Emergency Exits..
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Emergency Exits..
Hi all,
This is a posting about what I consider a flight safety issue. I welcome any comment you may have.
Story:
Yeterday Evening I flew from LHR to GLA with BMI. Upon checking in I was asked the usual window/Isle seat question. I specifically asked for an exit if available (as I like to do) only to be told that this wasn't possible! Oh well. Upon boarding I found that the four overwing exits were all to be found in the business cabin of the aircraft. Once the aircraft doors were closed I had a look around for my nearest exit, counted seat backs to it, and noted the number of passengers on board. The economy section was full but the business section was approx 40% full. To my surprise (this is the flight safety bit!) only three of the four exits had people sitting by them. Row 11 was completely empty with no one sitting by the exit should it be required!!
Surely one of the priorities in filling the cabin must be to ensure that the exits are manned. If there had been a smoke/fumes situation on this flight we could have had a situation where only 75% of overwing exits were being used!!
What do you think?
Regards
CM
This is a posting about what I consider a flight safety issue. I welcome any comment you may have.
Story:
Yeterday Evening I flew from LHR to GLA with BMI. Upon checking in I was asked the usual window/Isle seat question. I specifically asked for an exit if available (as I like to do) only to be told that this wasn't possible! Oh well. Upon boarding I found that the four overwing exits were all to be found in the business cabin of the aircraft. Once the aircraft doors were closed I had a look around for my nearest exit, counted seat backs to it, and noted the number of passengers on board. The economy section was full but the business section was approx 40% full. To my surprise (this is the flight safety bit!) only three of the four exits had people sitting by them. Row 11 was completely empty with no one sitting by the exit should it be required!!
Surely one of the priorities in filling the cabin must be to ensure that the exits are manned. If there had been a smoke/fumes situation on this flight we could have had a situation where only 75% of overwing exits were being used!!
What do you think?
Regards
CM
Join Date: Jan 2001
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That is the exit to make a note of, with your plan to proceed and use that one, as at least there is less chance of someone who has not paid full attention to the safty briefing blocking the exit.(probally reading the paper and not even showing the cabin crew a professional courtetsity during the saftey brief). In times of known emergencies the crews will position an able bodied person whom with their experience they will have selected and rebriefed.
Just stay alert and have a plan !!!
Just stay alert and have a plan !!!
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Metman,
You are quite right, The overwing exits are classed as "self help" exits, and the CAA requirement is that at least one ABP is sitting in the row for T/O and Landing. If however the exit is manned by crew then you only need 1 pax per set of doors. The crew should have been moving at least one pax to the overwing so that all 4 "self Help" exits were manned. Had i have been a pax on the flight, I would not have hesitated to just go and sit there once the crew started to secure the cabin. Any BMI safety trainers wish to comment?
You are quite right, The overwing exits are classed as "self help" exits, and the CAA requirement is that at least one ABP is sitting in the row for T/O and Landing. If however the exit is manned by crew then you only need 1 pax per set of doors. The crew should have been moving at least one pax to the overwing so that all 4 "self Help" exits were manned. Had i have been a pax on the flight, I would not have hesitated to just go and sit there once the crew started to secure the cabin. Any BMI safety trainers wish to comment?
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I flew on VEx LHR-BRU last year when the route was "free seating" (thank God they now allocate seats to avoid the multi cultural scrum!)some wise pax made for the exit rows but were removed by the Cabin Crew because "we prefer to keep these empty when the flight is not full to enhance safety".
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From JAR-OPS ...Appendix 1 to JAR–OPS 1.1005 Initial training.
(f) Passenger handling. An operator shall ensure that training for passenger handling includes the following:......
(4) The importance of correct seat allocation with reference to aeroplane mass and balance. Particular emphasis shall also be given on the seating of disabled passengers, and the necessity of seating able-bodied passengers adjacent to unsupervised exits;
(f) Passenger handling. An operator shall ensure that training for passenger handling includes the following:......
