EDI-EWR "It's a sure thing".
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EDI-EWR "It's a sure thing".
Source: Sunday Times 19th. Aug 2001
THE American airline Continental is close to confirming the first transatlantic flights from Edinburgh airport in an important step forward in the growth of Scotland's international air links.
Details are being finalised for a daily flight between Edinburgh and Newark, New Jersey, to start next May, and an announcement is expected within weeks. A senior airline source said yesterday: "It's
a sure thing."
The deal is a political coup for Henry McLeish, first minister in the Scottish executive, over his Labour colleague Helen Liddell, the Scottish secretary.
Liddell had called a summit meeting of air industry chiefs for September 26 and was keen to take the lead in opening up new routes to Scots travellers, enticing more tourists to fly directly to Scottish airports instead
of arriving via London.
The regulation of aviation and air transport is the responsibility of the UK government.However, credit for landing such a significant new route is now likely to go to the first minister.
Continental's chief operating officer met McLeish and Sarah Boyack, the transport
minister, in March as part of the effort to clinch the project. Continental has not
had any meetings with Liddell or George Foulkes, her deputy.
VisitScotland, the Scottish executive's tourism agency, is expected to sweeten
the deal by providing marketing cash to help to promote the new route - although
there is some frustration among airline officials about the length of time it is
taking to confirm the amount of support.
The SNP yesterday welcomed news of the route, but urged the executive to ensure that delays in finalising the assistance package did not jeopardise the deal.
Continental is in the process of signing off its budgets for next year. A lengthy delay would reduce the amount of time available
to the airline to market the new route, reducing the success of
its launch.
"Continental is important to Scotland," said Kenny Mac-Askill, the SNP's enterprise spokesman.
"The executive must ensure that money is there to clinch this new link."
MacAskill also paid tribute to The Sunday Times' Fares Fair for Scotland campaign, which has been pushing since March for
more direct international air links from Scottish airports to attract tourists and open up new holiday opportunities for Scots.
In that time, government and opposition politicians have accelerated their efforts to encourage new links.
Recent months have seen a number of routes being announced, including BMI British Midland flights from Edinburgh to Brussels; Ryanair from Edinburgh to Dublin; and easyJet and ScotAirways flights to Amsterdam.
Continental executives have taken some persuading that Scotland needs an
additional transatlantic route on top of the airline's existing Glasgow-New York
service, which has attracted 350,000 passengers in the three years since it
was set up.
Bosses found it difficult to understand why some east coast business people
prefer to fly from Edinburgh to London and then across the Atlantic, rather than
drive 50 miles to Glasgow airport.
One factor that persuaded them of the route's viability was the number of declarations
of support from large Scottish firms, including the Royal Bank of Scotland and
Scottish Widows, committing their executives to using the service.
BAA, owner and operator of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports, played a
significant part in clinching the deal, offering discounted airport charges for a set period, freeing up check-in desks and also promising marketing support.
International route planners from Continental were in Scotland three weeks ago to
finalise arrangements.
Steve Craven, Scottish sales manager for Continental, yesterday issued an upbeat statement about the new route: "It's there
as a potential new route for next year. I'm confident it will happen."
THE American airline Continental is close to confirming the first transatlantic flights from Edinburgh airport in an important step forward in the growth of Scotland's international air links.
Details are being finalised for a daily flight between Edinburgh and Newark, New Jersey, to start next May, and an announcement is expected within weeks. A senior airline source said yesterday: "It's
a sure thing."
The deal is a political coup for Henry McLeish, first minister in the Scottish executive, over his Labour colleague Helen Liddell, the Scottish secretary.
Liddell had called a summit meeting of air industry chiefs for September 26 and was keen to take the lead in opening up new routes to Scots travellers, enticing more tourists to fly directly to Scottish airports instead
of arriving via London.
The regulation of aviation and air transport is the responsibility of the UK government.However, credit for landing such a significant new route is now likely to go to the first minister.
