Zero flight time ATPL
Guest
Posts: n/a
Zero flight time ATPL
Zero flight-time ATPL. Several European airlines are applying to the JAA for direct entry commercial pilots. They argue that it is pointless doing c200 hours on singles and twin props just to get an ATPL and then never fly them again, and they have a point. They argue that it is quite feasible to go straight on to a B737 or A320 simulator and learn on the kind of aeroplane on which the the pilot will spend his flying career. The quality of simulation now is such that effects of controls, stalls and I/F can just as well be taught on a modern sim as on a Cessna or Piper. It is further argued that modern aircraft are so well protected against mis-handling, that mis-handling practice is virtually redundant.
There would still be a need for the theory exams, but they will exclude all mention of propeller theory etc.
I think it will happen, especially as the forecast pilot shortage will make the whole concept very attractive to the airlines and they will push their Authorities into trial programs. Very soon, I think.
There would still be a need for the theory exams, but they will exclude all mention of propeller theory etc.
I think it will happen, especially as the forecast pilot shortage will make the whole concept very attractive to the airlines and they will push their Authorities into trial programs. Very soon, I think.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Makes no logical sense to me. Why pay 300 quid an hour for a 737/A320 sim when you can spend 100 an hour for a PA28? The sim environment will teach virtually no airmanship, will be all multi crew (what happens when the skipper keels over and the f/o has virtually no experience of making any decisions REALLY on his/her own?), and as for no prop theory, well they're not quite dad yet...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hmmmm...........The theory is nice, but there are some very serious practical concerns that have nothing to do with professional aviation, but everything to do with the concept that the ATPL is the "ultimate" licence. This route means it no longer is such, it's a very limited variation of the concept that was there with the BCPL, but in a different arena,
I guess I can see several big objections. I for one would be very reluctant to fly as a passenger in something like a Seneca with a pilot that's never flown single crew, never flown piston props, ( or even worse, carburettor engines with icing potential) or flown a single engine go around in such an aircraft, or had to fly "steam" driven analog instrumented aircraft, or had to (try to) find a grass strip that's only got a windsock to identify where it is, or, or,,, or....
In a nutshell, a zero flight time ATPL would ideally have to have a restriction that prevents any single crew GA type flight operation without a comprehensive check out first.
Maybe I'm over reacting, but I've seen a few examples of both end of the spectrum, and some of what I've seen has not impressed me at all.
[This message has been edited by Irish Steve (edited 24 May 2001).]
I guess I can see several big objections. I for one would be very reluctant to fly as a passenger in something like a Seneca with a pilot that's never flown single crew, never flown piston props, ( or even worse, carburettor engines with icing potential) or flown a single engine go around in such an aircraft, or had to fly "steam" driven analog instrumented aircraft, or had to (try to) find a grass strip that's only got a windsock to identify where it is, or, or,,, or....
In a nutshell, a zero flight time ATPL would ideally have to have a restriction that prevents any single crew GA type flight operation without a comprehensive check out first.
Maybe I'm over reacting, but I've seen a few examples of both end of the spectrum, and some of what I've seen has not impressed me at all.
[This message has been edited by Irish Steve (edited 24 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
The next step will be a professional licence to use and programme the Autopilot, obtainable after a thorough and comprehensive six- months course at OATS, and any previous flight experience, or worse, any previous working experience as pilot will disqualify the candidate. bad habits are hard to eradicate.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can see the single crew IR being binned in favour of the Multicrew as an initial and the
first step towards this has already been made
Most airline pilots will let their single crew IR lapse - too expensive
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 25 May 2001).]
first step towards this has already been made
Most airline pilots will let their single crew IR lapse - too expensive
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 25 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Am I just a cynic or have I seen the true reason that airlines would like this?
1. The cost of training becomes prohibitive for the individual who has to use airline training schemes to get qualified, with the subsequent result that the airlines can bond the pilot and keep him.
2. The licence would only be applicable to the particular aircraft type on which the pilot trained. This would make it harder for a pilot to change aircraft and therefore companies.
1. The cost of training becomes prohibitive for the individual who has to use airline training schemes to get qualified, with the subsequent result that the airlines can bond the pilot and keep him.
2. The licence would only be applicable to the particular aircraft type on which the pilot trained. This would make it harder for a pilot to change aircraft and therefore companies.
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW -
Why on earth not? I believe it has got to come one day. Insurance companies change with the times. They always have. They even insure lighter than air craft these days - who would have thought it?!
As for press coverage, there is no howling by the press about: "Shock horror - Authorities allow pilots with only a few weeks of total flight time in little petrol powered planes to fly Jumbos!!!" (Maybe there should be!!) As long as precautions for safety are taken, and are shown to be taken, the press don't have a front page story.
Referring to Irish Steve's post, there would obviously have to be a restriction on the licence. If the pilot who is restricted to multi-crew, jet only, specific types then wants to fly for fun, he can get himself a PPL!!
