Swiss safety "incident" over London on 13 March
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Swiss safety "incident" over London on 13 March
Firstly, my sincere apologies if I have posted this to the incorrect thread. I do not work in the airline industry - but wanted to ask the professionals on this forum their advice regarding obtaining some information.
On Thursday 13 March I was a passenger on Swiss flight LX333 from Zurich to London Heathrow.(dep 15.35)
During the descent toward London, the pilot had to make a sudden and very rapid ascent.
Once the aircraft had levelled off again, the pilot explained the move had been executed becasue he was unsure if another aircraft was still climbing or had levelled out. He reassured us all was ok -but said the move had been made as we would have been within 300m of each other.
As it was quite an unsettling experience (at least for the group of passengers who I was sat with!), we would like to find out more on what actually took place on Thursday.
Can anyone advise me if a report is likely to be filed on the incident - and if so, are these available for public viewing?
Or...as I expect....the manouver that took place was 'routine' due to the conditions/situation at the time - and therefore no 'report' would be necessary.
Thank-you
On Thursday 13 March I was a passenger on Swiss flight LX333 from Zurich to London Heathrow.(dep 15.35)
During the descent toward London, the pilot had to make a sudden and very rapid ascent.
Once the aircraft had levelled off again, the pilot explained the move had been executed becasue he was unsure if another aircraft was still climbing or had levelled out. He reassured us all was ok -but said the move had been made as we would have been within 300m of each other.
As it was quite an unsettling experience (at least for the group of passengers who I was sat with!), we would like to find out more on what actually took place on Thursday.
Can anyone advise me if a report is likely to be filed on the incident - and if so, are these available for public viewing?
Or...as I expect....the manouver that took place was 'routine' due to the conditions/situation at the time - and therefore no 'report' would be necessary.
Thank-you
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Darnicmax,
if there was indeed an infringement of separation, then a report would probably be made to the AAIB by one or both of the pilots involved. the AAIB would then investigate and publish their facts in time on their website. this may take several months.
if there was indeed an infringement of separation, then a report would probably be made to the AAIB by one or both of the pilots involved. the AAIB would then investigate and publish their facts in time on their website. this may take several months.
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Most likely this was a maneuver because the Traffic Collision and Avoidance System told the pilots to do so. It's a ladies voice which tells the pilot to descend or to climb in order to avoid a collision. The other airplane is supposed to do the opposite.
This is a perfectly safe manouvre and, although it's rough on the passengers, shouldn't worry you at all.
By the way: Such a maneuver requires the pilot to fill out a report. But unless the two airplanes hit each other, the aviation authorities will only summarize such incidents.
This is a perfectly safe manouvre and, although it's rough on the passengers, shouldn't worry you at all.
By the way: Such a maneuver requires the pilot to fill out a report. But unless the two airplanes hit each other, the aviation authorities will only summarize such incidents.
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"although it's rough on the passengers"???? a properly executed RA maneuver is practically imperceptible to the passengers....least in an airPLANE dont know about an airBUS
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Come on IRONBUTT
If a RA occurs in a high density area with lot of chatting on the frequ (as usual London TMA) there is only limited time to execute the RA. So, if you are just a little slow, which may happen, you realy have to go after the "green stripe".
And I am sure, that will be noticed defintly by the passengers.
Nothing to do with the AIRBUS itself.
And to every passenger: be assured, better a little unpleseant manouvre in the air, instead a manouvre into the coffin!
Off topic, but could someone imagine to have "critical matters of safety" for example questionable medical actions of doctors, discussed in the public?
AVIATION SAFETY is available to the public on a forum like this one!
Never heared anything for example from hospitals or similar institutions?!
If a RA occurs in a high density area with lot of chatting on the frequ (as usual London TMA) there is only limited time to execute the RA. So, if you are just a little slow, which may happen, you realy have to go after the "green stripe".
And I am sure, that will be noticed defintly by the passengers.
Nothing to do with the AIRBUS itself.
And to every passenger: be assured, better a little unpleseant manouvre in the air, instead a manouvre into the coffin!
Off topic, but could someone imagine to have "critical matters of safety" for example questionable medical actions of doctors, discussed in the public?
AVIATION SAFETY is available to the public on a forum like this one!
Never heared anything for example from hospitals or similar institutions?!
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darnicmax - *if* this manoeuvre was made in response to a TCAS (mentioned earlier) system RA (Resolution Advisory) it most certainly is reportable under the UK's Mandatory Occurrence Reporting scheme. However, as others have said, the manoeuvre is safe and well practiced.
VSB via OL - I belive the matter of an airprox would be invetigated by the UK Airprox Board, rather than the AAIB.
VSB via OL - I belive the matter of an airprox would be invetigated by the UK Airprox Board, rather than the AAIB.
Critical safety matters
Off topic, but could someone imagine to have "critical matters of safety" for example questionable medical actions of doctors, discussed in the public?
AVIATION SAFETY is available to the public on a forum like this one!
Never heared anything for example from hospitals or similar institutions?!
AVIATION SAFETY is available to the public on a forum like this one!
Never heared anything for example from hospitals or similar institutions?!
Question is not why we do it in aviation, look at the incredible safety record that keeps getting better, but why this is not done in medicine and road transport.
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"but said the move had been made as we would have been within 300m of each other. "
Is 300m not similar to 1000ft eg standard separation????
I would be extremly surprised if it was 300m laterally!
Is 300m not similar to 1000ft eg standard separation????
