View Poll Results: Should there be a separate frequency for practice distress calls instead of 121.5?
Yes (I am a professional pilot)
363
45.60%
No (I am a professional pilot)
240
30.15%
Yes (I am a recreational pilot)
79
9.92%
No (I am a recreational pilot)
78
9.80%
Don't know or don't care (I may or may not even be a pilot)
36
4.52%
Voters: 796. This poll is closed
Abuse on 121.5
PPRuNe Person
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What amuses me is those calls you get on 121.5 in mid-Atlantic, where the person making the call includes the words "transmitting on guard", trying to regain comms with Shanwick/Gander, and some joker comes up with "you're on guard"...
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I have read this thread with some interest as once I was a military ATCO, before I became responsible for developing some of Diddly Dee's systems and then the finance of some them before retiring and becoming a flying instructor.
The ideal solution would be to provide a separate training frequency however there are a few points to consider....
1. You really need to mimic the auto triangulation system otherwise otherwise what training value are you getting out of the call).
2. Who should provide the service?
3. Who should pay?
The military bolted on their practice frequency on to their existing 243 UHF DF facilities and made use of generally existing facilities. This option is not quite so easy for the VHF system which was only really designed to stop CAS intrusions in the South of England (who said there wasn't a North South divide) Seeing as this system was financed by NATS who have now been privatised UK it probably unlikely they would fund it off their own bat.
My own view is the financial case for the ideal solution is unlikely to get past Gordo's treasury and NATS will argue it is outside their remit. But the need to introduce u/t pilot's to D&D's services so they realise that if they call on 121.5 there will be a highly trained, non-judgemental (couldn't be punt at anyone), controller who is there to help them is sufficiently important that we should learn to cope with the occasional inconvenience.
As to when you should listen to 121.5 in the UK perhaps a rule of thumb is when you are talking frequently to ATC and therefore really monitoring the ATC frequency then 121.5 could be muted but when you personal r/t load is diminishing (the cruise) then it should be monitored.
My personal controlling experience has included several occasions where ac under my control have inadvertantly,due to cockpit errors, ceased to hear ATC transmissions. Two of them were airliners who both caused considerable consternation and definitely were not monitoring 121.5. Of the military ac they nearly always responded to prod on 243.0 although I will always have fond memory of one our Atlantic cousins who managed to fly from 10W to Dover without answering any r/t calls, causing havoc in the London TMA, and then came on frequency to complain he hadn't been given his airway clearance.....
The ideal solution would be to provide a separate training frequency however there are a few points to consider....
1. You really need to mimic the auto triangulation system otherwise otherwise what training value are you getting out of the call).
2. Who should provide the service?
3. Who should pay?
The military bolted on their practice frequency on to their existing 243 UHF DF facilities and made use of generally existing facilities. This option is not quite so easy for the VHF system which was only really designed to stop CAS intrusions in the South of England (who said there wasn't a North South divide) Seeing as this system was financed by NATS who have now been privatised UK it probably unlikely they would fund it off their own bat.
My own view is the financial case for the ideal solution is unlikely to get past Gordo's treasury and NATS will argue it is outside their remit. But the need to introduce u/t pilot's to D&D's services so they realise that if they call on 121.5 there will be a highly trained, non-judgemental (couldn't be punt at anyone), controller who is there to help them is sufficiently important that we should learn to cope with the occasional inconvenience.
As to when you should listen to 121.5 in the UK perhaps a rule of thumb is when you are talking frequently to ATC and therefore really monitoring the ATC frequency then 121.5 could be muted but when you personal r/t load is diminishing (the cruise) then it should be monitored.
My personal controlling experience has included several occasions where ac under my control have inadvertantly,due to cockpit errors, ceased to hear ATC transmissions. Two of them were airliners who both caused considerable consternation and definitely were not monitoring 121.5. Of the military ac they nearly always responded to prod on 243.0 although I will always have fond memory of one our Atlantic cousins who managed to fly from 10W to Dover without answering any r/t calls, causing havoc in the London TMA, and then came on frequency to complain he hadn't been given his airway clearance.....
