EDI-EWR "It's a sure thing".

[parkfell]

Highland are planning to operate the Stornoway/Benbecula service from September

[hold the nose and trim]

Mr Curry, Jealous of what, are'nt we getting very petty!!!!!
I think I will have to put the record correct with your good biased self!! Iam a 757 driver who has flown all over the world and have been based at many airports, iam ENGLISH and has recently being based at Glasgow and so do not take partake in anything to do with the Glasgow, Edinburgh rivalry. From your disgrace of a website and also your posts within pprune it becomes apparent that you are a very twisited man who is only interested in fueling the rivalry. For a person to have a whole website devoted to slagging glasgow off is very sad and even sadder when you actually look at some of your facts which you use for this. If you go to the unofficial glasgow airport site, i dont see the site owner using his website to slag of Edinburgh, a much more dignified and informative site!!! Now to some facts, as i work out of both Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as other uk airports and I think it could be said that iam better placed than yourself to comment on the two airports, I take it from your profile and website that you do not work in avaition and that your website and bitterness is a hobby? Glasgow at the moment yearly has over 1.3million more passengers than Edinburgh, Scheduled traffic for both airports are about equal in the places that they serve, though Edi have more frequencies on some flights and Gla has more on others such as Ezy to Belfast for Gla and Go to Bristol at Edi!!! You seem to forget that Glasgow also has competition from Prestwick on the London flights and I take it that it is these figures you use when saying that Edi does better, but as another ppruner said lets compare total pax numbers!!!!! Charter wise you do not have a leg to stand on and never will and this alone means that you will never be Scotlands number one airport which for some reason you crave!!! You keep mentioning that Bmi have the Route License for Edi-Toronto but you seem to forget that they also have a Gla-Toronto Route License as well, and do you know what other airlines have transatlantic Route License for Glasgow, many, but at this moment they do not use them. You also never mention American or Icelandic's services out of Glasgow which from press reports are big success. You claim Glasgow is in decline, how come the Charter market is bigger than ever, Transatlantic flight are expanding and loads are increasing, more and more low cost operators are opening up new routes, PIA are due to start a new route, Emirates are also considering starting a route, Continental are extreamly happy with their route and could expand and Fedex are due to start international cargo flights. Glasgow has passed 7 million passengers for the first time, so please explain how Glasgow is in freefall!!!? And on your comments on Ezy or Go bases comming to Edi rather than Glasgow if you actually worked in the industry you would know that they will have small bases at both airports and if they start new routes they will start them at both airports as has happened, the only thing which may vary would be frequencies or if the route was a special route say set up for the parliament such as maybe Brussels or Geneva!!!
I think you should just go back to your wesite and use it for your Edinburgh Airport propaganda and keep this site free for more formative information written by people who may actually know the truth!!!! >>>Hold the nose and trim? Can I smell paranoia?
Jealous of an airport that underperforms on
every route EDI is allowed to compete on?<<<

" A Very very sad statement, do you have nothing to do else with you life than talk about someone being jealous of another airport, get real, an airport, i can think of a thousand more thing important to me than Glasgow or Edinburgh Airport!!!!!"


Sorry can somehow fly areoplanes, but cannot for the life of me spell!!!!

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

[The Guvnor]

So what's the url for Joe Curry's website then?

[hold the nose and trim]

There you go Guv!!!! Go to the page on edi future!!!

Joe Curry's web page

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: hold the nose and trim ]

[John MacCalman]

>>By the way, John - you didn't answer my question about whether or not you were handling the PR for CO! <<

No. They have a very good chap doing that and he doesn't need my help in screwing things up.

I am happy to put my head above the parapet in this forum and use my real name. Those who know me know what I do for a living which includes covering aviation matters as a journalist. I come to this forum to learn
and to contribute where I can.

>>I look forward to your response as to why there is "nae chance" that a home-grown airline could work. <<

Nothing wrong with a home grown airline on its own. Problem is in the global marketplace you must have major representation through alliances and partneships to survive.

There is not enough point to point traffic between Scotland and any single USA city to justify a daily scheduled service as BA discovered.