Continental's chief operating officer met McLeish and Sarah Boyack, the transport
minister, in March as part of the effort to clinch the project. Continental has not
had any meetings with Liddell or George Foulkes, her deputy.
VisitScotland, the Scottish executive's tourism agency, is expected to sweeten
the deal by providing marketing cash to help to promote the new route - although
there is some frustration among airline officials about the length of time it is
taking to confirm the amount of support.
The SNP yesterday welcomed news of the route, but urged the executive to ensure that delays in finalising the assistance package did not jeopardise the deal.
Continental is in the process of signing off its budgets for next year. A lengthy delay would reduce the amount of time available
to the airline to market the new route, reducing the success of
its launch.
"Continental is important to Scotland," said Kenny Mac-Askill, the SNP's enterprise spokesman.
"The executive must ensure that money is there to clinch this new link."
MacAskill also paid tribute to The Sunday Times' Fares Fair for Scotland campaign, which has been pushing since March for
more direct international air links from Scottish airports to attract tourists and open up new holiday opportunities for Scots.
In that time, government and opposition politicians have accelerated their efforts to encourage new links.
Recent months have seen a number of routes being announced, including BMI British Midland flights from Edinburgh to Brussels; Ryanair from Edinburgh to Dublin; and easyJet and ScotAirways flights to Amsterdam.
Continental executives have taken some persuading that Scotland needs an
additional transatlantic route on top of the airline's existing Glasgow-New York
service, which has attracted 350,000 passengers in the three years since it
was set up.
Bosses found it difficult to understand why some east coast business people
prefer to fly from Edinburgh to London and then across the Atlantic, rather than
drive 50 miles to Glasgow airport.
One factor that persuaded them of the route's viability was the number of declarations
of support from large Scottish firms, including the Royal Bank of Scotland and
Scottish Widows, committing their executives to using the service.
BAA, owner and operator of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports, played a
significant part in clinching the deal, offering discounted airport charges for a set period, freeing up check-in desks and also promising marketing support.
International route planners from Continental were in Scotland three weeks ago to
finalise arrangements.
Steve Craven, Scottish sales manager for Continental, yesterday issued an upbeat statement about the new route: "It's there
as a potential new route for next year. I'm confident it will happen."
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It will happen. The question is whether CO take advantage of an early departure from Scotland to attract the front end traffic.
This would mean the first Scottish departure would get a businessman in New York in time for a full day's business and probably get in ahead of Concorde in NYC.
A 7.00 from Glasgow and a 12.00 noon from EDI
would make more sense that having departures at approximately the same time from two airports 50 miles apart.
If the BA/AA thingy goes ahead as seems likely what is unlikely is BA return to the GLA/JFK service specially if CO are double daily out of Scotland.
This would mean the first Scottish departure would get a businessman in New York in time for a full day's business and probably get in ahead of Concorde in NYC.
A 7.00 from Glasgow and a 12.00 noon from EDI
would make more sense that having departures at approximately the same time from two airports 50 miles apart.
If the BA/AA thingy goes ahead as seems likely what is unlikely is BA return to the GLA/JFK service specially if CO are double daily out of Scotland.
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>>A 7.00 from Glasgow and a 12.00 noon from EDI would make more sense that having departures at approximately the same time from two airports 50 miles apart.<<
I would have thought a 0700 from EDI and 12 noon from GLA would make sense given that the bulk of front end traffic will originate from
the EDI area?
One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their
announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ?
I would have thought a 0700 from EDI and 12 noon from GLA would make sense given that the bulk of front end traffic will originate from
the EDI area?
One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their
announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ?
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Joe,
I agree on the timings issue. 0700 ex EDI would be best.
>>>One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ? <<<
I reckon that was a spoiler to try and stop CO operating out of EDI so they could continue to feed traffic over MAN.
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]
I agree on the timings issue. 0700 ex EDI would be best.
>>>One also wonders if bmi will follow-up their announcement to operate an EDI-USA service 'within months'. ? <<<
I reckon that was a spoiler to try and stop CO operating out of EDI so they could continue to feed traffic over MAN.