Last edited by Rickford; 27th Feb 2007 at 17:20.
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Hmmm, from many of the responses, it appeares that this is a UK problem.
Therefore, it would also appear that the UK should concur with the rest of the worlds ATC, and put this practise PAN nonsense to bed, permanently.
One wonders, when will they wake up?
Answers on a postcard.
Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.
Therefore, it would also appear that the UK should concur with the rest of the worlds ATC, and put this practise PAN nonsense to bed, permanently.
One wonders, when will they wake up?
Answers on a postcard.
Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.
Rubik101.
It's known he was over Birmingham because when he transmitted "pi$$ off practise pan" an auto-triangulation DF fix was immediately provided on him. Transfer that to the radar screen which sits next to the VDF screen and his SSR code/callsign conversion is readily available.
It's known he was over Birmingham because when he transmitted "pi$$ off practise pan" an auto-triangulation DF fix was immediately provided on him. Transfer that to the radar screen which sits next to the VDF screen and his SSR code/callsign conversion is readily available.
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Didley Dee (or someone else)..........
As this is not the first time this particular outfit has abused you and your colleagues why don't you let us know who they are ?
I can't see that it would do any harm, in fact it could have the opposite effect and make them think twice before being so rude and unprofessional.
Regards
FBW
As this is not the first time this particular outfit has abused you and your colleagues why don't you let us know who they are ?
I can't see that it would do any harm, in fact it could have the opposite effect and make them think twice before being so rude and unprofessional.
Regards
FBW
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The increasing trend of non emergency transmitions on 121.5 is going to defeat the purpose of having an emergency frequency at all. Eventually the majority,who have to sit there and listen to practice calls ,are going to deselect 121.5 and reselect only when they know its going to be used for the purpose for wich it was intended...Emergency.But thats going to be about 500miles from the coast and defeats the purpose of 121.5
Maybe they dont need high altitude aircraft monitoring 121.5 anymore?, maybe the land based system is better ?I dont know, but let us know,because for every pilot that actually complanes or reacts to unessesary transmitions on121.5 there are at least one thouand that feel the same way!!!
VP TAA
Maybe they dont need high altitude aircraft monitoring 121.5 anymore?, maybe the land based system is better ?I dont know, but let us know,because for every pilot that actually complanes or reacts to unessesary transmitions on121.5 there are at least one thouand that feel the same way!!!
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VPTAA said "The increasing trend of non emergency transmitions on 121.5 is going to defeat the purpose of having an emergency frequency at all. Eventually the majority,who have to sit there and listen to practice calls"
Why oh why do you lump non emergency transmissions on 121.5 with the VERY FEW practise calls in the UK. IT IS THE CAT guys and gals that account for 90% or so of the incorrect use. Go on tell me please why?
Why oh why do you lump non emergency transmissions on 121.5 with the VERY FEW practise calls in the UK. IT IS THE CAT guys and gals that account for 90% or so of the incorrect use. Go on tell me please why?
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Therefore, it would also appear that the UK should concur with the rest of the worlds ATC, and put this practise PAN nonsense to bed, permanently.
Of course, the USA doesn't file any differences with ICAO, does it?
Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.
Too true. One of these days the US will get "follow the lights" taxiway lighting like the UK and then LEX type accidents and runway incursions might happen a little less frequently.
Sadly, the ole dinosaur USA takes it's time to get over the "not made here" syndrome.
Of course, the USA doesn't file any differences with ICAO, does it?
Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.
Too true. One of these days the US will get "follow the lights" taxiway lighting like the UK and then LEX type accidents and runway incursions might happen a little less frequently.
Sadly, the ole dinosaur USA takes it's time to get over the "not made here" syndrome.
IT IS THE CAT guys and gals that account for 90% or so of the incorrect use. Go on tell me please why?
