London City
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Red Spitfire Driver,
Perhaps unfortunate that your post followed mine. As always, I am quite calm enough. Aside from that, if you are as you suggest, can I have a go, please? (Never flown a Spit).
160to4,
I think the length of your post, and the detail required to explain, highlights the inefficiency of the set-up.
Many AFS are first aid-trained, yet if I am on the ramp with a medical emergency (three timnes in the last four years), they are not even put on Local Stby, as no specific request for AFS attendance has been made. This is scandalous. My advice/suggestion above stands as it is specific and ensures the attendance of an ambulance when one is needed. BTW I am an ex-ATCO.
I would add to it that it is worth telling ATC that you also require AFS attendance to ensure that these competent and trained people will be on hand, rather than sipping tea whilst yur pax dies simply because the procedures do not require their being called out.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Perhaps unfortunate that your post followed mine. As always, I am quite calm enough. Aside from that, if you are as you suggest, can I have a go, please? (Never flown a Spit).
160to4,
I think the length of your post, and the detail required to explain, highlights the inefficiency of the set-up.
Many AFS are first aid-trained, yet if I am on the ramp with a medical emergency (three timnes in the last four years), they are not even put on Local Stby, as no specific request for AFS attendance has been made. This is scandalous. My advice/suggestion above stands as it is specific and ensures the attendance of an ambulance when one is needed. BTW I am an ex-ATCO.
I would add to it that it is worth telling ATC that you also require AFS attendance to ensure that these competent and trained people will be on hand, rather than sipping tea whilst yur pax dies simply because the procedures do not require their being called out.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
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The request for an ambulance was passed on to Airport Ops as soon as we received it. Airport Ops confirmed within 2 minutes that an ambulance had been called.
Any delay after that has absolutely nothing to do with ATC.
If you have any further comlpaints or questions please contact either:
a) Airport Operations London City.
b) The London Ambulance Service.
It should also be mentioned that our highly skilled fire service provide first aid, and were in attendance from the moment the doors opened on stand.
As for crashing at City, I wouldn't advise it however many ambulances are waiting on the western apron! It would probably be very painful, and leave me with lots of forms to fill out, which I don't enjoy doing!
[This message has been edited by Expedite your backtrack! (edited 26 June 2001).]
Any delay after that has absolutely nothing to do with ATC.
If you have any further comlpaints or questions please contact either:
a) Airport Operations London City.
b) The London Ambulance Service.
It should also be mentioned that our highly skilled fire service provide first aid, and were in attendance from the moment the doors opened on stand.
As for crashing at City, I wouldn't advise it however many ambulances are waiting on the western apron! It would probably be very painful, and leave me with lots of forms to fill out, which I don't enjoy doing!
[This message has been edited by Expedite your backtrack! (edited 26 June 2001).]
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On the subject of ambulance cover, I can remember having all these discussions whilst on duty as Heathrow Supervisor when the BAA removed the only cover at the Worlds Busiest (are they still without?) about fifteen years ago.Incidentally, if you do call the LAS as I once did out of frustration dont expect them to know anything about your particular airport as they seem to use the A to Z for navigation.
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JL makes an interesting point by suggesting: "This sounds more like London Ambulance Service "prioritising" their calls".
If an ambulance controller is short of paramedic vehicles I suppose it goes without saying that someone bleeding to death, having a heart attack or experiencing breathing difficulites would be given priority over a casualty with a dislocated shoulder or abdo pains.
I think we need more facts before being too critical of the LAS which does a first class job most of the time despite being affected by health authority cutbacks.
Does anyone know the extent of the injuries to the arriving crew member? Also, how were the injuries caused?
PS I do not work for the LAS, but have been grateful for their very speedy assistance on several occasions both to help me and others whom I have found seriously injured at the scenes of RTAs.
If an ambulance controller is short of paramedic vehicles I suppose it goes without saying that someone bleeding to death, having a heart attack or experiencing breathing difficulites would be given priority over a casualty with a dislocated shoulder or abdo pains.
I think we need more facts before being too critical of the LAS which does a first class job most of the time despite being affected by health authority cutbacks.
Does anyone know the extent of the injuries to the arriving crew member? Also, how were the injuries caused?
PS I do not work for the LAS, but have been grateful for their very speedy assistance on several occasions both to help me and others whom I have found seriously injured at the scenes of RTAs.