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]
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Of course, what CO have conveniently forgotten to mention is that the EDI frequencies will be at the expense of GLA.
Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline, meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there, which creates a 'hassle factor' which disincentivises travel. In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!
The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope - and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England; and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics.
Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline, meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there, which creates a 'hassle factor' which disincentivises travel. In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!
The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope - and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England; and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics.
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Guvnor - whether they have their own airline or not, the Scots as a race are clever enough to know that they won't want to fly to the USA in a clapped out old TriStar; megacarriers they may be, but give me one of Continental's new Boeings any day.
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WOW! what a lot of stuff that needs a response.
>>>what CO have conveniently forgotten to mention is that the EDI frequencies will be at the expense of GLA. <<<<
No they wont. The service will be additional to Glasgow. Intially a 757 at each with the possibilty of a 767 on one route (probably EDI) if the growth is there.
>>>Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline,<<<<
So what. Scotland is also the graveyard for those who have tried to run a Scottish Airline. We are in global markets now. As long as the airline respects all the legal requirements for operating in the UK does it really matter what the nationality of ownership is?
>>>meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there<<<
Its market forces not nationality of airline that determines this.
>>>In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one<<<
This would be a waste of money. return to the days of national airlines subsidised by their governments? I thought we were trying to move away from that.
>>>rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!<<<<
The only fickle US carrier was United who came in and trashed the market, scared off Northwest and then pulled out themselves.
Northwest now carry more Scots passengers over Amsterdam than they did when they had a direct service form either GLA or PIK.
>>>>The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope <<<<<
There is not a market for non-stop flights to the West coast USA other than the occasional charter. Not worth spending millions on runway extension for that. And anyway if you do want to fly to the West coast you have PIK. The market will determine viability.
>>>- and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England;<<<<
Why should the BAA want to move flights outwith where people want them?
>>>and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; <<<
No perceived market to fit in with their global plan.
>>>BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; <<< Becasue they were screwed over being unable to go into partnership with AA. That would have made the route work with beyond New York traffic connecting at JFK.
>>>and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics<<<<
At least we agree on that one!
>>>what CO have conveniently forgotten to mention is that the EDI frequencies will be at the expense of GLA. <<<<
No they wont. The service will be additional to Glasgow. Intially a 757 at each with the possibilty of a 767 on one route (probably EDI) if the growth is there.
>>>Scotland is the only major European country without its own airline,<<<<
So what. Scotland is also the graveyard for those who have tried to run a Scottish Airline. We are in global markets now. As long as the airline respects all the legal requirements for operating in the UK does it really matter what the nationality of ownership is?
>>>meaning that visitors have to fly via a third country to get there<<<
Its market forces not nationality of airline that determines this.
>>>In my opinion, the Scottish Executive would be much better off trying to help establish one<<<
This would be a waste of money. return to the days of national airlines subsidised by their governments? I thought we were trying to move away from that.
>>>rather than pandering to fickle US megacarriers that will be out of here in a heartbeat if things don't go as planned for them!<<<<
The only fickle US carrier was United who came in and trashed the market, scared off Northwest and then pulled out themselves.
Northwest now carry more Scots passengers over Amsterdam than they did when they had a direct service form either GLA or PIK.
>>>>The two biggest problems affecting Scottish aviation are airports - only PIK has a runway long enough to serve the whole of the USA - neither EDI or GLA can extend theirs to cope <<<<<
There is not a market for non-stop flights to the West coast USA other than the occasional charter. Not worth spending millions on runway extension for that. And anyway if you do want to fly to the West coast you have PIK. The market will determine viability.
>>>- and the BAA has no interest in helping alleviate ATC problems by moving flights outside SE England;<<<<
Why should the BAA want to move flights outwith where people want them?
>>>and airlines - VS has shown no interest at all in Scotland; <<<
No perceived market to fit in with their global plan.
>>>BA dropped its direct services from GLA many years ago; <<< Becasue they were screwed over being unable to go into partnership with AA. That would have made the route work with beyond New York traffic connecting at JFK.
