bodies bowing to National interests and trying to shift blame away from their own people.
The KLM flight rolled without clearence. That is the proximate cause of the crash. To try and minimise that by emphisising casual factors such as the limitations of VHF was an attempt by the Dutch to save national pride.
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No offence taken; in fact, I thought my genuine query of you could be mis-read as bordering on the smart a*se.
I do take your point but, in fairness to the Dutch, they did eventually accept that the disaster was the sole fault of 'their boy' - who started rolling without clearance.
But 'eventually' took a while to reach. As you say, the DG's remarks were, and are still entirely valid. If the KLM crew had heard either of the conflicting transmissions then March 27th would be just another day.
I do take your point but, in fairness to the Dutch, they did eventually accept that the disaster was the sole fault of 'their boy' - who started rolling without clearance.
But 'eventually' took a while to reach. As you say, the DG's remarks were, and are still entirely valid. If the KLM crew had heard either of the conflicting transmissions then March 27th would be just another day.
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And in spite of the obvious and tragic implications of misunderstood instructions, poor radio discipline and non standard wording... there are still people out there who mindlessly advocate and defend the use of multi- language operations... 
Click on "original Transcripts" and....be patient - server is obviously busy today
http://www.tenerifecrash.com
http://www.tenerifecrash.com
Actually, the transcript is missing the last 10 seconds of the KLM CVR, which to my mind has never been publicly available.
Additionally, this accident to me (and many others) highlighted the pivotal role the F/E plays (could have played) as the "third set of eyes and ears". If only we can say now. RIP.
Additionally, this accident to me (and many others) highlighted the pivotal role the F/E plays (could have played) as the "third set of eyes and ears". If only we can say now. RIP.
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was there yesterday morning,was an errie sensation taxying around there knowing that today was the 30 year "memorial" of that fatal day.
alot of interesting points regarding radio limitations and multilanguage use in certain parts of europe (am short haul), while i usually dont mind atc talking to their fellow countrymen in their native tongue i feel it does diminish situational awareness with other aircraft.
alot of interesting points regarding radio limitations and multilanguage use in certain parts of europe (am short haul), while i usually dont mind atc talking to their fellow countrymen in their native tongue i feel it does diminish situational awareness with other aircraft.
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Actually, the transcript is missing the last 10 seconds of the KLM CVR, which to my mind has never been publicly available.
ca. 1706:13 KLM-1 We gaan. (We're going)
1706:18.19 APP OK.
1706:19.3 RDO No .. eh.
1706:20.08 APP Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
1706:20.3 RDO And we're still taxiing down the runway, the clipper one seven three six.
1706:19.39 - 1706:23.19 RDO and APP communications caused a shrill noise in KLM cockpit - messages not heard by KLM crew.
1706:25.6 APP Roger alpha one seven three six report when runway clear
1706:29.6 RDO OK, we'll report when we're clear.
APP Thank you
1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}
1706:40 PanAm captain sees landinglights of KLM Boeing at approx. 700m
1706:44 PH-BUF started rotation
1706:47.44 KLM-1 [Scream]
1706:50 collision
The KLM CVR functioned after rotation. Having been privy a few years ago to the transcript, I'd rather leave it at that.
I guess I won't be giving any secrets out when I say parts were transcribed in the 1977 (same year) book "Terror at Tenerife" however. Its out of print now but available via the usual online sources used.
I guess I won't be giving any secrets out when I say parts were transcribed in the 1977 (same year) book "Terror at Tenerife" however. Its out of print now but available via the usual online sources used.
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The KLM CVR functioned after rotation. Having been privy a few years ago to the transcript, I'd rather leave it at that.
Correction to both above.
I've got US ALPA's full report here.
The KLM FO called V1 at 1706-48-59.
Impact at 1706-49-03.
End of recording 1706-49-81.
.....and now I see the time stamps are different
Last edited by forget; 27th Mar 2007 at 20:33.
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MungoP
In the US, "ready for takeoff" is the correct phrase. And in our AIM, it is assumed a turbine powered plane (jet) is ready for takeoff upon reaching the runway.
What is utterly tragic still today is the lack of ground radar covering all airports .
the technology was around since before I was born...it is the poor allocation of resources that is the problem.
In the US, "ready for takeoff" is the correct phrase. And in our AIM, it is assumed a turbine powered plane (jet) is ready for takeoff upon reaching the runway.
What is utterly tragic still today is the lack of ground radar covering all airports .
the technology was around since before I was born...it is the poor allocation of resources that is the problem.
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I use this accident in CRM training regularly. I believe that there was no radar at all at TFN at the time and only a tower frequency in use.