A large amount of traffic on 121.5 is from mis-selection of frequencies, i.e. trying to call your company on box 2. This is usually brought to a quick halt by others on the frequency as it is not deliberate; this sort of transmission is short and the content is such that it is easy to ignore. A practice emergency goes on for much longer and is hard to block out as there are many serious aviation related words used in the ensuing conversation.
I think practice emergencies are good for both the pilot and the controller and are something I would like to see continue in the UK. I do think we need another frequency for this as the UK is at odds with all the neighbours on this one...
Since it seems to be CAT that has the burning desire to monitor a frequency during the cruise (without interruption from distress calls, SAR operations, mandatory calls and training calls in the UK) and since it is also CAT that has apparently been shown to be misusing 121.5 the most perhaps it should be CAT that is allocated a new frequency.
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 26th Feb 2007 at 21:56.
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Just come in for my last night shift before leave 
As I walk in the door a CAT overflyer is treating us to piped music over 121.5......
Really dont understand the complaining about PP calls when there is so much more rubbish Tx over 121.5 by comparison.... surely that could do with being cleaned up first before getting at the authorised use by filed differences of 121.5 by London Centre & its PP calls?
If anyone is interested.....PP / TF calls made today on 121.5...... 4.........Time between each PP/TF call 57 mins, 3 hrs 20 mins and 2 hrs 59 mins. That my friends is a typical day for this time of year, I accept that there will be more per day in the summer months but it is insignificant over the year, when compared with the non essential tx made by CAT. Indeed PP/ TF calls have been reducing over recent years
2004 3772 equating to 10.3 a day
2006 2782 equating to 7.6 a day
Please bear mind that the figures above include UHF PP & TF calls which therefore inflates the numbers significantly as regards VHF use.
And before anyone asks no I dont have the stats for inadvertant non op calls on 121.5, we did go through a period of time last year logging them so that the CAA (I recall) could get an accurate picture on the PP vs CAT debate and those figures were at the basis of the report which demonstrated unequivically that CAT tx were far far in excess of PP & TF calls made by GA pilots exercising their legitimate right to use 121.5.
DD
As I walk in the door a CAT overflyer is treating us to piped music over 121.5...... Really dont understand the complaining about PP calls when there is so much more rubbish Tx over 121.5 by comparison.... surely that could do with being cleaned up first before getting at the authorised use by filed differences of 121.5 by London Centre & its PP calls?
If anyone is interested.....PP / TF calls made today on 121.5...... 4.........Time between each PP/TF call 57 mins, 3 hrs 20 mins and 2 hrs 59 mins. That my friends is a typical day for this time of year, I accept that there will be more per day in the summer months but it is insignificant over the year, when compared with the non essential tx made by CAT. Indeed PP/ TF calls have been reducing over recent years
2004 3772 equating to 10.3 a day
2006 2782 equating to 7.6 a day
Please bear mind that the figures above include UHF PP & TF calls which therefore inflates the numbers significantly as regards VHF use.
And before anyone asks no I dont have the stats for inadvertant non op calls on 121.5, we did go through a period of time last year logging them so that the CAA (I recall) could get an accurate picture on the PP vs CAT debate and those figures were at the basis of the report which demonstrated unequivically that CAT tx were far far in excess of PP & TF calls made by GA pilots exercising their legitimate right to use 121.5.
DD
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Dear D D how dare you! As I understand it Guard freq.is for demos of latest ring tones,chat between cabin crew,baseball scores(of course!) Cricket scores(For shame!!) Stupid cock crow noises at dawn wherever they are;and of course position reports from folk who transmitted inadvertentlyand got a go ahead from one of the above idiots. Very funny guys but I was trying to sleep!
Funny how very few of these calls are from U.K.pilots. Perhaps it is because they learn the correct use,and importance of 121.5 early in their training by practice?
Funny how very few of these calls are from U.K.pilots. Perhaps it is because they learn the correct use,and importance of 121.5 early in their training by practice?
