Management And Pilots Should Read This!
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Guv, I’m not certain that your assessment of raas767 is accurate, judging from his comments he seems to have a lot of inside knowledge, enough so that he is likely a management pilot struggling with these issues on a day-to-day basis. I agree with your statements regarding the requirement for flexibility, that is an essential survival tool for airlines not coddled by generous state coffers, witness the rapid demise of Sabena when union intransigence stopped the airline from operating reliably and government access to funding was denied. However, rass767 is correct in stating that the seniority system is a necessity, without it pilot morale drops to lows approaching zero, resulting in high turnover, highly increased training costs and concomitant safety compromises for the airline concerned. I can think of one or two operations that fall into this unenviable category. You object to his statement “selected for a very specific skill which make us all virtually identical”. At first blush it would appear he is calling us all easily programmable robots, which would indeed be insulting, although I’m sure there are those who would no doubt argue the point. I think he meant to say “people with the capacity to develop highly specialized skills that allow them to perform a particular range of complex and demanding tasks”. In that, he is also correct, perhaps you misread him. Perhaps I am wrong, a clarification from raas767 would be welcome.
In all of this, someone very wisely pointed to the fact that open and honest lines of communication between unions and management are absolutely essential if everyone is to have a reasonable grasp of the big picture, without which, evidently, we would all find ourselves hip deep in sheep dip, no offense intended to our Kiwi brothers and sisters. These problems existed well before the world’s most famous caveman reared his insanely hideous and callow head, they are merely brought into much starker relief by the post-trauma realignment now taking place.
It is in all our interests to arrive at a solution. Perhaps management should ride the line for a while, get some serious sleep- and digestive-pattern disturbances to think about, and all pilots do a nine-to-five duty stint slogging away at the four small corners of an office desk (Aaaar, shiver me timbers!), maybe only then could we arrive at some sort of mutually profitable accommodation. I continue to have the greatest of hope.
In all of this, someone very wisely pointed to the fact that open and honest lines of communication between unions and management are absolutely essential if everyone is to have a reasonable grasp of the big picture, without which, evidently, we would all find ourselves hip deep in sheep dip, no offense intended to our Kiwi brothers and sisters. These problems existed well before the world’s most famous caveman reared his insanely hideous and callow head, they are merely brought into much starker relief by the post-trauma realignment now taking place.
It is in all our interests to arrive at a solution. Perhaps management should ride the line for a while, get some serious sleep- and digestive-pattern disturbances to think about, and all pilots do a nine-to-five duty stint slogging away at the four small corners of an office desk (Aaaar, shiver me timbers!), maybe only then could we arrive at some sort of mutually profitable accommodation. I continue to have the greatest of hope.
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Guv
One of the main constraints an airline has, is planning constraints. You have to be able to project that you will have trained and qualified airmen in sufficient numbers at all times to to meet the needs of your schedule.
If anyone can jump up and leave at short notice, your competitors would wait until you look vulnerable and then up the ante on Boebus 740 drivers, and you have aircraft sitting on the ground.
This principle was illustrated to me some years ago in the local soft drink bottling industry.
Several months before Christmas(tropical location so high season for soft drinks) the local Pepsi distributor started buying up cases and cases of empty Coke bottles.
Coke did not notice until shortly before Christmas that they had no bottles to fill.Panic buying of empties, price went up greatly.
Think of trying to keep a constantly changing workforce up to date on all the route checks, HPF,SEP, recurrent checks, etc,etc and the other unending number of compliance items. Scheduling sim etc would be a nightmare.The CAA would have fits over standardisation.
What about brand loyalty. A man with a PA mike and 300 pairs of captive ears for maybe 8 hours can do you a lot of good or harm depending on his mood. Let us hope he is not unhappy, or he can do a lot of damage before he moves on.
Introducing a brand new type, what are you going to do? You can't commit to take delivery of the latest SonicBus in two years time not knowing where you will get crew.