>>>and although BD holds route licences from EDI to points in the USA and Canada I can't see them using them - especially if they can get access to LHR to use their A330s on transatlantics<<<<
At least we agree on that one!
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You're not the PR bloke for CO, by any chance, John? 
Ok, let's address your responses:
EDI frequencies
I have it on good authority from one of the senior marketing people at CO that they view the EDI and GLA markets basically as one. They have seemingly done their O&D research and bearing in mind the relative market sizes (metropolitan Glasgow being some five times the size of metropolitan Edinburgh) I'm personally rather sceptical of the viability of transatlantics ex EDI.
Sure, a lot of businesses are EDI based, leading one to assume good high yield traffic - but is it going to be sufficient to sustain year-round operations? Again, you have special events such as the Edinburgh festival that increase - substantially - the numbers of tourists but again, this doesn't justify year round ops to EDI.
Scottish airline
Actually, there has only been one attempt at a home-grown Scottish long haul airline (if one disregards Adam Thompson's Caledonian which although it operated very successfully from PIK was nevertheless a LGW based carrier) - and that was Randolph Fields' Highland Express. Their primary downfall was that they used a single old, poorly maintained B747-100 which kept breaking down. Single aircraft airlines just don't work - especially in that sort of market.
If a country is to be seen as a serious contender in the global marketplace, it must be readily accessible to both visitors and investors. Even the Isle of Man (Manx), Channel Islands (Aurigny) and Wales (Air Wales) have their own, home-grown, carriers - Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.
Scotland continues to move towards full independence within a federal Europe, and I would therefore assert that yes, it is extremely important for it to have a locally owned and based airline!
Operations via a third country
Which is why Scotland needs its own airline - as I said, the hassle factor puts people off coming there: and that applies as much to investors as it does to tourists.
Scottish Executive
CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier that will probably pull out of the market after a year or so anyway.
The provision of government funds does not necessarily signify that the operation would be government controlled - look at the subsidies provided to various essential air operations such as the Highlands and Islands, Scilly Isles, etc.
Investment in an airline by the Scottish Executive via Scottish Enterprise will generate jobs and stimulate inward investment - its something that's good for Scotland plc.
No West Coast USA - Scotland market
I disagree completely with that - the 1996 CAA O&D stats show that there is indeed a very viable market to the West Coast of the USA. In addition, direct services would stimulate traffic from that area (the LA basin has a population 50% greater than the whole of Scotland!) - especially for golfing and other specialist vacations.
My point was that neither GLA or EDI have extendable runways - and that PIK remains the only true long-haul airport in Scotland.
BAA
First, bear in mind that a very sizeable number of passengers (in excess of 50%) do not use London as an O&D point. In other words, LGW and LHR (especially the latter) are simply hub airports. As with several of the US megahubs, they could be in the middle of nowhere and it wouldn't affect the passengers. A hub in Scotland would make a great deal of sense as it would alleviate ATC congestion in the London TMA and again provide a substantial number of jobs. In the case of passengers headed to northern Europe from the Eastern USA, it would also have the effect of cutting their overall journey time substantially.
The monopoly position of the BAA is something that needs to be closely investigated. They control pretty much every major international airport in the UK with the exception of Manchester (and BHX if you regard that as a major international airport). In particular, they have an effective monopoly (with the exception of LTN) on major airports in SE England. Is this really acceptable?
BA
As the UK's 'national airline' shouldn't they have a duty to provide effective, direct service to Scotland? Not to them, anyway! They would far rather have pax leave their homes in EDI or GLA and fly over them again a few hours later having transited through LHR or LGW having been able to screw them for a few hundred pounds more thanks to the 'sum of sector' fare rules affecting UK-US flights from those airports under Bermuda II.
BA has enough interline agreements in place with carriers beside AA to allow the feed of pax to/from their gateway destinations, so that argument doesn't wash, I'm afraid!
