LoCo airlines busting minima in LVP's at STN?
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Interesting, as we have the Alert Height of 1000'RA for the -NG too!
JW411
Indeed, to be considered 'relevant' for landing we use the 'above 60kts' rule too. JAR-OPS states this;
JAR-OPS 1.405 Commencement and continuation of approach
(f) The touch-down zone RVR is always controlling. If reported and relevant, the mid point and stop end RVR are also controlling. The minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 125 m or the RVR required for the touch-down zone if less, and 75 m for the stop-end. For aeroplanes equipped with a roll-out guidance or control system, the minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 75 m.
Note. “Relevant”, in this context, means that part of the runway used during the high speed phase of the landing down to a speed of approximately 60 knots. [Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01]
again, my bold
So I think you are mis-understanding the 60kts bit. If you are ABOVE 60kts as you enter the mid-point (or stop-end), then those RVR minimums apply also (they become "controlling").
PP
Interesting, as we have the Alert Height of 1000'RA for the -NG too!
JW411
Indeed, to be considered 'relevant' for landing we use the 'above 60kts' rule too. JAR-OPS states this;
JAR-OPS 1.405 Commencement and continuation of approach
(f) The touch-down zone RVR is always controlling. If reported and relevant, the mid point and stop end RVR are also controlling. The minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 125 m or the RVR required for the touch-down zone if less, and 75 m for the stop-end. For aeroplanes equipped with a roll-out guidance or control system, the minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 75 m.
Note. “Relevant”, in this context, means that part of the runway used during the high speed phase of the landing down to a speed of approximately 60 knots. [Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01]
again, my bold
So I think you are mis-understanding the 60kts bit. If you are ABOVE 60kts as you enter the mid-point (or stop-end), then those RVR minimums apply also (they become "controlling").
PP
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Interesting, as we have the Alert Height of 1000'RA for the -NG too!
JW411
Indeed, to be considered 'relevant' for landing we use the 'above 60kts' rule too. JAR-OPS states this;
JAR-OPS 1.405 Commencement and continuation of approach
(f) The touch-down zone RVR is always controlling. If reported and relevant, the mid point and stop end RVR are also controlling. The minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 125 m or the RVR required for the touch-down zone if less, and 75 m for the stop-end. For aeroplanes equipped with a roll-out guidance or control system, the minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 75 m.
Note. “Relevant”, in this context, means that part of the runway used during the high speed phase of the landing down to a speed of approximately 60 knots. [Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01]
again, my bold
So I think you are mis-understanding the 60kts bit. If you are ABOVE 60kts as you enter the mid-point (or stop-end), then those RVR minimums apply also (they become "controlling").
PP
Interesting, as we have the Alert Height of 1000'RA for the -NG too!
JW411
Indeed, to be considered 'relevant' for landing we use the 'above 60kts' rule too. JAR-OPS states this;
JAR-OPS 1.405 Commencement and continuation of approach
(f) The touch-down zone RVR is always controlling. If reported and relevant, the mid point and stop end RVR are also controlling. The minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 125 m or the RVR required for the touch-down zone if less, and 75 m for the stop-end. For aeroplanes equipped with a roll-out guidance or control system, the minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 75 m.
Note. “Relevant”, in this context, means that part of the runway used during the high speed phase of the landing down to a speed of approximately 60 knots. [Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01]
again, my bold
So I think you are mis-understanding the 60kts bit. If you are ABOVE 60kts as you enter the mid-point (or stop-end), then those RVR minimums apply also (they become "controlling").
PP
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My understanding is that an aircraft that is at Alert Height with a reduced redundancy and well positioned on the ILS can continue with its approach and landing simply because it has been flight tested that it can do so under the most adverse conditions.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I am non stating that it would not be possible but merely that it has not been certified.
The same reasoning counts for overweight automatic landings…..possible….but not certified.
There is a very good reason behind the numbers that reflect limitations.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I am non stating that it would not be possible but merely that it has not been certified.
The same reasoning counts for overweight automatic landings…..possible….but not certified.
There is a very good reason behind the numbers that reflect limitations.
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My understanding is that an aircraft that is at Alert Height with a reduced redundancy and well positioned on the ILS can continue with its approach and landing simply because it has been flight tested that it can do so under the most adverse conditions.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I am non stating that it would not be possible but merely that it has not been certified.
The same reasoning counts for overweight automatic landings…..possible….but not certified.
There is a very good reason behind the numbers that reflect limitations.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I am non stating that it would not be possible but merely that it has not been certified.
The same reasoning counts for overweight automatic landings…..possible….but not certified.
There is a very good reason behind the numbers that reflect limitations.
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Originally Posted by AIMS by IBM
My understanding is that an aircraft that is at Alert Height with a reduced redundancy and well positioned on the ILS can continue with its approach and landing simply because it has been flight tested that it can do so under the most adverse conditions.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
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Originally Posted by AIMS by IBM
My understanding is that an aircraft that is at Alert Height with a reduced redundancy and well positioned on the ILS can continue with its approach and landing simply because it has been flight tested that it can do so under the most adverse conditions.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
It is obvious that if you start to do this from 1000 ft that the failure may cause a deviation that grows as time progresses.
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
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Originally Posted by Pilot Pete
The Alert Height is where, if above it you can do fault rectification, switching etc but below which you don't. If you have the capability to rectify a problem before the Alert Height you may do so and continue the approach, bearing in mind your Autoland/ LVO capability. If you have passed the Alert Height then you should NOT trouble-shoot and fault rectify. You ascertain any required increase in minima due to the fault and continue to that or you go around.
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
It occurs to me that you may be mixing two concepts.
A height stipulated by your airline that allows you to go into a split cockpit setting (Checklist by one flying by the other) and the Alert Height.
These are two different concepts and are not related.
