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Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.

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Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.

Old 21st Jan 2007, 11:16
  #21 (permalink)  
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What is the real world?

Originally Posted by boeing-man
The captain might not have been ideal but the FO certainly has to grow up and see what the real world is....

Best of luck to all.
I respect your thoughtful concerns.
I have come up with an idea when I got your reply.
What is the real world that The pilots are supposed to see.
Being beaten by the Mafia or given up arguing with frauds?
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 11:53
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Originally Posted by Kit d'Rection KG
.. but does it help if western pilots arrive and try to make eastern pilots fly the western way, or should we be helping them to fly the eastern way, but make it safer? Discuss, with particular attention to the fact that eastern pilots have no understanding of or feel for the 'western way'.
BWAHAHAHAHAH!!
And what, pray tell, is the "western way" of flying vs the "eastern way"? Keeping it upright vs turning it into a smoking hole, which as mentioned KAL at one point did with regularity? Actually being able to fly an aircraft with hands and feet vs rote and repetition? Problem solving and CRM vs theoretical knowledge and face-saving?
Sorry for the thread creep, but I have too many colleagues flying for other "eastern" carriers, for example a certain TPE-based one, where the left seat can barely keep the wings level without their "western"-style right-seat-nanny, to let THAT comment go unchallenged...
Carry on.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 07:09
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real world def

Originally Posted by faiser
I respect your thoughtful concerns.
I have come up with an idea when I got your reply.
What is the real world that The pilots are supposed to see.
Being beaten by the Mafia or given up arguing with frauds?
The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning! )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'

As always, best to all.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 08:00
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don't tell me that you didn't know anything about this outfit before you joined, it has been written on all walls. you sound just like the guys surprised beeing managed by a mentally sick ceo at qr or having to do crm at home in solitary confinement and on line for ek.
these companies and a lot of their cp's or tri/e's simply have a archaic perception of how to run professional airline operations. every now and then a smokin hole gives a pause to this scam, but it continues shortly after as long as their countries are run the same way.
 
Old 22nd Jan 2007, 09:13
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diplomatically challenged...

Originally Posted by boeing-man
The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning! )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'

As always, best to all.
Hi, it is me again ,the F/O who flew with the captain. I would like to add just a couple of words before the captain's name. Diplomatically challenged. And Faiser wasn't asking for the definition of your so called REAL WORLD..

Last edited by simyoke; 22nd Jan 2007 at 09:27. Reason: clarification
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 09:20
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Originally Posted by turtleneck
don't tell me that you didn't know anything about this outfit before you joined, it has been written on all walls. you sound just like the guys surprised beeing managed by a mentally sick ceo at qr or having to do crm at home in solitary confinement and on line for ek.
these companies and a lot of their cp's or tri/e's simply have a archaic perception of how to run professional airline operations. every now and then a smokin hole gives a pause to this scam, but it continues shortly after as long as their countries are run the same way.
You can say that again. I knew it all along...but what would you do if the situation gets bad enough to comprimise the safety of an aircraft?
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 12:48
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from the neighborhood

First of all,
I feel really sorry for F/O who folded his wings.

It is a shame and disgrace for Korean Pilot culture. But I saw it several times.
No body can deny that there is a problem in culture not only in KAL but also most of company in Korea.

F/O is treated like a servant for captain like old time in military. It was the way they used to live.
Some of captain even can’t do shopping without F/O. why? Ha Ha Ha……Well…what do you think?

The first mission for F/O in destination?
He should rent a car for captain. Hard to believe? Well…… I know it is non sense but it is true.

The most important thing in line operation is not your flying skill but your service skill to captain.

Call them (especially when you are in training) for every meal time.
Follow wherever captain want to go.
You should even cook in your hotel room when they couldn’t find Korean restaurant.
( Thanks for the instant rice. It save one of F/O duty in layover.!!!! )

If you can satisfy captain then it doesn’t matter whether you drink all night before flight. Well…must be a tired flight because captain will sleep all the way on the pacific and you should do everything on your duty. But what the hell……You give good impression from your service to captain and they will evaluate you as a nice F/O and good personality. NO PROBLEM IN LINE OPERATION.

I don’t know where it comes from.
Funny thing is KAL’s neighborhood doesn’t make any difference. (or worse?)

Western pilot?
Well……..old Chinese said “if you are playing around black color, you color will be changed to black”
It is not a problem of individual person but a problem of total system. The CRM never be in place until the last F/O is treated as a REAL PILOT.

There were……cause I’m not sure it is still exist or not…….annual report against expat captain’s attitude which company asked to selected local pilot.

Be careful. When KAL or AAR doesn’t need anymore expat pilots, that report will be an axe on your foot.
Sorry bro, what you have gone through. But never give up. You may can get another airplane in some better place out of Korea.