In any case, the 'sum of sectors' rules would not apply to flights originating from airports other than LHR and LGW - so passenger convenience and cost saving is once again being put second to BA's quest for operational efficiency and profit. (And as a BA shareholder I'd applaud them for that, btw - but it does tend to negate their position as the UK's flag carrier!)
Ok, let's address your responses:EDI frequencies
I have it on good authority from one of the senior marketing people at CO that they view the EDI and GLA markets basically as one. They have seemingly done their O&D research and bearing in mind the relative market sizes (metropolitan Glasgow being some five times the size of metropolitan Edinburgh) I'm personally rather sceptical of the viability of transatlantics ex EDI.
Sure, a lot of businesses are EDI based, leading one to assume good high yield traffic - but is it going to be sufficient to sustain year-round operations? Again, you have special events such as the Edinburgh festival that increase - substantially - the numbers of tourists but again, this doesn't justify year round ops to EDI.
Scottish airline
Actually, there has only been one attempt at a home-grown Scottish long haul airline (if one disregards Adam Thompson's Caledonian which although it operated very successfully from PIK was nevertheless a LGW based carrier) - and that was Randolph Fields' Highland Express. Their primary downfall was that they used a single old, poorly maintained B747-100 which kept breaking down. Single aircraft airlines just don't work - especially in that sort of market.
If a country is to be seen as a serious contender in the global marketplace, it must be readily accessible to both visitors and investors. Even the Isle of Man (Manx), Channel Islands (Aurigny) and Wales (Air Wales) have their own, home-grown, carriers - Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.
Scotland continues to move towards full independence within a federal Europe, and I would therefore assert that yes, it is extremely important for it to have a locally owned and based airline!
Operations via a third country
Which is why Scotland needs its own airline - as I said, the hassle factor puts people off coming there: and that applies as much to investors as it does to tourists.
Scottish Executive
CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier that will probably pull out of the market after a year or so anyway.
The provision of government funds does not necessarily signify that the operation would be government controlled - look at the subsidies provided to various essential air operations such as the Highlands and Islands, Scilly Isles, etc.
Investment in an airline by the Scottish Executive via Scottish Enterprise will generate jobs and stimulate inward investment - its something that's good for Scotland plc.
No West Coast USA - Scotland market
I disagree completely with that - the 1996 CAA O&D stats show that there is indeed a very viable market to the West Coast of the USA. In addition, direct services would stimulate traffic from that area (the LA basin has a population 50% greater than the whole of Scotland!) - especially for golfing and other specialist vacations.
My point was that neither GLA or EDI have extendable runways - and that PIK remains the only true long-haul airport in Scotland.
BAA
First, bear in mind that a very sizeable number of passengers (in excess of 50%) do not use London as an O&D point. In other words, LGW and LHR (especially the latter) are simply hub airports. As with several of the US megahubs, they could be in the middle of nowhere and it wouldn't affect the passengers. A hub in Scotland would make a great deal of sense as it would alleviate ATC congestion in the London TMA and again provide a substantial number of jobs. In the case of passengers headed to northern Europe from the Eastern USA, it would also have the effect of cutting their overall journey time substantially.
The monopoly position of the BAA is something that needs to be closely investigated. They control pretty much every major international airport in the UK with the exception of Manchester (and BHX if you regard that as a major international airport). In particular, they have an effective monopoly (with the exception of LTN) on major airports in SE England. Is this really acceptable?
BA
As the UK's 'national airline' shouldn't they have a duty to provide effective, direct service to Scotland? Not to them, anyway! They would far rather have pax leave their homes in EDI or GLA and fly over them again a few hours later having transited through LHR or LGW having been able to screw them for a few hundred pounds more thanks to the 'sum of sector' fare rules affecting UK-US flights from those airports under Bermuda II.
BA has enough interline agreements in place with carriers beside AA to allow the feed of pax to/from their gateway destinations, so that argument doesn't wash, I'm afraid!
In any case, the 'sum of sectors' rules would not apply to flights originating from airports other than LHR and LGW - so passenger convenience and cost saving is once again being put second to BA's quest for operational efficiency and profit. (And as a BA shareholder I'd applaud them for that, btw - but it does tend to negate their position as the UK's flag carrier!)