(4) The importance of correct seat allocation with reference to aeroplane mass and balance. Particular emphasis shall also be given on the seating of disabled passengers, and the necessity of seating able-bodied passengers adjacent to unsupervised exits;
A couple of months ago on BCN-ZRH flt,I asked the nice lady at check in for a window seat. She gave me the window seat on the back row of an MD80. ie view obliterated by the engine. However on board the Iberia MD80, one of the window exit rows was completely empty. Cabin crew, asked if I would mind moving forward to the exit & drew my attention to the required safety brief.
Well done Iberia
I've quiet often been on flights ( various airlines)were the exit rows have been empty, however, it's not usually long before there's a scrum trying to bag the seats. The danger is, someone completely unsuitable sits there, then it depends on how bothered the cabin crew are, this is a bit of a lottery. It SHOULD be a much higher priority at check-in to sort these things out in advance.
Well done Iberia
I've quiet often been on flights ( various airlines)were the exit rows have been empty, however, it's not usually long before there's a scrum trying to bag the seats. The danger is, someone completely unsuitable sits there, then it depends on how bothered the cabin crew are, this is a bit of a lottery. It SHOULD be a much higher priority at check-in to sort these things out in advance.
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I understood several major carriers used to have a policy of allocating all seats next to exits to young, fit, single, males if possible on every flight.
The reason given was that in the event of an evac, they tend to put themselves first, and will get out at any cost.
Older people, those with dependants, or females it was thought may either not have the physical strength to force open a perhaps slightly bent door, or would more likely try and put the rest of their party/family first, hence cause a blockage.
This policy was discontinued after the PC lobby found out.
In these more enlightened (?) times, I know this is a controversial issue, and know my wife is more than capable of moving imoveable objects! But as a general flight safety policy, at NO COST, could it be reinstated? I firmly believe 99% of pax would never notice how the seats were being allocated on check in.
PC 1 : Flight Safety 0
The reason given was that in the event of an evac, they tend to put themselves first, and will get out at any cost.
Older people, those with dependants, or females it was thought may either not have the physical strength to force open a perhaps slightly bent door, or would more likely try and put the rest of their party/family first, hence cause a blockage.
This policy was discontinued after the PC lobby found out.
In these more enlightened (?) times, I know this is a controversial issue, and know my wife is more than capable of moving imoveable objects! But as a general flight safety policy, at NO COST, could it be reinstated? I firmly believe 99% of pax would never notice how the seats were being allocated on check in.
PC 1 : Flight Safety 0
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Cabin crew remember the 6 types of person who can not sit by an overwing exit by
C O D P I E
C= Children
O= Obese
D= Deportees
P= Prisoners
I= Infirm
E= Elderly
If you were flying on a Fokker jet there is a cabin crew member sat at the right overwing exit inboard crew seat for take off and landing.
(pls note I m not BM)
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
C O D P I E
C= Children
O= Obese
D= Deportees
P= Prisoners
I= Infirm
E= Elderly
If you were flying on a Fokker jet there is a cabin crew member sat at the right overwing exit inboard crew seat for take off and landing.
(pls note I m not BM)
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
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It is an important safety issue, but there does not seem to be any consistent industry-wide standard of application and enforcement. Some airlines ensure suitable occupants, others leave the exit rows empty whenever possible and others simply don't give a t0ss.
I was recently on a flight where the exit row was occupied by a person so large as to require a seatbelt extension. The load was about 40%. When I discreetly (out of earshot) questioned the CC about the policy on that airline, I received a dirty look and was essentially told to fork off.
Days later on the same airline I was in the exit row and got a detailed and clear briefing from the lead FA. Go figure.
(No names, but think maple leaf.)
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: PaperTiger ]
I was recently on a flight where the exit row was occupied by a person so large as to require a seatbelt extension. The load was about 40%. When I discreetly (out of earshot) questioned the CC about the policy on that airline, I received a dirty look and was essentially told to fork off.
Days later on the same airline I was in the exit row and got a detailed and clear briefing from the lead FA. Go figure.