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Ok, it doesn't happen only in the U.K.
I had a case about 2 years ago at HAM. I advised the controller that we had a pax that just collapsed and were requesting medics upon arrival. Landed and waited. And waited. We finally let the "normal" pax out. The ambulance finally arrived, more than 20' after block on. Asked as to why, the medics told us they were on another case. By then luckily our sick pax was back to live, thanks to the well trained and cool F/As.
As to the ATCOs advising to call our handling agent and to arrange with them, I humbly don't think it is NOT a good idea. There you are, as in our case, already in the approach, and one of the pilot has to "quit the flight" to try to rise the handling agent. Most of the time they are not in the office, too busy or just not interested. During this time the other pilot is taking clearances, flying the craft, changing frequencies, and is unable to configure the aircraft, not a very sound situation indeed.
So, now and in the future, I will be happy to be able to count on any assistance given by ATC, thanks guys
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
I had a case about 2 years ago at HAM. I advised the controller that we had a pax that just collapsed and were requesting medics upon arrival. Landed and waited. And waited. We finally let the "normal" pax out. The ambulance finally arrived, more than 20' after block on. Asked as to why, the medics told us they were on another case. By then luckily our sick pax was back to live, thanks to the well trained and cool F/As.
As to the ATCOs advising to call our handling agent and to arrange with them, I humbly don't think it is NOT a good idea. There you are, as in our case, already in the approach, and one of the pilot has to "quit the flight" to try to rise the handling agent. Most of the time they are not in the office, too busy or just not interested. During this time the other pilot is taking clearances, flying the craft, changing frequencies, and is unable to configure the aircraft, not a very sound situation indeed.
So, now and in the future, I will be happy to be able to count on any assistance given by ATC, thanks guys
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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
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Picked this thread up late in the day.
However, I agree with several earlier comments that ATC have a role in prioritising med emergencies - through a moral duty, if nothing else. Knowing the characters in LCY VCR, I'd fully believe they reacted in the correct and appropriate manner.
Well done Chaps & Chapettes, good work as ever.
However, I agree with several earlier comments that ATC have a role in prioritising med emergencies - through a moral duty, if nothing else. Knowing the characters in LCY VCR, I'd fully believe they reacted in the correct and appropriate manner.
Well done Chaps & Chapettes, good work as ever.
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Expedite your backtrack
I met the cpt of the Air france 146 flight from Paris to LCY the other day,and he had nothing but praise for the ATCOs at LCY on the way they handled his flight.
He was concerned about the time the ambulance took to get to the a/c.
A/C on chocks at 9.18Z ambulance on chocks at10.10. Fire Brigade on attendance as doors opened but did not want to move the cabin crew member as she was complaining of abdominal pains.
I met the cpt of the Air france 146 flight from Paris to LCY the other day,and he had nothing but praise for the ATCOs at LCY on the way they handled his flight.
He was concerned about the time the ambulance took to get to the a/c.
A/C on chocks at 9.18Z ambulance on chocks at10.10. Fire Brigade on attendance as doors opened but did not want to move the cabin crew member as she was complaining of abdominal pains.
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I had a similar incident a few years ago at another UK 'International' airport. We declared a PAN while on the ground due to a very seriously ill passenger, and requested ATC for an emergency (cardiac) ambulance. We taxied back to the stand at some speed and then waited bloody ages for the ambulance to arrive. It turned out that ATC had used an admin phone line to call our airline office and spoken to some untrained clerk about our emergency request. There then ensued a debate in the office about whether the airline would have to pay for the ambulance and whose budget it would come out of. Eventually an ambulance was called. It arrived pretty quickly at the airport and was then held up because the jobsworth said it didn't have an airside pass and nobody had thought to arrange for an airside escort.
During the subsequent enquiry, ATC HQ management tried to hide behind the exact and pedantic interpretation of a PAN call, and tried to pass the buck on to airport management, airline management, in short everybody except themselves. I think that the 'just following procedures' excuse is wrong. The procedures need changing. ATC should have a direct line to the ambulance service; notifying airport and airline staff should come second. Some untrained admin clerk and airport ops staff should not be involved in an emergency chain of communication.
[This message has been edited by Hew Jampton (edited 02 July 2001).]
