London City
Guest
Posts: n/a
London City
Heard a guy the other day requesting an ambulance on arrival at EGLC for a crew member whilst working Thames Radar,the aircraft had to wait 50 mins on the ramp for a ambulance to arrive.
What the hell would happen if he had stuffed it on the runway? 1 hour wait?
What the hell would happen if he had stuffed it on the runway? 1 hour wait?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Pennine Boy
Before you start disparaging JFC, you need to get a grip on some facts, those being that ATCOs seperate, you navigate and Paramedics, errm, medic.
We may be a talented bunch, but ambulance drivers we are not. Give your bloody handling agent a call...or do you look down your nose at them too??
Before you start disparaging JFC, you need to get a grip on some facts, those being that ATCOs seperate, you navigate and Paramedics, errm, medic.
We may be a talented bunch, but ambulance drivers we are not. Give your bloody handling agent a call...or do you look down your nose at them too??
Guest
Posts: n/a
Steady on there 160to4. In an emergency, you are our first port of call, especially if it is a crew member. Surprised you find helping preserve life so distasteful... it is part of your job.
Handling agents have no legal responsibility to even maintain a listening watch. You do. Try being just a little more helpful, huh?
Handling agents have no legal responsibility to even maintain a listening watch. You do. Try being just a little more helpful, huh?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think 160 is pointing out that.....
The ATC role in medical requests is very limited.
Besides expediting your arrival , all ATC can do is to pass the initial message and critical updates to the Airport Authority ,in accordance with local orders.
Others decide on an appropriate response given resources available at the time.
The ATC role in medical requests is very limited.
Besides expediting your arrival , all ATC can do is to pass the initial message and critical updates to the Airport Authority ,in accordance with local orders.
Others decide on an appropriate response given resources available at the time.
Guest
Posts: n/a
so is it beyond atc's capability to pick up a telephone and call an ambulance then? as someone else said they are are first contact and in a situation like that any time saved is a step closer to survival of the patient.
and please don't anybody say "it's not my responsbility" when it comes to saving a life, then we all have at least a moral responsability. perhaps a little flexability in this matter would be possible. and besides at lcy, how often do you ever get a medical emerg ?
------------------
IT'S BETTER TO BE ON THE GROUND, WISHING YOU WERE IN THE AIR - THAN IT IS TO BE IN THE AIR, WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND !
and please don't anybody say "it's not my responsbility" when it comes to saving a life, then we all have at least a moral responsability. perhaps a little flexability in this matter would be possible. and besides at lcy, how often do you ever get a medical emerg ?
------------------
IT'S BETTER TO BE ON THE GROUND, WISHING YOU WERE IN THE AIR - THAN IT IS TO BE IN THE AIR, WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND !
Guest
Posts: n/a
BoeingBoy
The point is, if everyone "involved" in a medical emergency was to call an ambulance, then you'd have the ambulance fleet of 6 counties in attendance.
The simple fact of the matter is that after exactly such an instance, ATC's responsibility has been redefined as simply to handle the traffic as expeditiously as possible. Your handling agent is there for all other arrangements.
Thankyou Nemo for interpreting my response quite correctly.
The point is, if everyone "involved" in a medical emergency was to call an ambulance, then you'd have the ambulance fleet of 6 counties in attendance.
The simple fact of the matter is that after exactly such an instance, ATC's responsibility has been redefined as simply to handle the traffic as expeditiously as possible. Your handling agent is there for all other arrangements.
Thankyou Nemo for interpreting my response quite correctly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
As someone with vague knowlege in the matters of the ambulance service concerned: I am sure it would be better that *someone* picked up the phone, as soon as possible! Really, all you ATCer's out there, does it take that much time to pick up a phone? Whether it's your responsibility or not! If you were ambling around one day and someone had a heart attack in the tower, would you sit back and say "not my responsibility, talk to the Airport Authorities"?
The fact is that Central Ambulance Control would surely appreciate two calls, rather than none. The ambulance might get there in ten minutes through heavy London traffic, but what good is that if the a/c has been sitting on the ramp for an hour??
That doesn't mean that every pax in the building should whip out their mobiles (:P), but is it that much for someone in the tower to take themselves over to a phone and dial 999?
-tacc
[This message has been edited by Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl (edited 25 June 2001).]
The fact is that Central Ambulance Control would surely appreciate two calls, rather than none. The ambulance might get there in ten minutes through heavy London traffic, but what good is that if the a/c has been sitting on the ramp for an hour??
That doesn't mean that every pax in the building should whip out their mobiles (:P), but is it that much for someone in the tower to take themselves over to a phone and dial 999?
-tacc
[This message has been edited by Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl (edited 25 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
160to4dme.
so is it not far better to have 6 ambulances turn up, "as everybody has got envolved" rarther than no ambulances because "it is somebody else's responsability" and nobody has bothered. besides i think that you will find that after the first ambulance has been requested and logged that any subsequent callers for an ambulance would politely be told that the matter is already in hand. i know i have been, when i have called for ambulance being a witness to a road accidient. oh, and what would happen if you divert to an airport you are unknown at and had no handling agent? why would it be so difficult to take 30seconds to say "ambulance requested at ******** airport, situation unknown".