With regard to the 757 being appropriate the Business Cabin is configured 2 x 2 and gives no feeling of confined "shuttle" space. As for the back of the bus (2 x 3) they will go where the fares are cheapest so they are not so concerned about legroom although they should be with DVT problems.

The only problem with the 757 is no cargo space. I reckon Continental will upgrade to a 767 on one of the routes whenever they get the chance so they can take advantage of the masses of cargo which currently has to be trucked to MAN or further South.

If the AA/BA partership does get the go-ahead, and it should, then we will see the AA 767 working year round as a BA/AA code share between GLA and ORD.

United will also re-examine the route possibilities with their Star Alliance partners and in particular AC and bmi.

[The Guvnor]

From Joe Curry's web site (which includes a most interesting survey of passenger preferences of GLA and EDI, btw) here's the main reason - in my opinion - that I don't think that EDI as it stands is a viable long haul Scottish gateway:

EDINBURGH EGPH 5557N 0322W 135FT 06/24 8400FT
06 TORA 8400FT ASDA/TODA 8600FT LDA 7700FT
24 TORA 8400FT ASDA 8600FT TODA 9865FT LDA 7700FT

John MacCalman - so you don't think that there are sufficient passengers to justify direct services, do you?

The following figures are extrapolated from the CAA's last O&D study of Scottish airports:

NYC area 127,609
LAX area 76,886
BOS area 69,923
MCO area 169,088
BWI area 51,288
MIA area 35,196
YYZ area 32,615

If we apply the Laker 'Forgotten Man' principle (which updated would probably be known as the Ryanair Principle) you can, at the very least, triple those numbers; and you can increase them further through the removal of the 'hassle factor' for incoming passengers that want direct services.

I do agree with you that these days one (normally) needs alliances and interline partnerships to survive. But not always. Look at the low cost models: Ryanair, easyJet, Go, Southwest, WestJet etc - none of them interline, or are members of any alliance. An informal tie-up with carriers such as those would be as effective as membership of Star or OneWorld - both of whom have a number of members (including airlines like bmi british midland) which are questioning their viability.

As far as cargo is concerned, not only does the B757 have no space but the B767 because of its smaller cross-section when compared to the Airbuses, B747, DC10, L1011 (ie you can't get two LD3s in side by side) is not a very efficient cargo hauler either. However, Polar Air Cargo has a pretty successful operation going out of PIK - as indeed does Air France and Cargolux.

Email me (addy in profile) and I'd be happy to debate this with you over a few beers!

[Joe Curry]

>>Joe - I have to agree with you - most of the flights operating from EDI are busier than some of those operating from GLA. easyJet & GO are really doing quite well.
The old saying 'Short Arms, DeepPockets', does seem quite appropriate doesn't it?<<

Budget carriers seem to have found a whole new market, how many of these 'new' pax would
not have travelled if the price had not been right?.

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: Joe Curry ]

[Joe Curry]

>>If you go to the unofficial glasgow airport site, i dont see the site owner using his website to slag of Edinburgh,<<

My site is critical of BAA Glasgow, not the
city of Glasgow.

[Captain Rodders]

Hold the nose and trim

OK Joe is biased, no arguments there, but the paranoia is exhibited in your post.

By the way, according to CAA international route analysis for 2000 (the last full year available), the Glasgow charter market declined by 1.45%.

Going away to dig out more figures.

HZH

[John MacCalman]

Hi HZH,

Got a URL for getting these figures. Or does it costa da money for da info?

[Deeko01]

Island,

Be very careful what u say about operators such as Highland Airways, unless you are prepared to back up what you are saying, I work very closely with Highland and they are doing very well at the moment thank you very much and have just added another J31 to the fleet, and have a contract to fly BAe Systems pax GLA-FZO mon-thu and airtours crew GLA-MME-LPL fri plus sun, not too mention the INV-SYY run so not doin too badly.

Guvnor,

Dont know where u heard about PIK being HWY's preferred base but I can tell u it wont be!

Havent heard a squeak from TSC, ACA, BA or CKT about using the L1011 in and out of GLA and I know some of those flights would have been if not MTOW very close too it so cant understand what the problem is.

Hold the nose Down,

Here Here chap agree with you 100 percent

Joe Curry,

Get a Life worrying about which is the better airport, I think you should be concerned with the BAA EDI if anyone and tell them to put some parallel taxiways in full length and maybe position the tower where they can see everything first, howvever I really can think of better things to concern my life!

