Ryanair pilot demoted after incident

[jet_noseover]

Faire d'income

I believe it would be a fair statement; the AAIU exhausted their resources of interviewing the crews and "witnesses" before publishing their final report.
Also, I am certain they must have talked to and listened to enough ..(insert appropriate) to arrive to the conclusion they did. As a result, the skipper pays the price of his unfortunate choices.


Jambo Buana

Please, this is not about bashing an Airline or a particular captain.
As many here already addmitted they screwed up one time or another.

Let's keep it safe up there.

Eirefly

Thank you for your input. Welcome to the PPRuNe

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Originally Posted by Eirefly

At this stage the 737 did what became a descending base final with a severe angle of bank (estimate 80 degrees) and this time it appeared very low, it was a frighting sight and we were very concerned for it.

Who's estimate is this Eirefly, yours? Read the report, your estimate of 80 degrees 'angle of bank' is substantially higher than the 'momentary occurence' of max roll that was recorded by the DFDR.

I don't doubt you were alarmed by what you witnessed but be careful, you don't want to come across as a journo on here!

[theamrad]

(estimate 80 degrees).........I witnessed 737's port wing almost straight up

DFDR:31.99deg max.....mmmm

BitMoreRightRudder and Faire d'Income, strange you should say that. But no need for witness statements etc,etc. Maybe the AAIB are reading here instead - and will consider giving the FDR in question a 'damned good' kick to get get it working properly

Eirefly - don't take it personally - I just could not resist


Not to cast any aspersions as to the professionalism or otherwise of Ryanair pilots in general (excluding reference to this case) - I can only state that the last occurrence which I personally witnessed (long time ago - separation between departing and landing a/c type occurance), which, had it been reported, would have been on the incident (pos. serious) scale. It involved a 'company' aircraft('greeny bits one'), ATC(Tower position), and a Ryanair aircraft. The company aircraft caused it - the controller didn't help/made it worse by not issuing affirmative instructions(depending on how nasty one would want to be) and the Ryanair one avoided it becoming (by timely action) more than something on the incident scale only. Just my 2 cents worth.


In this case, the PF's thinking/actions defy my reason - and thats without reference to SOPs even. But then, there are lessons for everyone in all occurances. I think he should consider himself bloody lucky to have gotten away with dumping to the rh seat only. I wonder what the ratio of scared witless to incandescent with rage was amongst the Bishopstown residents.(Said with (slightly)concerned tone - NOT sarcasm).

[Say Mach Number]

Just to clarify a few points re sops that have been raised.

FR SOPs do not allow for straight and level flight with landing flap extended (Flap 30/40)
When flying circling approaches they are flown in the gear down flap 15 config.

Also the Captain was not just guilty of the above but several other sop violations.

1. Non sop brief ref Visual app. All non precision approaches (inc circling and visuals) must be briefed seperately and in a set format in addition to the standard jeppy brief prior to TOD. This was brought in to get away from 'theres the runway lets go visual call visual' type stuff. Dont want to bore but this 'double' brief just covers a few simple points about where the a/c will be configured etc. The raisond'etre for this is so as the PM is in the loop at all times.

2. If flying a visual there is a 'landing gate of 500'AGL'. Ie everything must be in the slot by this point. It was not but they still continued. A go-around should have been initiated.

3. A go-around should have been initiated are the key words. In this situation this is the only possible outcome as allowed in these circumstances.

4. And then there is the flying level with landing flap extended.

As is the case in most incidents/accidents this all started long before the airplane started the app. A less than adaquate brief for a visual and so on.

Lesson learnt - HOPEFULLY

[Eirefly]

Originally Posted by Faire d'income

If the above were true did you give this information to the AAIU as would be your duty as a pilot? What you add to the tale is very serious and disagrees somewhat with the final report.

Yes I wasnt interviewed but the pilot flying that day was.

Bitmorerightrudder, I am not a journo and I did read the report I was just stating what it looked like from a first hand point of view.

[Dave Gittins]

Is the AAIB Report a little short ?

