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Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash

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Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash

Old 8th Mar 2007, 01:04
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In the national newspaper The Australian today at page 7 (The Nation) Stephen Fitzpatrick the Australian reporter who is Jakarta Correspondent says "In more than 10 years of flying into Yogyakarta's airport since my first arrival there as a student in 1994, I have never felt comfortable hitting the heavily pitted and too-short runway. I have regularly seen passenger jets run off the end of it, becoming marooned in the rice fields that surround the airfield."

I guess that explains why this type of accident was inevitable.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 01:35
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I may be missing something but I didn't notice any escape slides from the forward and aft doors.
I think the slides need to drop a certain distance before they will inflate, it looks like the gear has separated so I imagine the drop wasn't sufficient and the passengers would have been able to step off the aircraft into the field. From memory this sort of thing has happened a few times in the past with overruns.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 02:25
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too-short runway
c. 7800ft for B737
I guess he'd be positively appoplectic landing at, for example, Queenstown on an NZ B734 after a challenging approach to a runway which is a hell of a lot shorter!!

On the other hand - if being vexacious, some might say 12,000 feet of runway at BKK isn't long enough for some B744 crews
I have regularly seen passenger jets run off the end of it
As far as I know, 1 other occurance of excursion. And that was apparently with standing water after a thunderstorm with 'possibly' not the most advantagous flap setting - (30 instead of 40)

I guess that explains why this type of accident was inevitable
I guess 'Stephen Fitzpatrick' 'aint no expert' on aircraft performance. I've landed (as a passenger) at Yogya and was quite happy at the time.

Carol24 - I humbly suggest you might be refering to landing in the opposite direction to the accident aircrafts path. If I'm wrong, i apologise. I don't have flying experience at Yogya airport - but in the absence of a reply from someone who does - I can only say that for the type in question, and in terms of total runway length, from a performance perspective there should be no difficulty. The only time the length would be limiting would be when contaminated (like standing water) AND at large weights(fully loaded AND considerable extra fuel for further sectors) - I can't imagine that GA would have enough extra fuel onboard for further sectors that would ever bring about that situation.

As far as geography is concerned I don't have charts for Yogya, but can say the following - the approach to RW09 is a straight in approach with ILS facility. The only limiting local terrain is to the East of the airport and would/should have had no bearing on today's accident. That terrain would be a factor in arriving in the opposite direction to todays accident aircraft (to Rw27) and requires a visual turn on finals - but i don't know what instrument segment is published for leading up to that runway's approach.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 04:18
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Were the flaps correctly deployed for landing? Eyewitnesses and passengers report that the landing was unusually fast. The photo published in Flight is the clearest view of the wing that I've seen:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-central.html

Porrohman.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 04:45
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I haven't heard one word about flight attendents or flight crew handling the evacuation
If you look carefully on the Channel 7 footage, you can see two Garuda FAs assisting another man to help a pax on the ground. A little later a woman (am pretty sure is also an FA as her top looks like the kebaya worn by the crew) can be seen running back toward the aircraft (she waves her arms as if to keep her balance).

So I would say they were doing what any would do and helping where needed. Also not to forget they also had just lost a colleague and were likely in shock too, so to still be standing is a feat in itself!! Around this time in the video the L2 can be seen with no-one exiting, so the FA responsible for L2 may well have moved on to help people who could be helped.

As for slide, I thought the same as Sinala when Isaw the video, it looks like something is hanging from the door but definitely not infalted. Either not high enough or possibly damaged? Photos will tell i guess.

Seems to be a very bad year for this region so far
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 04:55
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It has been reported to me (I have'n't seen it yet) that Channel 7 news has shown an interview with one of the pilots who explained that they had severe turbulence during the flight and an incidence of severe turbulence three minutes before landing (that presumably stuffed up their approach - My assumption). The CVR and FDR are on their way to Australia.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 04:57
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flap setting??

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Old 8th Mar 2007, 05:10
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Seaman Staines,
The hits on the sites have been overwhelming THE ENTIRE PROVIDER! It's nuts! Whenever there's an accident, that site gets overwhelmed. I can give you the link, but unfortunately, I do not have permission from the photoowners to even hotlink it outside the site.

ExFSO,
I was extremely annoyed when a housewife was interviewed saying "there were thin smoke coming out of the wings that morning"... and then the academics and so called experts talking a load of you know what... It gets tiring and annoying, especially when you know some of the people on board that plane!