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My information on the Continental plans were that they feel that Gla and Edi are too close to have flights leaving daily from both airports!!! As the Gla flight has been a massive success, with a 40% increase in loads this summer, they were considering using a bigger plane all year round!!? It had also been suggested that they may start a new flight from gla to another airport!!!?
It also has to be remembered that Americian keep also being quoted that they wish to go all year round from gla, supposdely that cannot get the slot they are looking for from gla or the best landing price!! Thought if the BA/AA marriage happens then they may codeshare on this flight and it may happen. Is it me or does anybody else thing that all Joe Curry writes about is cr@p about Edi being this and that and is always negative about Gla, a little biased to the east coast or a little jealous of Gla!!!!!!!!!!
It also has to be remembered that Americian keep also being quoted that they wish to go all year round from gla, supposdely that cannot get the slot they are looking for from gla or the best landing price!! Thought if the BA/AA marriage happens then they may codeshare on this flight and it may happen. Is it me or does anybody else thing that all Joe Curry writes about is cr@p about Edi being this and that and is always negative about Gla, a little biased to the east coast or a little jealous of Gla!!!!!!!!!!
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Guvnor - I was under the impression that Scotland was still part of the United Kingdom which is also known as Great Britain. Therefore British Airways is the national airline of Scotland as well as England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I'm certain you will find (using your stunning inside contacts) that it is not economically viable to fly frequent scheduled long haul wide bodies from Scottish airports. If it was then some smart marketing type would already be doing it. BA don't make people fly to the South because of the prestige of flying from LHR - they do it because it makes more money. An airline is a registered company, not a registered charity - they have a responsibility to their shareholders and employees to act as an on-going concern and not as a vehicle for flights of fancy.
I'm certain you will find (using your stunning inside contacts) that it is not economically viable to fly frequent scheduled long haul wide bodies from Scottish airports. If it was then some smart marketing type would already be doing it. BA don't make people fly to the South because of the prestige of flying from LHR - they do it because it makes more money. An airline is a registered company, not a registered charity - they have a responsibility to their shareholders and employees to act as an on-going concern and not as a vehicle for flights of fancy.
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hold the nose and trim - don't forget that The Scotsman is EDI based and can therefore be expected to have an east coast outlook on life; whereas The Herald is GLA based and is more 'westcentric'. I agree though that Joe Curry seems to think that Scotland extends no further west than Stirling!
You want it when? - I'm well aware of that: at least as far as it pertains to BA (see the final paragraph in my last post). The problem is that BA seems to centre its long haul services out of London which is great for the south east but does little for the rest of the country.
I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work.
BTW, according to my passport, it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
You want it when? - I'm well aware of that: at least as far as it pertains to BA (see the final paragraph in my last post). The problem is that BA seems to centre its long haul services out of London which is great for the south east but does little for the rest of the country.
I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work.
BTW, according to my passport, it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
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>>Is it me or does anybody else thing that all Joe Curry writes about is cr@p about Edi being this and that and is always negative about Gla, a little biased to the east coast or a little jealous of Gla <<
Hold the nose and trim? Can I smell paranoia?
Jealous of an airport that underperforms on
every route EDI is allowed to compete on?
I don't think so.
Hold the nose and trim? Can I smell paranoia?
Jealous of an airport that underperforms on
every route EDI is allowed to compete on?
I don't think so.
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We shouldn't allow this to turn into an East-West slagging match.
However, having worked at both GLA & EDI in my time, I think that we should remember that GLA has been the only airport in Scotland to offer year round transatlantic flights for quite a few years now.
Why? - Could it possibly be better facilities, greater transport links to West/Central Scotland, larger poulation (bigger potential market, etc)& Industry.
Things have quite obviously changed over on the East Coast - A new terminal (dominated by BA!), more importantly the Scottish Executive is now based there, and the attitudes have become that they think that there should be greater links to the outside world, further than BRU/DUB/FRA, etc.