Hmmmmm. I am a little surprised the the AAIB didn't interview Eirefly - surprised be blowed ... absolutely amazed. The LH seat guy in the light aeroplane was no doubt well enough occupied with his own landing to maintain a full and continuous view of the 737 but Eirefly in the RH seat was the guy with the grandstand seat and the opportunity to use it. Actually I am also surprised there was no mention of a witness report at all.

Had this been a UK AAIB report, especially if they heard the comments that visually it appeared to be 80 degrees of bank .. I am sure they would have done a much longer report and included some calculations as to what bank angle was likely to have been reached for a turn of the known radius at (say) 150 kts.

At least that would give an idea whether eirly wa right and maye the FDR did need a good kick .. it's bad enough not having the CVR, and worth checking that what data you do have passses the "gross error" check.

There can't have been many holes in the cheese not lined up that day.

[Eirefly]

It is short alright but what else can you add to it thats going to change the outcome?? Nothing really. The DFDR is right, obviously not me. But when you see things like that in a split second its hard to judge.

We went on with our business that day and it was a month or so after that the PF (owner of a/c) was contacted about it. They said they were happy with what he said and never mentioned talking to me or the 3rd pilot.

Sure they probably would have got away with it if it wasnt for all the complaints from people in the Bishoptown area to the Gardai.

[unconcerned]

Rather than giving Eirefly a quizzing, perhaps this is one to file in the memory banks for a (possible) future occasion....

Just a thought.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Yes I agree with unconcerned. Eirefly has given us his account of what happened during the incident and that is one hell of an unforgettable account from probably the best seat in the house on a fine clear day. OK so the bank angle was out but overall his account was just amazing.

Having had a good read of the AAIU report (from my humble perspective of a CPL holder with 300+ hours) I have one comment - how the hell did the captain in question keep his job? It's bad enough to go busting SOP's and ignoring basic CRM (slight understatement there) but to go flying an orbit in that fashion and with 30 degrees of flap and gear down is just pure ****e airmanship. Eirefly nearly did get to witness a smoking hole in the ground.

I must admit when I heard about this incident initially (when it was reported on prrune on the day it happened) I pooh poohed the whole thing. I completely discounted that this could possibly happen and put it down to non-aviation bods on the ground getting a bit over excited. How completely wrong I was.

[F900EX]

Ryanair need to keep learning...

They had a serious incident going in to Stockholm in 2004 again down to poor CRM and stress.

Commander on that flight had 5000hrs and F/O had 700hrs

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?...g=ENG&loc=1280

[speckles]

Must add my two-pennies worth here. This crew got into one of those situations where events ran away with them. I've certainly got myself into situations where all of a sudden, I didn't have the capacity - even the capacity to throw it away - to do anything other than ride the rollercoaster to wherever it was going. I feel sorry for the chap who got demoted (there but for the grace, etc etc) but when a head has to roll, the Captain has to carry the can.
I do wish people wouldn't be so anti Ryanair. Having worked for them at one time I can tell you the overall standard of piloting there is extremely high. It has to be because they operate into all sorts of small and often ill equipped airfields with lots of very tricky non-precision approaches. It was the most demanding flying I've ever done and I suspect beyond the abilities of quite a lot of pilots. Despite various "incidents" Ryanair have operated succesfully in this environment for many years and it would be nice if some of their more vocal critics were prepared to recognise that.

[fox niner]

Come to think of it, I suppose the guys/gals in the tower at EICK had a good view of it.

Reading the report I couldn't help thinking of Bud Holland's go-around and orbit in his B52.

Same weather conditions, A Go-around, a tight turn to land, low altitude flying, steep cockpit CRM gradient......But luckily a different outcome in Cork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Y-gtXDP6s

[MarkD]

foxniner - by the sound of things the tower couldn't see much since they were below the hill? Now someone working in the top floor of County Hall on the other hand...

[theamrad]

Had this been a UK AAIB report, especially if they heard the comments that visually it appeared to be 80 degrees of bank .. I am sure they would have done a much longer report and included some calculations as to what bank angle was likely to have been reached for a turn of the known radius at (say) 150 kts.