Gentleman,

Instead of some of the negative coments about which airport is best be it GLA, EDI or PIK lets just be happy that an airline like CO are interested in making Air Travel from Scotland as easy as possible, would you really rather they done like UA, NW or BA on transatlantic routes.

But I certainly believe PIK is a sleeping giant which is slowly but surely coming to life and Guv I dont know if you are for real or not, if you are then fair play but you know the facilities at the airport are not to standard for the public for that type of service, fair enough for ryanair n low frills n all.

[The Guvnor]

Deeko01 - Following data from Lockheed (who presumably know what they are talking about):

Takeoff Field Length (takeoff weight limit, FAA rule, sea level, 84 F/29.6 C)

L1011-1 8,400 ft
L1011-100 11,240 ft
L1011-200 8,000 ft
L1011-500 9,400 ft** **504,000 lb TOGW, FAA rules

CKT had the -100s, which require the greatest length. No way is GLA longer than PIK! (Fair dos, though - how often does GLA hit 29.6 deg C?)

As for PIK's facilities what can I say ... they have a nicely redone arrivals area (with a cocked-up baggage belt that has people queuing five deep in domestic, although international appears to have been done OK); but as for the rest of the airport ... if anyone wants to make a remake of that Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton classic movie The VIPs then PIK is the place to do it!

PS - have you seen their manual gate announcement board in the departures lounge???

[GustyOrange]

Hold the nose and trim.

What info do you have on PIA starting at GLA.

I've not head about this.

Cheers

[whatshouldiuse]

Hi all;


I think we're missing the big picture here. Why would anybody want to fly to Newark? It makes Brixton...and that's he jail, look like the Garden Spot of the U.K.

Newark is a truly deadly city, both literaly and figuratively. Not to mention the $40 + cab ride to Manhattan.

A truly nasty, miserable place....and I could go on about the really bad points if you wish!!


Whatshouldiuse


null

[Captain Rodders]

Right, if we have all stopped throwing our toys out of the pram, let's have a look at the recent past.

Edinburgh Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 2538000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 3891960, Charter 269377
2000 - Scheduled 5096995, Charter 400701

Glasgow Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 4669000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 4038496, Charter 1973295
2000 - Scheduled 4817687, Charter 2106529

Prestwick Terminal Passengers:
1992 - Total 11000 (rounded)
1997 - Scheduled 526504, Charter 40834
2000 - Scheduled 810228, Charter 94630

Glasgow is king as far as charter traffic, no question about that with neither other airport making any significant inroads into the lead, but note how slow the growth is. However, if the A77 can be sorted, and the new PIK owners get their act together with the tour operators, Glasgow could start to be squeezed in that direction.

On the scheduled front, the picture is much different with growth much slower at Glasgow compared with Edinburgh both in actual and percentage terms and way behind Prestwick in terms of percentage (albeit from a very low base). The growth at Glasgow would be even slower in relation to Edinburgh and Prestwick if it were not for some leisure routes now being included in the scheduled totals (DP to Tenerife, Malaga, Faro, Cyprus etc).

As Ryanair expand at PIK it will put pressure on the scheduled traffic at Glasgow which will have to grow by means of attracting routes which do not interest FR. That could be where the likes of PIA and Emirates come in to the equation.

Returning to topic, if you were looking to start or increase a service where would you consider in terms of existing scheduled traffic and projected growth?

Continental may need financial inducement to start the EDI-EWR service but they may well find rich pickings on the route, only time will tell. Perhaps we should park this topic until 2003 and review the figures then.

On other points raised, I agree that EasyJet and Go will set up at both Edinburgh and Glasgow but may target different routes to a degree with Edinburgh concentrating on the European key cities (Barcelona, Madrid, Nice, Milan etc.) and Glasgow more towards, but not exclusively, the leisure routes (Majorca, Faro, Ibiza, Malaga, etc.) It's all a case of matching the route to the relevant demand.

There is enough room for all Central Scotland Airports but it must be accepted that not all routes will be served from all airports. Airlines will only start a route if they feel that it will have a commercial return, they are not charities.