A heck of a 48hr period? At least I got extra sleep after I made that post...

Radarlove,
METARS for JOG has been rather difficult to get, TAFs are broadcasted but not the METARS, which is solely in the national met office AFAIK, and God knows who they transmit it to! This problem became excruciating when they changed the code from WIIJ to WARJ...

Carol24,
There is a pic of GZC landing on JOG's runway 27 taken meters from the embankment where the fatal impact took place... the photographer was one of the sources to what I wrote as he happened to be in town, and jumped to the airport on first call, and its been trying times for him, he'd been trained in Garuda, worked on GZC, and also on Adam's KKV and KKW... so these past 3 months have been difficult for him to come to terms with.

Theamrad, yeah well, it was only a matter of time before I post these things here, but it was a heck of day tracing 2 pax on the flight... so couldn't get here until early morning local. Yes, the "new flying banana", then this... disturbing times. But no one expected Garuda to be the next one! It's a shock to almost everyone here! If it was another Adam or Lion, we'd just shrug our shoulders and say "oh not again!" Interestingly, there were 2 other incidents yesterday, though minor/precautionary measures.

As to JOG, bumpy runway indeed, but a strong one... 2200m, definitely enough, but yes, you need to be on the mark especially on 09, that downslope after txy C can put you in a LOT of trouble if your speed's off the mark! Put many friends in hairy situations. Normally, on touchdown, "if you don't think you can make it at C or be at fast taxy speed at C, might aswell go around!"

At the moment, unfortunately it does look like crew error, but there are heaps more factors to consider, because such a botch is nowhere near Garuda's dictionary! They're known for LOW AND SLOW, and they've caused those "high speed below 10 above " types to make a few 360s in the past! Something else must have caused them to make the error... but we dunno what, either wrong descent profile caused by the nice wind we're having at the moment (yes, 20kts surface winds over the past week or so, which to us, is "unusual"... we're used to the <5kt! LOL). One more thing is that we're looking closely at the pictures of the wings, which may not have been at GA's SOP of 30 for landing, which would then pose a few more questions.

Sinala,
I don't think anyone made it through R2 without getting burnt... as to why the slide didn't deploy on L2, well, we gotta ask the F/A2 on the flight.

In the national newspaper The Australian today at page 7 (The Nation) Stephen Fitzpatrick the Australian reporter who is Jakarta Correspondent says "In more than 10 years of flying into Yogyakarta's airport since my first arrival there as a student in 1994, I have never felt comfortable hitting the heavily pitted and too-short runway. I have regularly seen passenger jets run off the end of it, becoming marooned in the rice fields that surround the airfield."

I guess that explains why this type of accident was inevitable.
These kinds of comments make me laugh! 2200m! FAR requirement for 734 at MLW and dry runway is 1650m... Dunno why that guy has a problem about it!

As far as geography is concerned I don't have charts for Yogya, but can say the following - the approach to RW09 is a straight in approach with ILS facility. The only limiting local terrain is to the East of the airport and would/should have had no bearing on today's accident. That terrain would be a factor in arriving in the opposite direction to todays accident aircraft (to Rw27) and requires a visual turn on finals - but i don't know what instrument segment is published for leading up to that runway's approach.
Coming into JOG along W17, you'd expect to be over GEPAK at 6000, and radial 276JOG@8NM at 4000... at that point if you don't get put in a hold, you'd stay at 4000, and intercept the LLZ for the ILS just before JOG VOR. When you do get the hold, it's down to as far as 2500ft.

For 27, from W17, they'd bring you in over departures and vector you straight for the right downwind, or do so from 8DME, or you do an ILS circle to land.

Terrain factors are to the east, north (10NM from approach path), and 3000ft terrain between GEPAK and 276JOG8DME. The other challenge is, it's only a 12NM wide corridor either side if W17 and the ILS for below 6000... a series MILCTZ, and JOGAPP is run by the military... so they keep those MCTZs intact unless it's an emergency or severe wx.

Now his initial touchdown would leave only 1400m or so of tarmac to go... an overrun was inevitable... just no one thought he'd go over the ditch! Well he did bounce twice... the rest is history.