Any/all witnesses, esp any with aviation related experience, should have been interviewed - the valid and accurate can always be teased out later. As for the max bank angle - the investigator accepts 30.99 deg from the DFDR - and WHY would he not? There's no suggestion in the report that a "bank angle" alert sounded in the cockpit. In any case, flap 30 + gear down + 30 deg bank = not really great climb performance anyway!

Personally I think the single worst aspect of the incident was the PF ignoring the PFD's repeated callouts for alt loss while in the orbit. What is CRM for otherwise!

[Ignition Override]

Was there any sort of 'leans' (somato..) involved, or was this in the daytime with ok visibility?

[EI-MICK]

if my memory serves me correct it was one of the nicest days of all of last year,perfect weather

[Gipsy Queen]

"The key is to use your experience to recognize your mistakes early and not push a bad situation".

Viking - this is indeed wisdom and we all (I hope!) recognise it as such. The stark reality of it must have been very plain to the P2 on this occasion - again, "I hope". A lesson well learnt.

Nevertheless, I imagine the pressures of commercial operation and the degree of public scrutiny, (much increased since I hung up my helmet), to which modern transport operations are subjected encourage one to press on in situations where, given the time for proper consideration, one should say "This is a nonsense - we're going to start over".

As already has been observed, arm chair captaincy is not difficult and whilst I agree with ZS340 about peer-bashing (and have posted similar comments on this subject before), I do think this particular piece of flying, as reported here, was shameful.

[captainpaddy]

I know this pont has been touched on already but...

While I am only going on what I have been told and have no experience of working for RYR, isn't really just the case, even though some of us are too proud to admit it, that the RYR management culture is one that inevitably leads to their pilots making decisions for the purpose of damage limitation in an attempt to save their jobs. If you have screwed up an approach, there is huge pressure to rectify it in the most expeditious manner. A quick orbit would be prefferable to vectoring to a 5 mile final as in the latter case it is likely that someone will be phoning you asking why you caused an unnecessary 5 minute delay to the flight.

Pilots should be (and are in other companies) allowed to make sensible decisions based on the actual events of the day. If an approach becomes destabilised a decision to attempt a new approach would go unchallenged by management provided the subsequent approach was successful and provided that you don't show signs of developing a history of getting it wrong. Effectively allowing for the first mistake (within reason) and recovery without challenge. The RYR model will challenge everything. This is why a pilot will continue an obviously unmanageable approach way beyond a sensible point for regrouping, with the distant hope that it will somehow come right in the end and save him from the dreaded phonecall/tea and biscuits/P45, etc. The last three RYR incidents have all involved Captains as PF continuing poor approaches to a ridiculously advanced stage before making a hasty and poorly executed recovery.

Every single one of us screw up. We have all been, or will be at some stage, involved in an poor approach that will need to be abandoned and a second attempt made. Companies should be able to allow us the authority to make these decisions without challenge. RYR do not. This leads directly to pilots being pushed into making silly mistakes such as this latest one. I am sure that the PF involved would have behaved differently if he were working for someone else at the time.

[RAT 5]

Captain Paddy,

"While I am only going on what I have been told and have no experience of working for RYR,....................................

The RYR model will challenge everything. This is why a pilot will continue an obviously unmanageable approach way beyond a sensible point for regrouping,.............................................

Companies should be able to allow us the authority to make these decisions without challenge. RYR do not. This leads directly to pilots being pushed into making silly mistakes such as this latest one. I am sure that the PF involved would have behaved differently if he were working for someone else at the time."

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the above statements seem an enormous leap to, perhaps, a preconceived conlcusion, especially considering the first one.

[captainpaddy]

RAT 5

I agree entirely that it is nothing more than my opinion and perhaps I should be attempting to make a more general statement about the industry in general rather than a specific company. However, while I am going on what I have been told, and have heard similar scenarios elsewhere, I have never heard anything as severe about other companies. Nonetheless, I accept that my view may be wrong.

Since TFN in 1977 the industry has been struggling to remove commercial and other pressures from the flightdeck. CRM was born and has been evolving ever since. I feel that RYR (and admittedly, perhaps other companies to) have taken us all back in time.