------------------
IT'S BETTER TO BE ON THE GROUND, WISHING YOU WERE IN THE AIR - THAN IT IS TO BE IN THE AIR, WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND !
so is it not far better to have 6 ambulances turn up, "as everybody has got envolved" rarther than no ambulances because "it is somebody else's responsability" and nobody has bothered. besides i think that you will find that after the first ambulance has been requested and logged that any subsequent callers for an ambulance would politely be told that the matter is already in hand. i know i have been, when i have called for ambulance being a witness to a road accidient. oh, and what would happen if you divert to an airport you are unknown at and had no handling agent? why would it be so difficult to take 30seconds to say "ambulance requested at ******** airport, situation unknown".
------------------
IT'S BETTER TO BE ON THE GROUND, WISHING YOU WERE IN THE AIR - THAN IT IS TO BE IN THE AIR, WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND !
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am amazed at the attitude of some controllers towards this topic. If an ambulance is requested for a particular flight, the way to handle the situation is to ensure that an ambulance has been called by SOMEONE. If this involves ATC phoning the handling agent or company to confirm the action taken, well so be it. If the company is unaware of the problem then it is usually a fairly simple matter for ATC to call an ambulance direct. If time is of the essence then I think that ATC should make the call anyway - there will be no recriminations if the Ambulance Service are already aware of the situation. If a controller is busy, a supervisor or maybe an ATSA can take the necessary action.
Guest
Posts: n/a
May I suggest a simple solution for pilots involved in medical emergencies?
Make a 'Pan' call (perfectly legitimate), and say 'I require you to make a 999 call for a paramedic ambulance, confirm you will do this'. ATC will, I am sure, act as required.
I mention 'paramedic' ambulance, by the way, as I understand that there is a distinction, and that this is the appropriate thing to say if life is in danger, as opposed to, say, a broken leg or whatever. Any senior medics please correct me if I'm wrong, but this was told to me by a medic.
------------------
'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Make a 'Pan' call (perfectly legitimate), and say 'I require you to make a 999 call for a paramedic ambulance, confirm you will do this'. ATC will, I am sure, act as required.
I mention 'paramedic' ambulance, by the way, as I understand that there is a distinction, and that this is the appropriate thing to say if life is in danger, as opposed to, say, a broken leg or whatever. Any senior medics please correct me if I'm wrong, but this was told to me by a medic.
------------------
'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gentlemen, lets calm down !!!
As an Area ATCO, here are my actions if a pilot reports a 'sick passenger' to me.
My first question to him is he declaring a PAN. My way of saying, are you in need of a priority?
If his response is yes, then he gets a priority approach and other aircraft (quite rightly) get a slight delay. If he refuses to declare a PAN (i've had it happen) - then fine join the queue.
Once he has declared the PAN my next question is 'Are you arranging medical services?' Depending on his response. I either leave him to it. As he has the'sick passenger' and can pass on the current state of the casualty to his handling agent.
OR if he wants me to do something, then I pass on the request to the Aerodrome ATCO, who will notify the ambulance service by the quickest means possible. The Aerodrome ATCO will also notify the aerodrome fire service who are very well versed in First Aid and will, I am sure be on hand when the aircraft has landed.
That is what happens.
On the subject of 'sick passenger' - Perhaps someone can explain why an aircraft with a '''sick passenger''' on board, declares a PAN at 15West then continues flying across Ireland, South Wales to land at Heathrow. When if someone is so ill as to require a priority approach, the Captain thinks it OK to overfly and not divert to Shannon, Dublin, Cardiff ?? OR in another case that has happened to me - fly all the way down the UK to Heathrow instead of landing at the numerous suitable airfields in Scotland, and 'tup north ???
As an Area ATCO, here are my actions if a pilot reports a 'sick passenger' to me.
My first question to him is he declaring a PAN. My way of saying, are you in need of a priority?
If his response is yes, then he gets a priority approach and other aircraft (quite rightly) get a slight delay. If he refuses to declare a PAN (i've had it happen) - then fine join the queue.
Once he has declared the PAN my next question is 'Are you arranging medical services?' Depending on his response. I either leave him to it. As he has the'sick passenger' and can pass on the current state of the casualty to his handling agent.
OR if he wants me to do something, then I pass on the request to the Aerodrome ATCO, who will notify the ambulance service by the quickest means possible. The Aerodrome ATCO will also notify the aerodrome fire service who are very well versed in First Aid and will, I am sure be on hand when the aircraft has landed.
That is what happens.