When AC/AA/CO, etc, decided to operate from GLA they obviously did their homework and found that this was where the greatest potential market is, and not EDI.
Joe - I have to agree with you - most of the flights operating from EDI are busier than some of those operating from GLA. easyJet & GO are really doing quite well. The old saying 'Short Arms, Deep Pockets', does seem quite appropriate doesn't it?
However, having worked at both GLA & EDI in my time, I think that we should remember that GLA has been the only airport in Scotland to offer year round transatlantic flights for quite a few years now.
Why? - Could it possibly be better facilities, greater transport links to West/Central Scotland, larger poulation (bigger potential market, etc)& Industry.
Things have quite obviously changed over on the East Coast - A new terminal (dominated by BA!), more importantly the Scottish Executive is now based there, and the attitudes have become that they think that there should be greater links to the outside world, further than BRU/DUB/FRA, etc.
When AC/AA/CO, etc, decided to operate from GLA they obviously did their homework and found that this was where the greatest potential market is, and not EDI.
Joe - I have to agree with you - most of the flights operating from EDI are busier than some of those operating from GLA. easyJet & GO are really doing quite well. The old saying 'Short Arms, Deep Pockets', does seem quite appropriate doesn't it?
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The Guvnor, are you sure you are in the airline business? Your knowledge of the Scottish aviation scene is one of ignorance I feel.
<<Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.>>
Firstly, Scotairways is not 'really Suckling and based out of CBG'. It has moved on in recent years and is now a major player in Scotland, and will continue to grow with new routes. Next month will see 2 new destinations from INV. Jets soon to be on the flightline, and a new head office north of the border.
Loganair is NOT part of BRAL, not for a long time now (1997).
Highland Airways are a scruffy little outfit, hardly worth a mention in the scheme of things, and they are not a scheduled carrier in anycase.
If you intend to be a player in Scotland, try to learn some history, and knowledge of the current scene. Remember, people read this site and may believe you, scary thought I know, but it might just happen!
BTW, I do not work for any of the above, and I managed to get the info. Mind you, I am trying like mad to get into one of them.
<<Scotland has Scot Airways which is really still Suckling and based out of CBG; Highland Airways which is part of Air Atlantique and Loganair which is part of BRAL.>>
Firstly, Scotairways is not 'really Suckling and based out of CBG'. It has moved on in recent years and is now a major player in Scotland, and will continue to grow with new routes. Next month will see 2 new destinations from INV. Jets soon to be on the flightline, and a new head office north of the border.
Loganair is NOT part of BRAL, not for a long time now (1997).
Highland Airways are a scruffy little outfit, hardly worth a mention in the scheme of things, and they are not a scheduled carrier in anycase.
If you intend to be a player in Scotland, try to learn some history, and knowledge of the current scene. Remember, people read this site and may believe you, scary thought I know, but it might just happen!
BTW, I do not work for any of the above, and I managed to get the info. Mind you, I am trying like mad to get into one of them.
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Island Air - I concede that I messed up over the ownership of Loganair (owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland at one point, btw) - but do you really claim that Roy and Merle Sucking are not running Scot Airways out of CBG? Sure, Ann Gloag and Brian Soutar might be the principal investors but the day-to-day operational running is most certainly not out of Perth!
As for Highland Airways - don't knock them. A little bird tells me that they are the preferred choice for the Essential Air Service operations to the Highlands and Islands - and btw I understand that PIK will be their main base, thanks to a deal with Ayrshire Health Authority. In fact, if you're looking for a job, they're probably your best bet!
As for Highland Airways - don't knock them. A little bird tells me that they are the preferred choice for the Essential Air Service operations to the Highlands and Islands - and btw I understand that PIK will be their main base, thanks to a deal with Ayrshire Health Authority. In fact, if you're looking for a job, they're probably your best bet!
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Guv,
I still can't understand why you wouldn't want to operate from GLA to the US as opposed to PIK. You might pay a little more in landing charges, but would use far better facilities and would have more chance of picking up premium traffic, also mabye some transfer pax as well.