I would be extremly surprised if it was 300m laterally!
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the pilot explained the move had been executed becasue he was unsure if another aircraft was still climbing or had levelled out
I'm guessing by this the pilot is referring to the combined rate of closure between the aircraft you were on and another aircraft and what his TCAS told him to do. As the TCAS system works on a time based rate of closure between aircraft (predicting a kind of "Time-to-go to collision"), it may have projected that there was going to be a conflict, hence the instruction to climb. The other aircraft would have (hopefully
) been cleared to an altitude 1000 feet (300 metres) below your flight, but if they were climbing at say 2000 feet per minute and the aircraft you were on was descending at 2000 feet per minute as well, you've got 4000 fpm closure. Depending upon how close the aircraft were, that certainly could be enough to generate what is known as a Resolution Advisory (RA), which is where the TCAS tells the pilot to climb (or descend).
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Question is not why we do it in aviation, look at the incredible safety record that keeps getting better, but why this is not done in medicine and road transport.
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Reportyourlevel
Airproxes are routinely notified to both UKAB and AAIB. You are right in stating that most are dealt with by the UKAB but the AAIB can (and has in the past) take on the investigation depending on the perceived severity of the circumstances.
Airproxes are routinely notified to both UKAB and AAIB. You are right in stating that most are dealt with by the UKAB but the AAIB can (and has in the past) take on the investigation depending on the perceived severity of the circumstances.
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Rough
The TCAS is the last instance of escape - the last resort if all else in the ATC system has failed. When you get an RA you follow it and if you are too slow to react, the TCAS tells you in no uncertain terms to increase the rate.
This can certainly be "rough" - just depends on the case. It does however keep a lot of people in two aeroplanes alive who might not otherwise have been.
This can certainly be "rough" - just depends on the case. It does however keep a lot of people in two aeroplanes alive who might not otherwise have been.
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If a report has been filed, it is likely to appear here at some time in the future....
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...d=7&newstype=a
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...d=7&newstype=a
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Without knowing all the details, this sounds like a TCAS RA which has been explained by other posts on here. If it was a 'nuisance' advisory (as your pilot said they were unsure if another aircraft had levelled) this is usually caused by an aircraft climbing or descending very rapidly to the level above or below another aircraft (1000' is the standard separation). The TCAS sees the rapid closure, and as it's independant of both the autopilot and the pilot's minds, doesn't know that the climb or descent will shortly be stopped at a safe level. For this reason, crews are encouraged not to make very rapid climb or descent when approaching their cleared level. A TCAS RA will result in paperwork being filled in, probably from both crew and ATC, but as long as separation was never lost or likely to have been lost, it's unlikely you'll ever get to see the details. Think of this situation like a go-around just before landing: it's an uncomfortable feeling and it's very unusual....but it's a standard aviation manoeuvre, practised by the crews on a regular basis, and is designed to ensure safety.
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That's exactly right, NS.
Periodically crews are reminded to limit ROD / ROC to 1000fpm max during the last 1000ft of descent / climb.
What can happen though, is that crew tries hard to make a fixed point at a given FL /Alt after leaving (or having to leave) the initiation rather late. They then see one minute for the last 2000ft and bingo - into the RA zone they go.
Theoretically it can be fixed by good comm with ATC but it gets kinda busy round London...
Periodically crews are reminded to limit ROD / ROC to 1000fpm max during the last 1000ft of descent / climb.
What can happen though, is that crew tries hard to make a fixed point at a given FL /Alt after leaving (or having to leave) the initiation rather late. They then see one minute for the last 2000ft and bingo - into the RA zone they go.
Theoretically it can be fixed by good comm with ATC but it gets kinda busy round London...
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I would like to say thank-you for the responses and the clear explanations given to my question.
I understand considerably more than I did a few days ago - and I appreciate the openess and willingness to explain to me the 'professional' view of what may happened.
I travel to Zurich weekly from Heathrow for my job. I could not ask to be more reassured in the professionalism of you people 'up front'
Thank-you.
I understand considerably more than I did a few days ago - and I appreciate the openess and willingness to explain to me the 'professional' view of what may happened.
I travel to Zurich weekly from Heathrow for my job. I could not ask to be more reassured in the professionalism of you people 'up front'
Thank-you.
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Theoretically it can be fixed by good comm with ATC but it gets kinda busy round London
Used to get frequent nuisance RAs on crossing mil traffic in SPY/PAM area (over Amsterdam) due to high rates of climb to reach the co-ordinated crossing flight-level.= but despite info given when traffic permitted RAs were always followed. Leads to a few heart-stopping moments
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Lonmore, what I meant was that getting into a higher rate than is wished in order to make a point at a level can be fixed / avoided by good communication - if you can get a word in edgeways - thus avoiding an RA situation in the first place...
There was never any discussion or intended advice in that post about using com to avoid following an RA!
There was never any discussion or intended advice in that post about using com to avoid following an RA!
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Sounds like they in the sharp end followed procedures to prevent an incident and then did the right thing by the punters in letting them know what had happened.
Good on you for asking, but (in the absence of info to the contrary at this stage) it sounds, in the final analysis, like a well-handled almost-non-event. That is, the system worked to ensure that any danger to you and your fellow passengers was minimised.
Good on you for asking, but (in the absence of info to the contrary at this stage) it sounds, in the final analysis, like a well-handled almost-non-event. That is, the system worked to ensure that any danger to you and your fellow passengers was minimised.
