Indonesian B737 runway overrun/crash
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Quote: "Reports are also saying that the nose wheel was on fire before landing, what could possibly cause that?"
I know nothing about the 737 nose-undercarriage design, but I know about environmental testing of hydraulic components. Hydraulic fluid can form an explosive mixture if it forms a fine mist in a contained space as a result of a high-pressure leak. For this reason, the environmental test chambers belonging to a company I used to work for were fitted with sensors to detect hydraulic leaks. If these detected a leak then, amongst other things, all power to the unit under test was withdrawn, all unnecessary equipment in the chamber was shut down and massive extractor fans were used to rapidly ventilate the chamber. In case these measures failed to prevent an explosion, the doors and walls to the chamber were blast-proof. There were massive earth banks outside the chamber, which would deflect any explosion in case the walls failed. The ceiling was deliberately weaker than the rest of the structure to allow any explosion to exit vertically.
Whether a hydraulics fire / explosion in the nose-wheel bay had anything to do with the tragic events is impossible to tell and it’s not something I’ve heard of happening in other aircraft accidents.
My sympathy goes out to all family and friends of those affected.
Porrohman.
I know nothing about the 737 nose-undercarriage design, but I know about environmental testing of hydraulic components. Hydraulic fluid can form an explosive mixture if it forms a fine mist in a contained space as a result of a high-pressure leak. For this reason, the environmental test chambers belonging to a company I used to work for were fitted with sensors to detect hydraulic leaks. If these detected a leak then, amongst other things, all power to the unit under test was withdrawn, all unnecessary equipment in the chamber was shut down and massive extractor fans were used to rapidly ventilate the chamber. In case these measures failed to prevent an explosion, the doors and walls to the chamber were blast-proof. There were massive earth banks outside the chamber, which would deflect any explosion in case the walls failed. The ceiling was deliberately weaker than the rest of the structure to allow any explosion to exit vertically.
Whether a hydraulics fire / explosion in the nose-wheel bay had anything to do with the tragic events is impossible to tell and it’s not something I’ve heard of happening in other aircraft accidents.
My sympathy goes out to all family and friends of those affected.
Porrohman.
Last edited by Porrohman; 7th Mar 2007 at 12:15. Reason: clarified the wording in 2nd para
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taking your camera would be as natural as a doctor taking his medical bag, or a decent lady taking her purse...it is a cheap shot against journlists!
it is because of those photo journalists that this plane crash will get worldwide attention and POSSIBLY improve things
it is because of those photo journalists that this plane crash will get worldwide attention and POSSIBLY improve things
it is because of those photo journalists that this plane crash will get worldwide attention and POSSIBLY improve things
Has there been an investigation yet James? No - so anything is just speculation isn't it?
With regard the camera man taking his camera; yes - providing these pictures may well make people sit up and take notice of how horrific this was and it might hopefully bring some attention to Indonesia's transportation problems - it certainly seems to need attention.
And should the camera man have picked up his camera - maybe not but it wouldn't be the first time that passengers leaving a crashed aircraft have stopped to pick up personal belongings. I'm sure there are those on PPRUNE who have studied how crowds act during 'disasters'. It maybe immediately following the crash that there appeared to be no need to rush to passengers probably suffering shock, trauma and the weird effects of adrenalin....
So maybe the camera man should not have taken his camera - but if something can be learnt because he did that helps to reduce the risks or improve things in future then at least something good will have come out of it.
With regard the camera man taking his camera; yes - providing these pictures may well make people sit up and take notice of how horrific this was and it might hopefully bring some attention to Indonesia's transportation problems - it certainly seems to need attention.
And should the camera man have picked up his camera - maybe not but it wouldn't be the first time that passengers leaving a crashed aircraft have stopped to pick up personal belongings. I'm sure there are those on PPRUNE who have studied how crowds act during 'disasters'. It maybe immediately following the crash that there appeared to be no need to rush to passengers probably suffering shock, trauma and the weird effects of adrenalin....