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Old 8th Mar 2007, 07:34
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PK-KAR .. thanks for the insight!
.
.. couple of things, to note:-
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I make no comment on the cameraman filming after extrication other than to say look, really look at the information being presented to you all by that footage:-
- The wind was not calm that morning, the smoke plume was moving away from the aircraft at a rate of at least 10-15kts, probably faster up higher above 500ft AGL
- If the aircraft resting position was still aligned to the runway then there was a crosswind of 10-15KTS from the left . If the aircraft resting position was not aligned with the runway, the wind could have included a downwind component?! .. PK- you might look into this!
- If the winds aloft were not forecast or the descent was delayed due traffic or else, there may have been profile issues?!
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.. the other, Spoiler position?
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I do not know if loss of HYD pressure would mean the spoilers would retract (even after a prang), but I have seen on other types, the spoilers remain in the last selected position after detachment or other system loss events??? .. any ginger beers care to comment!? .. it is also possible the crew closed them prior to system loss, or bumped closed during the accident sequence?! .. FDR will tell I guess!
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.. none of this should infer anything, (time will tell why the crew did not elect to go-around) rather to point out what can be gleaned from many sources including camera footage.
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The other thing I noted (although not really relevant), was the turbine noise was clearly the APU, not the number two as someone suggested !
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can we have a civilised look at these issues without the fragile ego pissing contests please ladies and gentlemen!
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 07:53
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Angry White paint again

I do not wish to get into any argument of what or why the crash happened

- but this evenings news said that the tail had been repainted white to obscure the Garuda logo.

This is complete contempt for the investigation process and is sign that Indonesia really is a third world dictatorship not capable of running an international airline.

I walked past the Canberra headquarters of the Australian Federal Police this afternoon. A car pulled up and out got a very well dressed lady in AFP uniform. She had chaplain marked on her uniform. With 2 AFP officers missing the last 24 hours have been very dificult for this person.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 08:18
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Engines 'still running'

Yeah, i thought that comment made on the news was odd, especially as when it was said the footage showed the engine clearly NOT rotating... I can only guess they have been watching too many re-runs of Lost!!

Also, the reports said 7 crew onboard with one lost. So that would mean 5 FAs, yes? Not "2, 3 or 4" as someone else mentioned earlier??

And another thing I am curious, perhaps PK could shed some light, as mentioned it looks as though the cockpit is missing, though it was said to be mostly intact.. is it just bent around to the right of fuselage (back of photo), so we cannot see it? Or did it detach completely? Thanks. PK you are invaluable in a situation like this, stops the speculating that is going on as we have such quick access to what is REALLY seen out there!
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 08:24
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Scurvy,
Indeed, the footage shows a headwind. Aircraft nose is still relatively in the direction of travel. If you look at the frame at 3:27, that's where the airport and the runway it overran are. By the looks of it, wind was 5 - 10 degs off the runway from the left. I think this footage dismisses tailwind.
Spoiler position, eyewitnesses stated spoilers deployed with reversers.
The high pitched whine throughout the video is the airport siren, same with the fire engines. We use that kind of siren over here. The sound started from frame 0:10 in the vid.
Looking at the flap position, it looks like it's not at 30, but 15 is more like it... Probably it was a flap assym, then something went wrong in the flare due to the speed and lower drag... but this part is just guesswork.
----
This is complete contempt for the investigation process and is sign that Indonesia really is a third world dictatorship not capable of running an international airline.
I wonder if I should laugh or cry at this one! Painting the logo out and airline name is standard anywhere if it crashed within the vicinity of an airport, unless the aircraft is in small pieces, then that's a different story.
----
Skysista,
5 F/As, the FA1 died. Garuda's Citilink (which this flight wasn't) carries 3 F/As...

Cockpit was said to be "80% relatively in tact", but bent due to hitting the opposite embankment, which sheared the landing gears and right wing. It then caught fire quickly hence you can see it in the video but not in the photos...

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Old 8th Mar 2007, 09:00
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Thanks PK. Yes now you mention it, siren makes sense, it didn't seem to be engine noise of course but I wasn't sure if an APU would carry on like that (also I didn't think it was used in the air, anyway, only on ground)

Reports of people who just walked away from airport and went to hotels, do you know if they managed to find out how many yet? I suppose when shock takes hold it seems like the logical thing to do, of course they would not be thinking they would be missed...
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 09:41
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... not sure whether we are talking about the same footage ... at the very beginning of the film we saw in Oz you can see the heat plume from the APU and hear it!
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SkySista
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.... they are used in flight (WX for restart/elec/A/C etc)!
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http://www.b737.org.uk/apu.htm
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PK,
.
. do you think the loss of HYD PRES stowed the spoilers?
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 09:48
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Regarding speedbrakes. It is quite possible that as part of their passenger evacuation drill they stowed the speedbrakes. SOP with many.