To put it in a nutshell:
1.App ban: you can continue if RVR go below
2.Alert Height: You can continue with your app with same mininma for certain technical failures only if you use the certified alert height.
3.Split cockpit Height: Lowest height were you can switch etc...
There is a temptation to set 2 and 3 at the same value but in my opinion that is illegal.
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Originally Posted by Pilot Pete
The Alert Height is where, if above it you can do fault rectification, switching etc but below which you don't. If you have the capability to rectify a problem before the Alert Height you may do so and continue the approach, bearing in mind your Autoland/ LVO capability. If you have passed the Alert Height then you should NOT trouble-shoot and fault rectify. You ascertain any required increase in minima due to the fault and continue to that or you go around.
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
I see you are in TEXAS, so I guess you would follow the relevant FARs.....
PP
It occurs to me that you may be mixing two concepts.
A height stipulated by your airline that allows you to go into a split cockpit setting (Checklist by one flying by the other) and the Alert Height.
These are two different concepts and are not related.
To put it in a nutshell:
1.App ban: you can continue if RVR go below
2.Alert Height: You can continue with your app with same mininma for certain technical failures only if you use the certified alert height.
3.Split cockpit Height: Lowest height were you can switch etc...
There is a temptation to set 2 and 3 at the same value but in my opinion that is illegal.
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Originally Posted by AIMS by IBM
3.Split cockpit Height: Lowest height were you can switch etc...
There is a temptation to set 2 and 3 at the same value but in my opinion that is illegal.
"If any of the following conditions apply:
- Master Caution Illumination
- Autopilot Disengagement
- No Flare Annunciation
- Stab Out of Trim Light
Reset the alert, continue the approach, attempt rectification, re-consider Autoland/LVO capability."
We are not talking about QRH drills like an hydraulic failure....
If below the Alert Height
"Instrument switching is NOT permitted. A go-around should be made for:
- Engine malfunctions resulting in loss of thrust
- Failure of a required airport facility
- Failure of a required aicraft system
- Continuous ILS deviation warning above 200'RA
- Any ILS deviation below 200'RA
Continuation of the approach is recommended in the event of the following:
- Engine Fire warning, without loss of thrust
- Pilot incapacitation - consider fuel, weather, diversion availability and aircraft serviceability
PP
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Originally Posted by AIMS by IBM
3.Split cockpit Height: Lowest height were you can switch etc...
There is a temptation to set 2 and 3 at the same value but in my opinion that is illegal.
"If any of the following conditions apply:
- Master Caution Illumination
- Autopilot Disengagement
- No Flare Annunciation
- Stab Out of Trim Light
Reset the alert, continue the approach, attempt rectification, re-consider Autoland/LVO capability."
We are not talking about QRH drills like an hydraulic failure....
If below the Alert Height
"Instrument switching is NOT permitted. A go-around should be made for:
- Engine malfunctions resulting in loss of thrust
- Failure of a required airport facility
- Failure of a required aicraft system
- Continuous ILS deviation warning above 200'RA
- Any ILS deviation below 200'RA
Continuation of the approach is recommended in the event of the following:
- Engine Fire warning, without loss of thrust
- Pilot incapacitation - consider fuel, weather, diversion availability and aircraft serviceability
PP
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has anyone got any idea what the degraded minima would be with downgraded/failed elements of the cat 3 lighting system(s)? -I think this is the crux of the problem,
with b/rgds
with b/rgds
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has anyone got any idea what the degraded minima would be with downgraded/failed elements of the cat 3 lighting system(s)? -I think this is the crux of the problem,
with b/rgds
with b/rgds
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Pilot Pete,
EGSS NOTAM:
DUE RESURFACING, RWY CL AND TDZ LIGHTING NOT AVBL. RWY LEAD ON/OFF WHERE AFFECTED WILL BE REPLACED BY BLUE EDGE LIGHTS. 02 APR 05:00 UNTIL 31 OCT 05:00
so this means no CATIII autoland at night right?
EGSS NOTAM:
DUE RESURFACING, RWY CL AND TDZ LIGHTING NOT AVBL. RWY LEAD ON/OFF WHERE AFFECTED WILL BE REPLACED BY BLUE EDGE LIGHTS. 02 APR 05:00 UNTIL 31 OCT 05:00
so this means no CATIII autoland at night right?
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Pilot Pete,
EGSS NOTAM:
DUE RESURFACING, RWY CL AND TDZ LIGHTING NOT AVBL. RWY LEAD ON/OFF WHERE AFFECTED WILL BE REPLACED BY BLUE EDGE LIGHTS. 02 APR 05:00 UNTIL 31 OCT 05:00
so this means no CATIII autoland at night right?
EGSS NOTAM:
DUE RESURFACING, RWY CL AND TDZ LIGHTING NOT AVBL. RWY LEAD ON/OFF WHERE AFFECTED WILL BE REPLACED BY BLUE EDGE LIGHTS. 02 APR 05:00 UNTIL 31 OCT 05:00
so this means no CATIII autoland at night right?
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Runway operating on reduced distance (I think 1900m) mon-wed night and full close sat and sun night anyway. ILS is still CAT 3 (when required, sometimes CAT 1) but I think JAR Ops minima are 300m by day and 550m by night without CL and TDZ. On the night in question I understand that the weather was quickly down below 550m as far as 200m and stayed that way until after 0500z. Some backsides to be smacked methinks.
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Runway operating on reduced distance (I think 1900m) mon-wed night and full close sat and sun night anyway. ILS is still CAT 3 (when required, sometimes CAT 1) but I think JAR Ops minima are 300m by day and 550m by night without CL and TDZ. On the night in question I understand that the weather was quickly down below 550m as far as 200m and stayed that way until after 0500z. Some backsides to be smacked methinks.