So maybe the camera man should not have taken his camera - but if something can be learnt because he did that helps to reduce the risks or improve things in future then at least something good will have come out of it.
From the scenes shown here on Oz TV news it seems that the fire/crash crews were a bloody long time getting there
That's it. I am not taking any Indonesian airliners ever again.
News cameras are often kept under the seat in front rahter than overhead locker.
Quote from the cameraman
"We opened up the emergency door, and I do not know what happened after, because I am out - I picked up my camera and ran away.
"But for people in the front seats, I think there is a big problem because the front of the aircraft is cracking up, broken...."
Perhaps he helped open the door?
Perhaps his camera was of the consumer sized variety?
His first shot is 100 feet from the aircraft, perhaps he helped others to saftey?
The recording which may have a hidden time stamp reveal;
Three other passengers with large bags, two with rucksacks on their backs.
Audio reveals engine still operating.
There were ample able bodied passengers to help attend to those who couldn't help themselves.
No rescue attempts at front of aircraft.
No one exiting rear door after x number of minutes.
All useful info for the industry.
Like any passenger he had a choice to go to the front of the aircaft and help, but with a broken leg perhaps he thought better of it.
Mickjoebill
Quote from the cameraman
"We opened up the emergency door, and I do not know what happened after, because I am out - I picked up my camera and ran away.
"But for people in the front seats, I think there is a big problem because the front of the aircraft is cracking up, broken...."
Perhaps he helped open the door?
Perhaps his camera was of the consumer sized variety?
His first shot is 100 feet from the aircraft, perhaps he helped others to saftey?
The recording which may have a hidden time stamp reveal;
Three other passengers with large bags, two with rucksacks on their backs.
Audio reveals engine still operating.
There were ample able bodied passengers to help attend to those who couldn't help themselves.
No rescue attempts at front of aircraft.
No one exiting rear door after x number of minutes.
All useful info for the industry.
Like any passenger he had a choice to go to the front of the aircaft and help, but with a broken leg perhaps he thought better of it.
Mickjoebill
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As humble SLF myself, I'm with Blackace on this. If I'm trying to leave a burning aircraft I don't want my exit impeded by someone retrieving or lugging baggage - be it a camera that 'might be useful to the investigation' or a medical bag that 'might be useful for treating the injured'. Getting out is the single best thing that can be done for my survival prospects.
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Me...a cameraman
As a professional camera man, I put my case that I often have video in hand during the flight. You need to bear in mind that many news people these days carry very small units. The days of the hulking shoulder jobs has gone.Camera is my life and livelihood and as such I feel a responsibilty to capture such moments providing it does not impede rescue attempts.
As some have said here, the story is important to ensure that it highlights problems with the safety or industry.
I, for one, feel safer bringing these matters into the open and knowing they're being fully investigated.
Some of your writers have said 'look at the flap settings', and that could indeed be useful at some time.
I have developed a kind of sixth sense over the years of where everyone is about me. That means that I am aware if I'm in the way, and make sure I notice and observe things of importance.
I can't have a collision with a top politician or stray into a mine field !
I would also sum up if I could be of assistance and drop the camera instantly if that was the case, as would most.
Do not forget the number of camera people killed highlighting news stories and bringing things to the public eye, and bear that in mind when saying that he 'grabbed his valuable camera and saved himself'.
The poor guy had survived a plane crash and was still doing his job !
Thoughts with those who lost someone in this terrible crash.
Bob.
As some have said here, the story is important to ensure that it highlights problems with the safety or industry.
I, for one, feel safer bringing these matters into the open and knowing they're being fully investigated.
Some of your writers have said 'look at the flap settings', and that could indeed be useful at some time.
I have developed a kind of sixth sense over the years of where everyone is about me. That means that I am aware if I'm in the way, and make sure I notice and observe things of importance.
I can't have a collision with a top politician or stray into a mine field !
I would also sum up if I could be of assistance and drop the camera instantly if that was the case, as would most.
Do not forget the number of camera people killed highlighting news stories and bringing things to the public eye, and bear that in mind when saying that he 'grabbed his valuable camera and saved himself'.