To the boys from the east: Glasgow has competition from our neighbours on the west coast that you don't have to worry about. And can we just run throught the total pax numbers again guys?
I still can't understand why you wouldn't want to operate from GLA to the US as opposed to PIK. You might pay a little more in landing charges, but would use far better facilities and would have more chance of picking up premium traffic, also mabye some transfer pax as well.
To the boys from the east: Glasgow has competition from our neighbours on the west coast that you don't have to worry about. And can we just run throught the total pax numbers again guys?
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The Guvnor says...
>>CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier<<
and in a later post
>>I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work. <<
Now I understand where he's coming from. He wants money from the Scottish Executive to run his airline.
While my heart might love to see a Scottish intercontinental airline my head says "nae chance"
The CO flights from GLA and EDI will serve all of Scotland. The market growth is sufficient to support double daily and by splitting the flights between both GLA and EDI both main population centres are seen to have service. It is not as if nobody from GLA will travel on a plane out of EDI.
[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]
>>CO have made it clear to the Scottish Executive that they want money from them if the EDI service is to be launched. My view is that that money would be better spent on establishing a home-grown airline rather than giving it to an American megacarrier<<
and in a later post
>>I (and many others) disagree that there is not a market for frequent services out of Scotland - at the moment you have nearly a million Scots a year travelling down to England to fly to the States (extrapolated from CAA O&D 1996). I've spent the last 18 months on putting together a business plan for such an operation, and believe me, it can - and will - work. <<
Now I understand where he's coming from. He wants money from the Scottish Executive to run his airline.
While my heart might love to see a Scottish intercontinental airline my head says "nae chance"
The CO flights from GLA and EDI will serve all of Scotland. The market growth is sufficient to support double daily and by splitting the flights between both GLA and EDI both main population centres are seen to have service. It is not as if nobody from GLA will travel on a plane out of EDI.
[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: John MacCalman ]
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Actually, that's just one of the avenues we're exploring at present - but I do feel strongly that if there is cash going then it should rather be invested in a 'home grown' solution as I said earlier!
The CAA's own O&D stats, coupled with Freddie Laker's 'Forgotten Man' principle, shows that there are about a dozen transatlntic routes that could be operated viably from Scotland using domestic traffic alone. Add to that additional connecting traffic if a first-rate service is offered (Lauda Air is a good example of an airline based in a country with a similar population profile as that of Scotland - one where pax will come from all over Europe and elsewhere to fly their long haul services).
By definition, if CO is going for the business traveller, then a daily frequency is required at minimum - which means that daily services will be operated from both EDI and GLA, using B757s. As you'e doubtless well aware, pax are not wildly happy about flying across the pond in a narrowbody; and still less with one with two engines. As far as most Scottish pax that I've spoken to are concerned, the B757 is the aircraft they fly on to LHR! That said, Icelandair do pretty well with them and they have had a relatively clean safety record.
By the way, John - you didn't answer my question about whether or not you were handling the PR for CO!
I look forward to your response as to why there is "nae chance" that a home-grown airline could work.
The CAA's own O&D stats, coupled with Freddie Laker's 'Forgotten Man' principle, shows that there are about a dozen transatlntic routes that could be operated viably from Scotland using domestic traffic alone. Add to that additional connecting traffic if a first-rate service is offered (Lauda Air is a good example of an airline based in a country with a similar population profile as that of Scotland - one where pax will come from all over Europe and elsewhere to fly their long haul services).
By definition, if CO is going for the business traveller, then a daily frequency is required at minimum - which means that daily services will be operated from both EDI and GLA, using B757s. As you'e doubtless well aware, pax are not wildly happy about flying across the pond in a narrowbody; and still less with one with two engines. As far as most Scottish pax that I've spoken to are concerned, the B757 is the aircraft they fly on to LHR! That said, Icelandair do pretty well with them and they have had a relatively clean safety record.
By the way, John - you didn't answer my question about whether or not you were handling the PR for CO!
I look forward to your response as to why there is "nae chance" that a home-grown airline could work.