As regards pax taking hand baggage, perfectly normal reaction when getting off a aircraft, as it is what they ALWAYS do when they get off an aircraft. Despite emergency brief from CC etc, in the heat of the moment many are just instinctively going to stand up and open the overhead locker, however crazy that may seem to us armchair punters. The inbuilt behaviour is to not leave behind your valuables and things like passports.......

PP
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 09:57
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Are talking about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YkdkXoIddM

GA SOP for APU on arrival is simply... long taxi APU start on landing roll or completion thereof, short taxi, APU start on approach.

I dun hear the APU on the footage...

Scurvy, the current info is that the capt. ordered an evac and so did the f/o, none of which were heard in the cabin, which the F/A already initiated the evac. Now if that was true, one would assume that the evac checklist was done, which included the spoilers being retracted...

But this is going into guesswork...
---
An update,

capt. marwoto
fo. gagam
pu. wiranto waryo
sr. irawati ira
sr ati maryati
sr imam iskandar
sr. budianto ratna
Purser Wiranto Waryono died in the accident. His body was identified by his brother this morning, and his body is being flown back sometime today.

Current info was that he died while trying to evac pax from the Biz class. RIP... Duty to the last breath!

Respects!

PK-KAR
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 09:59
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Report of Plane on fire a few minutes out

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...166805660.html

This contradictory report quotes the cameraman seeing fire "a few minutes out from landing" and that he called his TV station on his mobile "as the plane was crashing" which is possible if he noticed something a few minutes out.

But could be a poor use of past/present tense by witnesess.

The report also states the station manager called by cameraman heard sirens in the background so perhaps the call or a second call was made after landing.



Mickjoebill.
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 10:01
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PK, once again your clear, informed and timely posts save us from a bunch of nonsense.

Thanks,

ABX
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 10:14
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PK et al,

In this link to Youtube that PK posted, around the 4 minute mark several explosions can be heard, I don't think that they were fuel tanks exploding as reported on the news.

Could they be tyres? Oxygen bottles? Other pressure vessels on board?

Can someone who might actually know have a guess for me?

Thanks,

ABX
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Old 8th Mar 2007, 10:37
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An Early synopsis

Regarding speedbrakes. It is quite possible that as part of their passenger evacuation drill they stowed the speedbrakes. SOP with many.
C'mon now. The cockpit wasn't attached to the rest of the fuse when it all came to rest and Captain Marwoto quickly shinnied out the flightdeck hatch.
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a. Low time Right-seater flying and a quite experienced captain in the LHS being so distracted by the unstable approach that he doesn't lower any flap (normally a RH seater's duty). They may have also landed with a slight tailwind component (judging from the post-crash smoke, there's little wind at all however).
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b. RH seater trying so hard to plant it at high-speed (due to the total lack of flap) that he drives the nosewheel in - in a classic porpoise cycle initiation (i.e. a nose-to-main-gear continuing reverberation). (which explains some of the pax descriptions of what they felt).
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c. Nosewheel breaks away, hydraulics are lost, MLG braking quickly exhausts any stored accumulator pressure, reverse isn't engaged due to pilot distraction, spoilers don't deploy (possibly because of the flaps being left up/no hyd pressure).
The photographic evidence for this is above (i.e. the flaps are UP). In the other images, look at the port wing-root.
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It's clear in the composite image that the flaps are still up. That fact would be very hard for Indonesia's KNKT Chief and chief apologist Professor Oetrajo Diran (of Silkair crash fame) to explain away. The DFDR will have all the objective evidence however.
It would seem to be naught but a classically incompetent very heavy landing carried out by a tyro and supervised very maladroitly by a non-instructor type - notwithstanding any claims of wind-shear.
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Indicative of what's coming down the pike eventually with the ICAO's infamous MPL licence.
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If the approach is not stabilized at 500ft, you must go round. Costs you nothing. Anything else is the beginning of a nasty accident
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