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Let's stick to the point:
I go away for a couple of years and discover on returning that nothings changed when it comes to ill-conceived opinion on PPRUNE... oh and also not addressing the question!
a/ 121.5 is the emergency frequency;
b/ In the UK "Practice PANS" are permitted and encouraged;
c/ “Practice PANS” are actually rare events.
Anything else on 121.5 including, but not exclusively, chit chat, music, swearing, mistakes, etc… are all actual, real and illegal abuses of 121.5.
A “Practice PAN” in UK airspace on 121.5 is not an abuse of any kind. Accept it, live with it and you won’t stay a bitter, irritated “professional”[sic] pilot. Having moved through light and GA to get to commercial I don’t have a problem with it at all.
NATS stats show that approximately 90% of incorrect transmissions on 121.5 are by commercial pilots.
I wonder how many of you “professionals” still think “nnxxx is declaring an emergency” is a valid transmission?
I know for the record that some commercial pilots have never read CAP413.
a/ 121.5 is the emergency frequency;
b/ In the UK "Practice PANS" are permitted and encouraged;
c/ “Practice PANS” are actually rare events.
Anything else on 121.5 including, but not exclusively, chit chat, music, swearing, mistakes, etc… are all actual, real and illegal abuses of 121.5.
A “Practice PAN” in UK airspace on 121.5 is not an abuse of any kind. Accept it, live with it and you won’t stay a bitter, irritated “professional”[sic] pilot. Having moved through light and GA to get to commercial I don’t have a problem with it at all.
NATS stats show that approximately 90% of incorrect transmissions on 121.5 are by commercial pilots.
I wonder how many of you “professionals” still think “nnxxx is declaring an emergency” is a valid transmission?
I know for the record that some commercial pilots have never read CAP413.
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Distress on Distress
I have to agree with Capt H,
I too have spent many an hours listening to 121.5 VHF along with HF Guard frequencies whilst on the Search and Rescue and witnessed and involved such incidents where the so called professional set have interfered with Rescue operation communication for simple mistakes (Listen, don't talk or advise thats someone else's job)
I have to congratulate a few though who down to their Professionalism aircraft and and lives that might not have been saved.
I remeber one such afternoon between myself and a passing aircraft communications were passed to the relevent agencies a lost aviator was able to return safley with no loss of aircraft or life (Note a commercial aircraft helping a training GA aircraft!).
Isn't that how aviation is supposed to be?
Capt H Peacock
I listened in disbelief the other day whilst a rescue operation, which as it happens was being conducted in French, was continuallly interrupted by several of these self-appointed 'point 5 police.
They should be ashamed.
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About 10 years ago, I got lost in a GA light single low over the English Channel in IMC with no IMC-suitable equipment. My PanPanPan Relay to D&D was via CAT, one of whom provided invaluable assistance to me.
One other CAT berated my CAT relay friend for using guard for non-essential use! Unbelievable.
Happy skiing, DDM
One other CAT berated my CAT relay friend for using guard for non-essential use! Unbelievable.
Happy skiing, DDM
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http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf
The numbers speak for themselves: 1% PP&TF versus 75% erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots.
The numbers speak for themselves: 1% PP&TF versus 75% erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots.
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Returning from sunny Spain a few days ago. While crossing the Bay of Biscay a certain well know British carrier was talking to one of their franchise operators if they were able to take a higher flight level so they could go up also. This whole conversation lasted approx. 4 minutes because the well known airline was desperately explaining why he wanted to climb from FL340 to FL360. And no, there was no turbulence in the area.
I do appreciate that sometimes you make the wrong selection and therefor transmit on guard. But if you are going to have whole conversations that have nothing to do with flight safety than stay of GUARD. As long as CAT make these non-essential calls on GUARD, i don't think we have a valid reason to deny GA the use of GUARD for a practice pan.
Just my 2p's
I do appreciate that sometimes you make the wrong selection and therefor transmit on guard. But if you are going to have whole conversations that have nothing to do with flight safety than stay of GUARD. As long as CAT make these non-essential calls on GUARD, i don't think we have a valid reason to deny GA the use of GUARD for a practice pan.
Just my 2p's