The poor guy had survived a plane crash and was still doing his job !
Thoughts with those who lost someone in this terrible crash.
Bob.
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Do not forget the number of camera people killed highlighting news stories and bringing things to the public eye, and bear that in mind when saying that he 'grabbed his valuable camera and saved himself'.
The poor guy had survived a plane crash and was still doing his job !
The poor guy had survived a plane crash and was still doing his job !
GD&L
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The video itself shows some passengers retrieved luggage before evacuating the aircraft. This also supports many passenger statements that say many were concerned about getting their luggage, rather than just getting out.
These are passenger statements not mine.
If the industry learns anything, then at least I hope they take note of this and act instead of appearing to condone it.
These are passenger statements not mine.
If the industry learns anything, then at least I hope they take note of this and act instead of appearing to condone it.
Another survivor said some passengers were scrambling to get their belongings before he shouted at them to save themselves.
"Some passengers wanted to get their hand luggage. I cried to them, 'Get out, get out',"
"Some passengers wanted to get their hand luggage. I cried to them, 'Get out, get out',"
Local Television here in Darwin reports that a RAAF C-130 that departed for Yogya carrying medical teams supplies will be returning early tomorrow morning with some critically injured Pax to the Trauma ward at Royal Darwin Hospital.
To those quick to criticise the journo who shot the footage, please respect that one of his collegues is amongst those unaccounted for and remember that regardless of one's occupation, nobody would wish having to go through such events on anyone!
Condolences to all involved, but let us all hope that some good may come from the investigation and lessons of this accident to improve air safety, especially in Indonesia.
To those quick to criticise the journo who shot the footage, please respect that one of his collegues is amongst those unaccounted for and remember that regardless of one's occupation, nobody would wish having to go through such events on anyone!
Condolences to all involved, but let us all hope that some good may come from the investigation and lessons of this accident to improve air safety, especially in Indonesia.
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all this BS about the cameraman...it is his life and his right to decide how to get out as long as what he is doing does not hinder others...I haven't heard one word about flight attendents or flight crew handling the evacuation
if all forward died, that is the captain and 2 of 3 or 4 flight attendents.
also recall that if throttles are not fully at idle stops it is impossible to get into reverse (sw...midway)
if all forward died, that is the captain and 2 of 3 or 4 flight attendents.
also recall that if throttles are not fully at idle stops it is impossible to get into reverse (sw...midway)
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I think we have a bit of a red herring here, regarding the cameraman. If you shift back to the thread about the recent Adam Air plane that went missing, and you read some of the comments regarding safety, there is, unfortunately, a more insidious catalyst to be considered here.
You can find right in the forum, first, the prediction that Indonesia would sooner or later be bound to see an unnecessary crash; second, that the authorities there do not really know what safety is; and third, that the government is so closely linked to the air carriers that conflict of interest reigns supreme.
Then a skeptic might turn to the ordinary news, and judge for himself, when he reads that the solution being considered is to fly newer aircraft. The implication seems to be that aircraft are safe for a decade, even when there is no great interest in maintaining them. Once again, if you read back to the specifics of suspect components being traded around, the pattern becomes pretty convincing. It would seem as though the Indonesian air industry is dedicated to minimal ongoing maintenance costs, and that there is every chance of faulty components triggering a real variety of disasters.
(I wouldn't say the Indonesians are more stupid than the rest of us—the world in general takes the very same attitude regarding our biggest aircraft of all, Planet Earth.) But because most people can more easily envision plane crashes than environmental crashes, we do generally like to think our plane flight is based on maintenance and real safety, rather than profits and excuses. Spend awhile reading the Adam Air thread, and then read this one, and consider whether you yourself would feel relaxed flying Indonesian airlines.
You can find right in the forum, first, the prediction that Indonesia would sooner or later be bound to see an unnecessary crash; second, that the authorities there do not really know what safety is; and third, that the government is so closely linked to the air carriers that conflict of interest reigns supreme.