Good luck.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 12:54
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Originally Posted by boeing-man
The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning! )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'
As always, best to all.
Thank you for the definition of the real world.
It's been 7 years to be an FO. I've never thought of each captain who flew with me is an object which needs diplomatic approach or conversation to set the tone for safety or good CRM through my career.
I don't like redundancy ,but as you know well ,I'd like to mention that proper call-outs and advices come out from the good relationship between two crew-the captain and FO-especially from FOs. We do not have enough time to share our own ideas diplomatically when we face to go around.
Have a good one, Sir.

Last edited by faiser; 23rd Jan 2007 at 10:45. Reason: correction
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 14:11
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nolimitholdem
Must say firstly I am surprised the "politically correct police" haven't yet tried to knee-cap you regarding your post.
Secondly it is very seldom a post simply impresses the hell out of me so I have to respond - short, succinct, straightforward and sooooo true!

It comes down to your own personal outlook - I believe CRM is the single greatest step forward (in terms of human factors) in aviation over the last 30 years.
The culture of Asia is resistent because of their history; from my limited experience I believe Japan is 15-20 years away from achieving real overall benefits from the CRM concept, Korea 25-40 years away and China ???
Does this mean all "western" pilots accept, and work well with, CRM??
Absolutely not - however those that do not are in the minority.
Does this mean all "eastern" pilots reject, and fail to see the benefits in, CRM??
Absolutely not - however (sadly) those that do (or are allowed to) are also in the minority.
Does this require leadership from the management groups in Asia to push this concept simply to achieve better safety - yes.
Will it happen - maybe, but veeeerly slowly as the "old" mentality has to move out to allow the "new" mentality in and that also assumes that the concept of CRM has been allowed to be considered and thought about.

I have always found it (sadly) amuseing - it wasn't the management/leadership group in KAL who decided they were killing too many passengers and try to rectify this (unfortunate!) position but the insurance companies who forced them!

However I digress and/or ramble - loved the post !
galdian
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 19:36
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Originally Posted by galdian
It comes down to your own personal outlook - I believe CRM is the single greatest step forward (in terms of human factors) in aviation over the last 30 years.
Sadly, that's just not true. Not even nearly true. The reduction in the accident rate is down to replacing older 'less safe' aircraft and environments with newer 'safer' ones. CRM has had no appreciable impact on the accident rate.

(Sorry, this is easy to demonstrate with graphs, not so straightforward to do in words).
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 20:49
  #31 (permalink)  
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I think I have to say I disagree totally with your last post, Sir.

CRM in all it's variations has made masive difference to the way many airlines fly today. The list of accidents where poor CRM led to the last link in the chain are widespread.

Granted, the increased technology of modern aircraft is wonderful (not that I've experienced it yet being stuck on an old dog), but unless you autoland every time, you still need stick and rudder skills, especially in chanllenging weather conditions. It's these times, when the second pair of eyes, allowed to point out errors and help the operation is so vital.

IMHO, the only way to change Far Eastern practices is to employ a lot of Expat Skippers to allow the young F/Os to flourish and gain the confidence and ability to do their job properly. Perhaps some nice Aussie F/Os to let the old school local Captains know just what they can do with their luggage and car rental paperwork helps too. Unfortunately, all this MUST come from Management, and putting F/Os on CRM courses as part of their training and then forcing them to work under traditional practices is just nasty, and would cause many cases like the one topping this thread.

You can roll a -400 into the ground just as easily as a 707, and the F/O telling the P1 he's got it wrong in time is still the only way to prevent these kind of accidents.

Simyoke, Faiser, best of luck in your future careers, guys with your attitude (irrespective of how well you know your manuals and hand fly) is crucial to maintaining an undecurrent of CRM skills. Don't give up.
 
Old 22nd Jan 2007, 21:05
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CRM

Not sure I agree Kit. Last year of the 26 fatal airline crashes the main causal factor of 11 was human factors, 5 CFIT, 6 tec/maint and 4 unknown. Surely the better the crew function together the less likely that human factors are to play a role in such disasters happening.

We all fly and most of us have flown with people we don’t like, but being professional we deal with it. However there are times when it is all but impossible to do so and it does compromise the safety of the flight.

CRM, getting on with people, understanding peoples motivations – what ever you want to call it, does help. The openness to be able to say – “I’m not sure that is right…” is of massive importance.

The reduction of the accident rate has generally fallen since the 1950s due to more than just replacing older aircraft. Yes technology has improved, but so has training and a part of that is CRM. If I remember correctly, up until last year CFIT was the leading cause of ac fatalities. In the US, CAST felt that CRM was a valuable part of avoiding this and thus was included in CRM training. It is to soon to say if this is a direct link but I’m sure it didn’t hurt.