All figures courtesy of CAA, airports listed alphabetically to avoid favouritism.

HZH

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

[Carbon Life Form]

FYI GOV,

Our oldest 757 is seven years old and oldest
767 less than a year.

I don't think most passengers care, or even notice how many engines their aircraft has.
They do care about nonstop, convenient, good
service.

A Continental employee.

[Rinky]

Ladies, Ladies!!
Let's stop bickering about who is the greatest Scottish airport and address the important issue. This is Scotland's best chance to improve her position in the international aviation arena. Both EDI and GLA have their role to play. GLA with its larger population base and EDI with its capital status and extensive business potential. What worries me is that we are relying on foreign airlines eg CO to set up overseas direct links where our own so called 'flag carrriers' stand by and watch. The forthcoming summit on 26th September on Scottish direct links should aim to have a domestic carrier fully committed to developing Scotlands airports links and BAA giving us a fair position removing us finally from South East of England dominated investment.

[John MacCalman]

we are relying on foreign airlines eg CO to set up overseas direct links where our own so called 'flag carrriers' stand by and watch.

Until our so called flag carriers are allowed to partner with an airline to take their passengers beyond a US gateway that's all they can do.

[The Guvnor]

Whilst I together with a couple of my colleagues will be attending the conference on the 26th September, we don't expect too much to come of it. Helen Liddell and George Foulkes have no real decision making powers in this area - they have no control or direct input into either the CAA or DETL - and it seems to be a bit of a power struggle between the Scottish Office and the Scottish Executive with the latter actually doing something!

[The Guvnor]

More on ScotAirways from today's Business AM:

Stagecoach founders keep the faith despite ScotAirways'losses
by Paul Rogerson
Published: 00:05 GMT, Aug 22, 2001

THE founders of Stagecoach, Brian Souter and Ann Gloag, have dipped into their personal
fortunes to bankroll the expansion of ScotAirways, the private airline which they part-own.

Last December the multi-millionaire siblings each advanced unsecured loans of £375,000 to the company and eight weeks ago injected the bulk of an extra £2.5m to bolster ScotAirways' strategy of
building a regional business airline.

New accounts show that ScotAirways Group made a pretax loss of £2.6m on turnover of £30.8m for a 16-month period to the end of December 2000.

Yesterday, Mr Souter was upbeat about the new venture's performance. He said: "There is a
substantial investment in our routes. This is a good result for a start-up airline."

The managing director, Roy Suckling, said the Cambridge-based company had been hit by the
pound's weakness against the dollar. "Aeroplanes and their components are sold in dollars but, unlike Virgin and BA, we don't receive any of our income in the same currency," he said.

The company's aim is to develop into a £100m enterprise by exploiting its specialist niche in the business community. But Mr Suckling said profitability was not yet an overriding concern for ScotAirways, which has only four shareholders.

He said: "Last year and the first half of this year have been about developing the business. As a private company we don't have to please the City. The aim is to establish a foundation for growth in the longer term."

ScotAirways is likely to break even at an operating level this year and move into profit in 2002, Mr Suckling said. Revenues are expected to top £33m this year, up from £12m in 1998.

Passenger numbers are expected to total about 250,000, up from 110,000 three years ago but below the 330,000 forecast by Mr Suckling in January.

The company's rapid growth has been fuelled by the success of its Scotland to London City services, which began in 1999.

Last week, a further spur to growth came when the company announced that from 10 September it will begin flying from Inverness to London City and Amsterdam.

Next month the company will also increase from five to seven the number of return flights it operates from Southampton to Amsterdam.

Mr Suckling confirmed that the company was considering other routes in Europe, including
Scandinavia.

"We're taking one step at a time," the former pilot said. "There's no point in expanding just for the sake of it."

[email protected]

Link: www.scotairways.co.uk

ownership Four shareholders

Roy Suckling founded the company that is now ScotAirways in 1983. He and his wife, Merlyn, own 51%, while Mr Souter and Ms Gloag own 49%.

The Stagecoach pair invested about £5m in 1999, enabling what was then Suckling Airways to rebrand.

The airline runs routes to London City from Dundee, Glasgow and Edinburgh. It starts a service from Inverness next month.