pk 777 and flybe dash 8 collide at man
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Last time something like this happened was in vancouver with an A330 and a Dash 8. Wingtip clipped the tail - Dash was there most of the season debating whether it was a write off.
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"We understand that the Pakistan International Airways aircraft had been given permission to taxi past the Flybe aircraft provided that there was sufficient wingtip clearance.
Surely whether the dash 8 had pulled forward to the holding point is irrelevant in this case. If the PIA flight was cleared to pass "if there was sufficient wing tip clearance" then the fact that the two collided is not the fault of the dash 8 crew. The aircraft trying to get behind it should have stopped and requested that the dash 8 move forward to allow additional room if there was any doubt, or alternatively tell ATC that they would hold position until the other aircraft had moved. At least that is what I would have done in the same circumstances.
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AAIB report following the XLA/Bmi Baby collision at MAN concluded.......
"...........as a result of insufficient separation between the two aircraft.
Notwithstanding any ATC clearance, the Air Navigation Order places the responsibility for collision avoidance on the ground with the commander of the aircraft"..........
However, the report also identifies inconsistencies in ATC procedures, layout, HF issues, although these were not deemed to be causal.
"...........as a result of insufficient separation between the two aircraft.
Notwithstanding any ATC clearance, the Air Navigation Order places the responsibility for collision avoidance on the ground with the commander of the aircraft"..........
However, the report also identifies inconsistencies in ATC procedures, layout, HF issues, although these were not deemed to be causal.
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Serious note and tone now
I've checked a number of publications on the subject of stop bars, whether lit or painted, and can find nothing written about the distance from one, one should stop.
There's plenty of attention given to not crossing a stop bar, unless cleared, but unless someone cleverer than me can say, there is little written about where to stop.
Guidance? Best practice? Common sense? Pragmatism?
Do any of our current pointy-end drivers have a view on this? When there's a taxiway crossing behind, is that a factor in where you stop?
Any Heathrow crews seen similar instances at 27L holds: been a couple of scrapes there over the years.
Is it now time for agreement on the distance to stop from a stop bar to be reached, so that passing traffic may be reasonably assured that the appropriate clearance is maintained? See ICAO Annex 14 Chapter 3 I think?
Sir George Cayley
There's plenty of attention given to not crossing a stop bar, unless cleared, but unless someone cleverer than me can say, there is little written about where to stop.
Guidance? Best practice? Common sense? Pragmatism?
Do any of our current pointy-end drivers have a view on this? When there's a taxiway crossing behind, is that a factor in where you stop?
Any Heathrow crews seen similar instances at 27L holds: been a couple of scrapes there over the years.
Is it now time for agreement on the distance to stop from a stop bar to be reached, so that passing traffic may be reasonably assured that the appropriate clearance is maintained? See ICAO Annex 14 Chapter 3 I think?
Sir George Cayley
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A few years ago, a 340 took the tail right off a DH8-315 at Johannesburg. The captain told me that it felt and sounded like a car crash. They were parked at F intersection RW21R waiting to line up and the 340 attempted to pass behind for full length.
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Do any of our current pointy-end drivers have a view on this?
Makes me feel a little more comfortable.
If I'm blocking the taxiway, that's someone else's problem, not mine!
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Sir George
CAP 637 States:- "Upon reaching a Taxi Holding Position identifying a Taxi Clearance Limit, the Pilot should stop the aircraft AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the Taxi-Hold Position Marking, ensuring that no part of the aircraft protrudes beyond the markings".
"When following a taxi route, pilots are expected to keep a good lookout and are responsible for taking ALL possible measures to avoid all collisions with other aircraft and vehicles".
Lets not forget the golden rule of keeping the flightdeck over the centreline at all times.
The Flybe aircraft was holding in excess of 7.5 metres short of the holding point with the flight deck not positioned over the centre line.
I am aware it does not take away the responsibility of the PIA Aircraft but there are further issues here that I am sure the AAIB will look at.
After reading some of the previous posts it is clear Pilots are still doing their own thing and stopping their aircraft where THEY think and not where they should.
CAP 637 States:- "Upon reaching a Taxi Holding Position identifying a Taxi Clearance Limit, the Pilot should stop the aircraft AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the Taxi-Hold Position Marking, ensuring that no part of the aircraft protrudes beyond the markings".
"When following a taxi route, pilots are expected to keep a good lookout and are responsible for taking ALL possible measures to avoid all collisions with other aircraft and vehicles".
Lets not forget the golden rule of keeping the flightdeck over the centreline at all times.