I am not stating that CRM is a panacea for all ills of the flight deck, but can make a flight pass with greater ease.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 22:29
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The first premise of utmost importance for CRM

Yes, CRM is extremely important however, unless the highest level of mutual respect comes before CRM it won't do any good.
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 22:43
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EY and EK

simyoke,
Have you considered joining some of your compatriots in Etihad or Emirates? Just did an assesment with one of your compatriots and he was hired with one of the middle east airlines.
Cheers
NG
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 23:40
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Kit
Happy to agree to disagree however infairness I did say in terms of "human factors."
Certainly new and improved equipment and hardware (aircraft, radar services etc) have had a positive impact and so, I maintain, has the concept of CRM.
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Old 23rd Jan 2007, 14:09
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from the neighborhood

Well…….
CRM is surely important factor.
But don’t get me wrong.

I don’t think hiring more western expat captain doesn’t help anything. Cause you are an outsider and don’t have to fly into fire.
I appreciated for tons of advices from civilized western mind expat captains who work in troubled Eastern airliners.
But funny thing is when they approach troubled instructor pilot or chief pilot, they changed their face and doesn’t say much about CRM against stubborn old Eastern IP or LCP.
If you against them, you should pack your bag again.

Let’s me tell you something.

I think more than half of (or most of) F/O in KAL or AAR were trained their initial course from civilian flight school( US, Australia…..). Naturally they used to fly in civilized western way.
But their dream about airline pilot is totally collapsed when they stepped in line operation.

It must be a another problem of hegemony in Korean aviation society.

Don’t preach CRM to poor F/O who already falls in desperation. If you want to say CRM,go to IP, LCP or Management.

Paradoxically There were no problem in CRM (except crash some old airplane ) for creepy IP, LCP until western educated F/O has big portion of crew.
“Yes, Sir” was the only correct reply what F/O can tell.
Can you understand what I mean?

I guess another way to solve this problem is lower western airlines bar like Korea.

Why we need JAA or CAA license even though there is ICAO license? Why we need European passport to work? Why we should have working permit even before we have job in USA or other country?
If we can do that, I also be a good idea that millions of expat F/Os or Captains work with old fashioned guys. It will be really interesting!

I know it will never happen. It is not easy matter. And beyond our subject. ha ha ha…..

but If we can exchange pilot easily, maybe the Korean government and management will realize something.


And bear in mind. Not like western pilot, if Korean pilot leave KAL or AAR, they never can go back to Korea. Be careful to say “then why don’t you leave?” it means he should stay out of korea rest of his life. The consequence is not simple for them.
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Old 29th Jan 2007, 05:57
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Question for Mr. Ko

Mr. Ko, Sung Hyuk,

I read with interest, your reason for resigning from KAL and would like to make a comment: It appears from your first letter to PPRUNE that Capt. Lee gave you a bad time primarily because you did not phone him in his room and ask him to go out to eat and drink with you. If that was the ONLY reason for his actions, despicable as they were, you as a Korean national were no doubt aware that the KAL hierarchy demanded that you show respect for your captain by complying with the established system, right or wrong. My questions to you are, why did you not call him, even to make an excuse such as you were not feeling well and what did you tell him when he told you that you should have called him? Did you apologize for causing him to lose face or were you so tired of the ‘system’ that you lost respect for him and antagonized him?

For readers of my comments please understand that I am not condoning Capt. Lee’s actions. He displayed very poor CRM, abused his Line Check Pilot (LCP) authority and deceitfully influenced another LCP to look unfavorably on Mr. Ko during a subsequent line check. In my opinion Capt. Lee should be fired as an LCP, period.
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Old 29th Jan 2007, 08:52
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<sigh>, I guess the days of the chameleon First Officer are far from over.
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Old 29th Jan 2007, 17:57
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mcdoer

Cant be serious.and I thought I am a pain in the rear end
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Old 29th Jan 2007, 19:43
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Originally Posted by mcdoer
Mr. Ko, Sung Hyuk,

I read with interest, your reason for resigning from KAL and would like to make a comment: It appears from your first letter to PPRUNE that Capt. Lee gave you a bad time primarily because you did not phone him in his room and ask him to go out to eat and drink with you. If that was the ONLY reason for his actions, despicable as they were, you as a Korean national were no doubt aware that the KAL hierarchy demanded that you show respect for your captain by complying with the established system, right or wrong. My questions to you are, why did you not call him, even to make an excuse such as you were not feeling well and what did you tell him when he told you that you should have called him? Did you apologize for causing him to lose face or were you so tired of the ‘system’ that you lost respect for him and antagonized him?

For readers of my comments please understand that I am not condoning Capt. Lee’s actions. He displayed very poor CRM, abused his Line Check Pilot (LCP) authority and deceitfully influenced another LCP to look unfavorably on Mr. Ko during a subsequent line check. In my opinion Capt. Lee should be fired as an LCP, period.


Very good point. As you say, if there is an established cultural system in place then you have little choice if you want to keep your job. Even if it means brown nosing.
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