Then a skeptic might turn to the ordinary news, and judge for himself, when he reads that the solution being considered is to fly newer aircraft. The implication seems to be that aircraft are safe for a decade, even when there is no great interest in maintaining them. Once again, if you read back to the specifics of suspect components being traded around, the pattern becomes pretty convincing. It would seem as though the Indonesian air industry is dedicated to minimal ongoing maintenance costs, and that there is every chance of faulty components triggering a real variety of disasters.
(I wouldn't say the Indonesians are more stupid than the rest of us—the world in general takes the very same attitude regarding our biggest aircraft of all, Planet Earth.) But because most people can more easily envision plane crashes than environmental crashes, we do generally like to think our plane flight is based on maintenance and real safety, rather than profits and excuses. Spend awhile reading the Adam Air thread, and then read this one, and consider whether you yourself would feel relaxed flying Indonesian airlines.
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"Quote" Well, at least they found the wreckage. Last time they were looking for a 737 in Indonesia it took them almost a month.
That's it. I am not taking any Indonesian airliners ever again. "by fox niner"
Having flown with Garuda many times on various Hajj detachments i find there approach to safety just as thorough as any UK carrier and would happily fly with them again.
I have also done this paricular route many times with Garuda and can tell you that run way is very bumpy and uncomfortable as a pax. Although not as bad a UPG.
I was quite saddened when i found out about this accident having flown on that particular aircraft just 3 months ago and the very approachable and friendly crew that i have experienced on many Garuda flights.
RIP all who perished.
That's it. I am not taking any Indonesian airliners ever again. "by fox niner"
Having flown with Garuda many times on various Hajj detachments i find there approach to safety just as thorough as any UK carrier and would happily fly with them again.
I have also done this paricular route many times with Garuda and can tell you that run way is very bumpy and uncomfortable as a pax. Although not as bad a UPG.
I was quite saddened when i found out about this accident having flown on that particular aircraft just 3 months ago and the very approachable and friendly crew that i have experienced on many Garuda flights.
RIP all who perished.
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"The Clouds Above", you have got to be kidding? Mates of mine have some spectacular storeys of flying with Garuda. One named Shagger reckons he was almost killed flying into UPG as Pax, Garuda has some fine aviators but the standard is not consistent. Indo-Nigeria
Same standards as the UK....you do have your head in the clouds!
Same standards as the UK....you do have your head in the clouds!
Hey guys...
I'm not blaming anyone here. I just find "flying on an indonesian carrier" too risky for comfort nowadays.
Just look at this footage for a moment.
http://au.news.yahoo.com
At time 00:59 into the film, apparently someone can be seen climbing out of the cockpit window. The cockpit itself is not visible on the footage. What's more, he seems to be wearing clothing resembling a cockpit uniform. Just take a look.
In many reports, survivors tell the media they felt the plane shaking/vibrating heavily prior to touchdown. This may be caused by three things:
1. Weather. However, it seems to have been CAVOK at 7 AM, smooth air...
2. Spoiler/Speedbrake extended with flaps greater than 15, to bleed off energy.
3. flap extension to a greater flapsetting than 15, despite a high airspeed.
points 2 and 3 would mean that the landing was made from a rushed approach.
I'm not blaming anyone here. I just find "flying on an indonesian carrier" too risky for comfort nowadays.
Just look at this footage for a moment.
http://au.news.yahoo.com
At time 00:59 into the film, apparently someone can be seen climbing out of the cockpit window. The cockpit itself is not visible on the footage. What's more, he seems to be wearing clothing resembling a cockpit uniform. Just take a look.
In many reports, survivors tell the media they felt the plane shaking/vibrating heavily prior to touchdown. This may be caused by three things:
1. Weather. However, it seems to have been CAVOK at 7 AM, smooth air...
2. Spoiler/Speedbrake extended with flaps greater than 15, to bleed off energy.
3. flap extension to a greater flapsetting than 15, despite a high airspeed.
points 2 and 3 would mean that the landing was made from a rushed approach.