The Flybe aircraft was holding in excess of 7.5 metres short of the holding point with the flight deck not positioned over the centre line.
I am aware it does not take away the responsibility of the PIA Aircraft but there are further issues here that I am sure the AAIB will look at.
After reading some of the previous posts it is clear Pilots are still doing their own thing and stopping their aircraft where THEY think and not where they should.
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Manchester is the worst airport I have ever taxied around.Atc assume everybody is well versed with the layout and there is no logic to the taxiway naming system.There is not a straight line in the whole place.I am not surprised this has happened again.It is about time the whole place was looked at very carefully and all the taxiways redrawn before this airfield is black starred!
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Thanks for the pointer Hudson
But I have an original signed copy of the Visual Aids Handbook - Rare!
It is not a regulatory document. In fact, it falls below guidance material as it is a handbook (and quite an antique too) Although still on the CAA website, I guess anyone who entered this profession in the last 10 years or so may not have ever seen one.
Memo to the CAA - Isn't it about time you considered a reprint?
With all due respect, may I ask again what advice pointy-end drivers receive about this? Presumably, sim time is precious and there are many conflicting issues that compete for training time.
I would agree though that Manchester's taxiway system scores 10/10 for complexity. Wonder if they could run a competition to rename the taxiways in a more user friendly way?
Sir George Cayley
It is not a regulatory document. In fact, it falls below guidance material as it is a handbook (and quite an antique too) Although still on the CAA website, I guess anyone who entered this profession in the last 10 years or so may not have ever seen one.
Memo to the CAA - Isn't it about time you considered a reprint?
With all due respect, may I ask again what advice pointy-end drivers receive about this? Presumably, sim time is precious and there are many conflicting issues that compete for training time.
I would agree though that Manchester's taxiway system scores 10/10 for complexity. Wonder if they could run a competition to rename the taxiways in a more user friendly way?
Sir George Cayley
Last edited by Sir George Cayley; 18th Feb 2007 at 19:31.
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Correct me if I am wrong , but with ref to the PIA claim that the Flybe didn`t move up to the stop bar , surely it is a LIMIT not a TARGET and each pilot will stop at a distance from the stopbar that they are happy with and it is the responsibility of the taxing a/c to avoid parked traffiic
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Last time something like this happened was in vancouver with an A330 and a Dash 8. Wingtip clipped the tail - Dash was there most of the season debating whether it was a write off.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of this: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...01X01366&key=2
That was one of our Dash 8s. Collision occured on the ramp in Portland (KPDX). The Dash was just recently returned to service.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of this: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...01X01366&key=2
That was one of our Dash 8s. Collision occured on the ramp in Portland (KPDX). The Dash was just recently returned to service.
We in ATC give taxi instructions. If you cannot be bothered to ask for help if you are not sure where to go, we can only assume that you know the way
You guys and girls can issue all the instructions you like, if the layout is crap, its leads to misunderstandings, poor SA because you are concentrating on the taxiway chart..and looking for non existent signage, all whilst worrying about missing a turn.
As for not being bothered...thats a bit rich....its all we can do to avoid the leader vehicles that dart around. Most of us know the way...but even then, the poor layout is a recipe for disaster.
Opnot, its nice to see that you feel you are part of the solution
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And while we are at it...
Why only Manchester?
There are plenty of other confusing airports to taxy on.
Having performed a standard approach with standard callouts - procedures - lighting systems, you get onto an egoist's paradise, where every airport has a different (and no doubt better) way of naming taxyways, a different parking system and differing radio procedures.
If MAN ever gets sorted out - once again please get the BIG picture, involve JAA / FAA and get all these places standardised.
Meantime, via Outer, Mike and 3B, hold short of 22R or should it be via New Scenic, Link and the Cooler and don't read back...
Flying is nice - once you are airborne.
FC.
There are plenty of other confusing airports to taxy on.
Having performed a standard approach with standard callouts - procedures - lighting systems, you get onto an egoist's paradise, where every airport has a different (and no doubt better) way of naming taxyways, a different parking system and differing radio procedures.
If MAN ever gets sorted out - once again please get the BIG picture, involve JAA / FAA and get all these places standardised.
Meantime, via Outer, Mike and 3B, hold short of 22R or should it be via New Scenic, Link and the Cooler and don't read back...
Flying is nice - once you are airborne.
FC.
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Perhaps they could instal sensors on the wings like they do on the bumpers of cars now. Could have a few more noises going off and you could tell just how close you are getting 
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