Whether the current training system gives specific quantifiable benefits to large jet pilots, that couldn't be gained without flying small piston engine aircraft, is open to debate.
If any debate comes down, finally, on the side that there isn't any real benefit, or that the benefits aren't worth the time and cost, the world (and insurance companies) will adapt to the change.
Why on earth not? I believe it has got to come one day. Insurance companies change with the times. They always have. They even insure lighter than air craft these days - who would have thought it?!
As for press coverage, there is no howling by the press about: "Shock horror - Authorities allow pilots with only a few weeks of total flight time in little petrol powered planes to fly Jumbos!!!" (Maybe there should be!!) As long as precautions for safety are taken, and are shown to be taken, the press don't have a front page story.
Referring to Irish Steve's post, there would obviously have to be a restriction on the licence. If the pilot who is restricted to multi-crew, jet only, specific types then wants to fly for fun, he can get himself a PPL!!
Whether the current training system gives specific quantifiable benefits to large jet pilots, that couldn't be gained without flying small piston engine aircraft, is open to debate.
If any debate comes down, finally, on the side that there isn't any real benefit, or that the benefits aren't worth the time and cost, the world (and insurance companies) will adapt to the change.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well : his instructor will start smoking again during the "students" training sessions.
Can you imagine being in the sim for , lets say a year ?
Instructors can change during the sessions.
That is when there are sufficient volunteers (which i can't imagine anyway)
And think about the student , with only theoretical exams for a long while and then a-hell-of-a-lot sim sessions .
Actually the system now is perfect !
Learn on cheap small planes ! While in the real blue.
No hassle for the airlines instructors , there are a lot of light planes instructors who know exactly where they are talking about.
Actually we get the applicants for the jobs nicely presented , the only need is a minimum of 7 sim sessions and he/she is type-rated. But of course we give some extra sessions. NO bother at all.
Again i believe:
-There is no Sim availability for those extreme long courses !
-There are no airline TRI's enough willing to do it.
-The Sim is way too expensive.
-The end-result student will remain a student for appr.5 years even after type
rating....
-The line traing will take another year or so.
But it is good to think about it anyway before flushing it through the toilet........
Cheers
Can you imagine being in the sim for , lets say a year ?
Instructors can change during the sessions.
That is when there are sufficient volunteers (which i can't imagine anyway)
And think about the student , with only theoretical exams for a long while and then a-hell-of-a-lot sim sessions .
Actually the system now is perfect !
Learn on cheap small planes ! While in the real blue.
No hassle for the airlines instructors , there are a lot of light planes instructors who know exactly where they are talking about.
Actually we get the applicants for the jobs nicely presented , the only need is a minimum of 7 sim sessions and he/she is type-rated. But of course we give some extra sessions. NO bother at all.
Again i believe:
-There is no Sim availability for those extreme long courses !
-There are no airline TRI's enough willing to do it.
-The Sim is way too expensive.
-The end-result student will remain a student for appr.5 years even after type
rating....
-The line traing will take another year or so.
But it is good to think about it anyway before flushing it through the toilet........
Cheers
Guest
Posts: n/a
There must be countless instances where an airline pilot's background and experience in lighties has saved a potentially catastrophic situation. The B767 fuel starvation incident over Canada a few years back, where they landed it in a glider strip, is a classic example that springs to mind - I'm sure there are plenty of others.
For sure, the new generation of airliners bear sod all resemblance to the 1950s design trainers that we all learned on. But IMHO all you'll get if you train someone from scratch on something as synthetic as an Airbus sim, is someone with twinkle fingers on the automatics and no basic appreciation of stick and rudder flying. All well and good until the day when those EFIS screens all go black at once and they actually have to look out the window and fly the damn thing ... I think there'd be some fundamental shortfalls that would make themselves evident pretty quickly.
For sure, the new generation of airliners bear sod all resemblance to the 1950s design trainers that we all learned on. But IMHO all you'll get if you train someone from scratch on something as synthetic as an Airbus sim, is someone with twinkle fingers on the automatics and no basic appreciation of stick and rudder flying. All well and good until the day when those EFIS screens all go black at once and they actually have to look out the window and fly the damn thing ... I think there'd be some fundamental shortfalls that would make themselves evident pretty quickly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think its a great idea!
I think that a similar course should be adopted for doctors and surgeons to eliminate the shortage in our NHS. After all, there’s no point in a future surgeon fannying around as a junior doctor – Just give me 1 year with a set of anatomy books, a mannequin and a really sharp knife ... and ... anybody fancy a frontal lobotomy?
I think that a similar course should be adopted for doctors and surgeons to eliminate the shortage in our NHS. After all, there’s no point in a future surgeon fannying around as a junior doctor – Just give me 1 year with a set of anatomy books, a mannequin and a really sharp knife ... and ... anybody fancy a frontal lobotomy?