(No names, but think maple leaf.)
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: PaperTiger ]
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In Canada, there is a requirement that ...air operators establish procedures to ensure that seats located at emergency exits are not occupied by passengers whose presence in those seats could adversely affect the safety of passengers or crew members during an emergency evacuation.
Passengers seated at exits:
* must be physically capable of using the exit;
* must be capable of understanding the printed and spoken emergency instructions;
* must be able to visually determine if the exit is safe to open;
* must have sufficient mobility, strength and dexterity to reach, operate and stow (or otherwise dispose of) the emergency exit;
* must be able to receive aural information from the crew and to orally communicate that information to other passengers;
* must be of a minimum age (as established by the air operator) to ensure that he/she has the physical, cognitive and sensory capacity to operate an emergency exit;
* must not be responsible for another person as this can hinder the opening of the emergency exit; and
* must not have a condition which might cause them harm by opening the exit.
Passenger Seating Requirements
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: CD ]
Passengers seated at exits:
* must be physically capable of using the exit;
* must be capable of understanding the printed and spoken emergency instructions;
* must be able to visually determine if the exit is safe to open;
* must have sufficient mobility, strength and dexterity to reach, operate and stow (or otherwise dispose of) the emergency exit;
* must be able to receive aural information from the crew and to orally communicate that information to other passengers;
* must be of a minimum age (as established by the air operator) to ensure that he/she has the physical, cognitive and sensory capacity to operate an emergency exit;
* must not be responsible for another person as this can hinder the opening of the emergency exit; and
* must not have a condition which might cause them harm by opening the exit.
Passenger Seating Requirements
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: CD ]
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Codpie,
Under JAR there is an industry standard, that is only Able Bodied Pax will occupy the seats, and those seats near an unmanned exit will be occupied for T/O and landing by such people, and exits manned by crew will have at least 1 ABP seated. Regarding Ext Seatbelts, again under JAR these are not to be used in ANY seat classed as an exit/ABP seat. It is obvious that the CC on your flight did not give a t**S, and wanted an easy life and no agro from the pax who would have needed moving, and this really infuriates me. As crew we are there for safety, and should always be looking to improve on the safety of the pax in the cabin, and most definatly following the most basic of rules regarding ABP'setc. If you come across this again then just drop an email to the CAA if your aircraft is reg in UK as they do take such violations very seriously.
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: ammdolly ]
Under JAR there is an industry standard, that is only Able Bodied Pax will occupy the seats, and those seats near an unmanned exit will be occupied for T/O and landing by such people, and exits manned by crew will have at least 1 ABP seated. Regarding Ext Seatbelts, again under JAR these are not to be used in ANY seat classed as an exit/ABP seat. It is obvious that the CC on your flight did not give a t**S, and wanted an easy life and no agro from the pax who would have needed moving, and this really infuriates me. As crew we are there for safety, and should always be looking to improve on the safety of the pax in the cabin, and most definatly following the most basic of rules regarding ABP'setc. If you come across this again then just drop an email to the CAA if your aircraft is reg in UK as they do take such violations very seriously.
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: ammdolly ]
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Some of those exit doors weigh in excess of 25Kg and as they have to be pulled inwards first in a twisting movement are really not that easy to open. I kow the first time I did SEP I was surprised however now know what to expect..oh and politely warn the person in the middle seat that I'll probably elbow them in the face quite hard...but don't worry it's nothing personal...and you can hit me back once we're both safe.
But as said above, those persons not fit for these seats should be kept out of them as they will struggle with the hatch and increase the danger for the other passengers. I do know of crew who have been faced with the situation of having obese persons in the overwing seats and having to move them is not easy. That's when you really see how good some of the CC really are when faced with very difficult personal problems, and also to the Capatins in both cases who were both summoned and both fully supported the decision made by the CC in charge.
But as said above, those persons not fit for these seats should be kept out of them as they will struggle with the hatch and increase the danger for the other passengers. I do know of crew who have been faced with the situation of having obese persons in the overwing seats and having to move them is not easy. That's when you really see how good some of the CC really are when faced with very difficult personal problems, and also to the Capatins in both cases who were both summoned and both fully supported the decision made by the CC in charge.