During the subsequent enquiry, ATC HQ management tried to hide behind the exact and pedantic interpretation of a PAN call, and tried to pass the buck on to airport management, airline management, in short everybody except themselves. I think that the 'just following procedures' excuse is wrong. The procedures need changing. ATC should have a direct line to the ambulance service; notifying airport and airline staff should come second. Some untrained admin clerk and airport ops staff should not be involved in an emergency chain of communication.
[This message has been edited by Hew Jampton (edited 02 July 2001).]
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Pennine Boy, I share your concerns about the length of time it took for an ambulance to arrive on gate but this very probably had nothing to do with ATC, the airport authority or their procedures. Nor, necessarily, ambulance prioritisation. Do you know what other calls they were dealing with that day or what the traffic situation was like outside the airport?
Being an airport ATCO and having had to deal with such medical emergencies on several occasions I am sure the ATCO DID find the time to pick up the phone. As with other emergencies (including aircraft accidents) most airports have a clear procedure to follow.
At the airport I work at this involves using the direct "emergency line" to the Airport switchboard operator. They then, I hope, spring immediately into action and call the relevant services. One of the reasons it is carried out this way is our local switchboard understand what is going on when we have to keep saying standby because aircraft who are unaware of the fact I am on the phone keep calling - this might add confusion to a direct call to an outside agency. Once we have made this call we are confident an ambulance will be on its way! As to the use of AFS - we have been told this is not a legitimate use of AFS and as they are not under our control we have to respect that - although I'm sure many of us would call and suggest it.
I can assure you that if it took 50 mins plus for an ambulance to arrive at the gate the ATCO would have been just as frustrated - we are human beings too you know. Furthermore, I know of an ATCO who during one incident went beyond his remit and "demanded" attendance - he subsequently received a complaint from the Airport Authority and a one-sided interview from the boss!
Being an airport ATCO and having had to deal with such medical emergencies on several occasions I am sure the ATCO DID find the time to pick up the phone. As with other emergencies (including aircraft accidents) most airports have a clear procedure to follow.
At the airport I work at this involves using the direct "emergency line" to the Airport switchboard operator. They then, I hope, spring immediately into action and call the relevant services. One of the reasons it is carried out this way is our local switchboard understand what is going on when we have to keep saying standby because aircraft who are unaware of the fact I am on the phone keep calling - this might add confusion to a direct call to an outside agency. Once we have made this call we are confident an ambulance will be on its way! As to the use of AFS - we have been told this is not a legitimate use of AFS and as they are not under our control we have to respect that - although I'm sure many of us would call and suggest it.
I can assure you that if it took 50 mins plus for an ambulance to arrive at the gate the ATCO would have been just as frustrated - we are human beings too you know. Furthermore, I know of an ATCO who during one incident went beyond his remit and "demanded" attendance - he subsequently received a complaint from the Airport Authority and a one-sided interview from the boss!
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These are all good reasons for acting as I suggested above.
Chatting about this the other day brought up the suggestion, for airborne emergencies, of contacting 121.5 with a similar, clear, instruction that a particular service is required. One presumes that the D&D people have telephone links to regional ambulance controllers, but there is doubt over their being aware of regional boundaries.....
I suppose it is worth re-emphasising that frustrating difficulties may occur in communication, which is the cause of my posts above, and/or in deployment of the ambulance and its arrival.
Obviously, we feel frustrated at the fact that a 'patient' is waiting for treatment; we are also aware of the knock-on effects on the schedule.
If ambulance authorities are prioritising calls and our sick passenger or crew member s waiting because of lack of capacity in the ambulance service, this is really a political issue to do with taxation, budgets, and funding.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
Chatting about this the other day brought up the suggestion, for airborne emergencies, of contacting 121.5 with a similar, clear, instruction that a particular service is required. One presumes that the D&D people have telephone links to regional ambulance controllers, but there is doubt over their being aware of regional boundaries.....
I suppose it is worth re-emphasising that frustrating difficulties may occur in communication, which is the cause of my posts above, and/or in deployment of the ambulance and its arrival.
Obviously, we feel frustrated at the fact that a 'patient' is waiting for treatment; we are also aware of the knock-on effects on the schedule.
If ambulance authorities are prioritising calls and our sick passenger or crew member s waiting because of lack of capacity in the ambulance service, this is really a political issue to do with taxation, budgets, and funding.
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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