I flew there (as pax) 3 years ago and there have been huge improvements.....still took two approaches to get in though!!!!
aero
I flew there (as pax) 3 years ago and there have been huge improvements.....still took two approaches to get in though!!!!
aero
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Would someone be kind enough to clarify for me...?
I understood that the airport where this accident occurred was later closed and commercial traffic rerouted to the island's other airport. If I remember correctly, the accident locus was Los Rodeos airport (coincidentally a military airport, at the time at least) and that the airport which subsequently became the island's commercial airport was Reina Sophia airport.
My interest was piqued when other posters in this thread spoke of operating to the accident airport. I have been absent Europe for a long while now. Does Tenerife now operate both airports commercially, or am I just ready for the alzheimer's medication?
Regards, PB
I understood that the airport where this accident occurred was later closed and commercial traffic rerouted to the island's other airport. If I remember correctly, the accident locus was Los Rodeos airport (coincidentally a military airport, at the time at least) and that the airport which subsequently became the island's commercial airport was Reina Sophia airport.
My interest was piqued when other posters in this thread spoke of operating to the accident airport. I have been absent Europe for a long while now. Does Tenerife now operate both airports commercially, or am I just ready for the alzheimer's medication?
Regards, PB
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The most evocative photo I thought was of a gentleman standing, looking at the burning wreck, minus pants and with his underpants in tatters and draped around his knees. On the cover of "Times" I seem to recall.
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Los Rodeos, the northern airport, never closed. It got a lot quieter when Renia Sofia opened but is now becoming more busy each year as each island of the seven island chain, Canary Islands, now has an airport and air traffic is increasing.
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I don't know how you guys feel about CRM, but most airlines I've worked for have great CRM programs that talk all cout accidents and how lack of CRM was a big contributor. The best one I went through started with a clip from the movie "Crimson Tide". It showed the confrontation between the SIC and the Captain regarding the launching of missiles. And it also involved blocked transmissions, similar to Tenerife. I thought it was a great way to ilustrate the point of CRM and how the Captain is not always right. Yet airlines, and unions, seem to have this push for "Captain's Authority". In my opinion, it should be more like "Flight crew's authority". There needs to be a boss up front, but there also needs to be someone to check and make sure the boss is thinking clearly.
None of the airlines I've worked for have programs which remove from duty, or provide remedial training to pilots who lack CRM. We've all flown with certain Captains, or even FOs, who really need some "charm school". What is the solution?? Well, usually these individuals are well known, so eventually people learn their quirks and most just steer arround them to make things operate smoothly.
My question is, if airlines really cared about CRM, they would have a program that identifies these individuals and retrains them or removes them from the cockpit. I'm sure this dutch Captain had a reputation. You can just tell by the tone in the cockpit when you read the transcript that his managing skills are attrocious. He wasn't just snapping at the flight crew, but also at the cabin crew. Yet his company regarded him as a golden boy.
I don't really feel that the airlines really care about CRM, they have these programs just to satisfy regulatory requirements. But do they really adjust their operation to ensure good CRM is practised in the cockpit? Not in my opinion
.
None of the airlines I've worked for have programs which remove from duty, or provide remedial training to pilots who lack CRM. We've all flown with certain Captains, or even FOs, who really need some "charm school". What is the solution?? Well, usually these individuals are well known, so eventually people learn their quirks and most just steer arround them to make things operate smoothly.
My question is, if airlines really cared about CRM, they would have a program that identifies these individuals and retrains them or removes them from the cockpit. I'm sure this dutch Captain had a reputation. You can just tell by the tone in the cockpit when you read the transcript that his managing skills are attrocious. He wasn't just snapping at the flight crew, but also at the cabin crew. Yet his company regarded him as a golden boy.
I don't really feel that the airlines really care about CRM, they have these programs just to satisfy regulatory requirements. But do they really adjust their operation to ensure good CRM is practised in the cockpit? Not in my opinion
.
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On the fringes of CRM, one ludicrous Dutch ‘regulation’ that was changed after the accident was the penalty for exceeding crew duty hours. By Dutch law it was a criminal offence!
Captain Van Zanten was already on his limits and would have had this in mind at the time.
Who’s to say that this wasn’t the single biggest hole in the cheese. Had the threat of a criminal record not been there would he have been more relaxed; would he …….. and on, and on.
Point is. Those responsible for effective CRM are not confined to the cockpit.
Captain Van Zanten was already on his limits and would have had this in mind at the time.
Who’s to say that this wasn’t the single biggest hole in the cheese. Had the threat of a criminal record not been there would he have been more relaxed; would he …….. and on, and on.
Point is. Those responsible for effective CRM are not confined to the cockpit.