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A few years ago I flew Laker Airways (re-born one) between LGW-MIA rtn. On check in asked for seats by exit rows which were given.
We were also handed a small card telling us of "our responsiblity" sitting at such seats. ie COD PIE
and if we were not happy to sit by an overwing exit then tell the crew.
Throught it was an excellent idea.
As cabin crew we are moving paxs a fair bit because of check in errors.
I know Ground staff get hell and some are quite young, it`s often the case easier to just sit the paxs there and not get grief type attitude, or possibly the paxs with the frequent flyer card. Airlines tell us how important these paxs are. They are, but the Flashed Gold or Silver card could worry the young check in agent. Some paxs use them as a power tool, and for some reason 90% are the silver card members.
I do know that the check in system will not let the flight close if an infant is placed on the side of the aircraft without the extra drop down mask. Wonder if same could be done for these situations?
I will say have learnt something here-didnt know that for T/O and landing overwings needed to be covered by ABP`s.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
We were also handed a small card telling us of "our responsiblity" sitting at such seats. ie COD PIE
and if we were not happy to sit by an overwing exit then tell the crew.
Throught it was an excellent idea.
As cabin crew we are moving paxs a fair bit because of check in errors.
I know Ground staff get hell and some are quite young, it`s often the case easier to just sit the paxs there and not get grief type attitude, or possibly the paxs with the frequent flyer card. Airlines tell us how important these paxs are. They are, but the Flashed Gold or Silver card could worry the young check in agent. Some paxs use them as a power tool, and for some reason 90% are the silver card members.
I do know that the check in system will not let the flight close if an infant is placed on the side of the aircraft without the extra drop down mask. Wonder if same could be done for these situations?
I will say have learnt something here-didnt know that for T/O and landing overwings needed to be covered by ABP`s.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
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Hi again,
Thanks for your replies. It's good to see that I'm not alone in my thoughts on this issue.
I think that the next time I find myself in the same position I'll ask on board if I can be seated next to the exit.
I find it incredible that because of the daft class divisions that BMI still persist with on internal flights an able bodied passenger willing to man an exit is not allowed to do so because they have not spent enough on their ticket!
Obviously I can appreciate that airlines get a lot of money from their business and first class fares. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem however when passenger safety is at risk.
CM
Thanks for your replies. It's good to see that I'm not alone in my thoughts on this issue.
I think that the next time I find myself in the same position I'll ask on board if I can be seated next to the exit.
I find it incredible that because of the daft class divisions that BMI still persist with on internal flights an able bodied passenger willing to man an exit is not allowed to do so because they have not spent enough on their ticket!
Obviously I can appreciate that airlines get a lot of money from their business and first class fares. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem however when passenger safety is at risk.
CM
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Another thing in addition to CODPIE that's oft occured to me as a SLF is the sitting of NESBoes at the exits of an english only flight (such as QF). They
1. Generally will miss some aspects of a printed instruction on one reading
2. Tend not to understand commands at times of stress (and when is an evac not?)
3. Tend to say "yes" when asked anything whether understood or not.
This is with all due respect: my day job is with predominantly mandarin speaking people although the language used is english: great guys and their english is a 100x better than my mandarin. Take it the other way: would I think it appropriate putting me overwing on an internal China flight?
Pax at emergency exits must be fluent in the first language likely to be used in an emergency in that flight
1. Generally will miss some aspects of a printed instruction on one reading
2. Tend not to understand commands at times of stress (and when is an evac not?)
3. Tend to say "yes" when asked anything whether understood or not.
This is with all due respect: my day job is with predominantly mandarin speaking people although the language used is english: great guys and their english is a 100x better than my mandarin. Take it the other way: would I think it appropriate putting me overwing on an internal China flight?
Pax at emergency exits must be fluent in the first language likely to be used in an emergency in that flight