On the subject of 'sick passenger' - Perhaps someone can explain why an aircraft with a '''sick passenger''' on board, declares a PAN at 15West then continues flying across Ireland, South Wales to land at Heathrow. When if someone is so ill as to require a priority approach, the Captain thinks it OK to overfly and not divert to Shannon, Dublin, Cardiff ?? OR in another case that has happened to me - fly all the way down the UK to Heathrow instead of landing at the numerous suitable airfields in Scotland, and 'tup north ???
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lineup - no ambulance based @ LCY AFS.
We are only 5-7 mins away from the nearest ambulance station even in the rush hours, assuming the swing bridge is not open.....
The fire guys have got first aiders amongst them.
If a request for medical assitance is made ATC pass it to the Airport Authority - they have direct contact numbers to Ambulance Control.
This sounds more like London Ambulance Service "prioritising" their calls :-(
[This message has been edited by JuicyLucy (edited 25 June 2001).]
We are only 5-7 mins away from the nearest ambulance station even in the rush hours, assuming the swing bridge is not open.....
The fire guys have got first aiders amongst them.
If a request for medical assitance is made ATC pass it to the Airport Authority - they have direct contact numbers to Ambulance Control.
This sounds more like London Ambulance Service "prioritising" their calls :-(
[This message has been edited by JuicyLucy (edited 25 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, talking from personal experience, this is how the conceived "no care" attitude evolved.
On one occassion, an inbound requested medical assistance for a sick passenger. This message was relayed from approach to the tower, who then contacted the fireservice.
The fireservice then alerted their own paramedic team who contacted the local ambulance service for assistance.
Meanwhile, the inbound crew had contacted their handling agent, who thoughtfully dialled 999 for the emergency services to attend...they told no-one of this action.
Airport Ops were notified, who also contacted the airport fire service.
Unknown to airport Ops, ATC had liased with the fire service paramedics for the aircraft to be met on a runway exit, as the aircraft had airstairs.
Whilst the Ops manager sat at the arrival gate waiting on the arrival,he became anxious that their was no medical presence.
He therefore radioed the fire service to confirm they were on their way to the stand.
The fire service replied "negative, we're already attending a medical emergency."
He instructed the fire service to call for an ambulance, which they did.
Long after the one and only medical emergency had been dealt with by the airport paramedics, 3 outside ambulances arrived.
Understandably, the local area health authority wanted financial recompense for the unecessary call-outs.
Once the dust had settled, blame for the fiasco was quickly put down to the fact that there was no clear line of action.
Therefore, the responsibilities were clarified, and I am pretty sure most UK airfields now adopt a similar procedure, that being:
After a request for medical assistance, ATC notify the airport fireservice (or airport paramedics if it is a distinct operation). If known, the handling agent should also be notified. All further action of a non-ATC matter becomes the responsibility of the Medical services, the Airport Operator and the Handling Agent.
RawData, of course as an ATCO, I would go out of my way to help, but please, don't expect us to do things which are the published as the responsibility of others; my initial reaction was to PennineBoy's question as to what would have happened had the aircraft been an aircraft accident as opposed to one requesting medical assistance.....totally different situations, a grossly unfair comparison, and a disgusting slant at the guys and girls who do their best to provide what is, in my humble opinion, a damn good service for you all.
On one occassion, an inbound requested medical assistance for a sick passenger. This message was relayed from approach to the tower, who then contacted the fireservice.
The fireservice then alerted their own paramedic team who contacted the local ambulance service for assistance.
Meanwhile, the inbound crew had contacted their handling agent, who thoughtfully dialled 999 for the emergency services to attend...they told no-one of this action.
Airport Ops were notified, who also contacted the airport fire service.
Unknown to airport Ops, ATC had liased with the fire service paramedics for the aircraft to be met on a runway exit, as the aircraft had airstairs.
Whilst the Ops manager sat at the arrival gate waiting on the arrival,he became anxious that their was no medical presence.
He therefore radioed the fire service to confirm they were on their way to the stand.
The fire service replied "negative, we're already attending a medical emergency."
He instructed the fire service to call for an ambulance, which they did.
Long after the one and only medical emergency had been dealt with by the airport paramedics, 3 outside ambulances arrived.
Understandably, the local area health authority wanted financial recompense for the unecessary call-outs.
Once the dust had settled, blame for the fiasco was quickly put down to the fact that there was no clear line of action.
Therefore, the responsibilities were clarified, and I am pretty sure most UK airfields now adopt a similar procedure, that being:
After a request for medical assistance, ATC notify the airport fireservice (or airport paramedics if it is a distinct operation). If known, the handling agent should also be notified. All further action of a non-ATC matter becomes the responsibility of the Medical services, the Airport Operator and the Handling Agent.
RawData, of course as an ATCO, I would go out of my way to help, but please, don't expect us to do things which are the published as the responsibility of others; my initial reaction was to PennineBoy's question as to what would have happened had the aircraft been an aircraft accident as opposed to one requesting medical assistance.....totally different situations, a grossly unfair comparison, and a disgusting slant at the guys and girls who do their best to provide what is, in my humble opinion, a damn good service for you all.