Train the crew, and the next entrant to the SonicBus market will up the ante and save himself the training cost.
I see a lot of practical problems in eliminating seniority. Don't forget that Unions and seniority came about mainly because of bad management and unfair treatment of employees. How can you guarantee to stop that?
One of the main constraints an airline has, is planning constraints. You have to be able to project that you will have trained and qualified airmen in sufficient numbers at all times to to meet the needs of your schedule.
If anyone can jump up and leave at short notice, your competitors would wait until you look vulnerable and then up the ante on Boebus 740 drivers, and you have aircraft sitting on the ground.
This principle was illustrated to me some years ago in the local soft drink bottling industry.
Several months before Christmas(tropical location so high season for soft drinks) the local Pepsi distributor started buying up cases and cases of empty Coke bottles.
Coke did not notice until shortly before Christmas that they had no bottles to fill.Panic buying of empties, price went up greatly.
Think of trying to keep a constantly changing workforce up to date on all the route checks, HPF,SEP, recurrent checks, etc,etc and the other unending number of compliance items. Scheduling sim etc would be a nightmare.The CAA would have fits over standardisation.
What about brand loyalty. A man with a PA mike and 300 pairs of captive ears for maybe 8 hours can do you a lot of good or harm depending on his mood. Let us hope he is not unhappy, or he can do a lot of damage before he moves on.
Introducing a brand new type, what are you going to do? You can't commit to take delivery of the latest SonicBus in two years time not knowing where you will get crew.
Train the crew, and the next entrant to the SonicBus market will up the ante and save himself the training cost.
I see a lot of practical problems in eliminating seniority. Don't forget that Unions and seniority came about mainly because of bad management and unfair treatment of employees. How can you guarantee to stop that?
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Guv.
Perhaps a clarification is in order. My statement was not meant to be arrogent. I simply meant that when we were selected at my airline we all had to pass certain pre-employment screaning. The same screaning that everyone has to pass that fly for major carriers. These tests are designed to measure aptitude and a miriad of other things that the specific airline deams important for their prospective pilots. This does not mean that everyone makes it to command. Some people do not pass the training program and are let go. As you rightly pointed out I fly for an airline that has an up or out policy, which means if you don't qualify for command you are out. Obviously everyone has to qualify for whatever seat position he or she seaks but the promotion OPPORTUNITY is awarded based on seniority. Thank God.
You also seam to hold Kelleher's outfit in high regard, and rightly so. He runs a very good airline, perhaps the very best. Please know , however, that his employees are highly unionized and that airline also employes the seniority system. SWA is succesful for a variety of reasons but foremost because of superior management. That, my friend is what sets an airline apart. Not unions, not seniority lists, not scope clauses. LEADERSHIP.
Bugg Smasher.
No, I'm not a management pilot but I have been in this business a long time and I have seen the likes of GUV come and go. They never prevail.
Happy trails.
Perhaps a clarification is in order. My statement was not meant to be arrogent. I simply meant that when we were selected at my airline we all had to pass certain pre-employment screaning. The same screaning that everyone has to pass that fly for major carriers. These tests are designed to measure aptitude and a miriad of other things that the specific airline deams important for their prospective pilots. This does not mean that everyone makes it to command. Some people do not pass the training program and are let go. As you rightly pointed out I fly for an airline that has an up or out policy, which means if you don't qualify for command you are out. Obviously everyone has to qualify for whatever seat position he or she seaks but the promotion OPPORTUNITY is awarded based on seniority. Thank God.
You also seam to hold Kelleher's outfit in high regard, and rightly so. He runs a very good airline, perhaps the very best. Please know , however, that his employees are highly unionized and that airline also employes the seniority system. SWA is succesful for a variety of reasons but foremost because of superior management. That, my friend is what sets an airline apart. Not unions, not seniority lists, not scope clauses. LEADERSHIP.
Bugg Smasher.
No, I'm not a management pilot but I have been in this business a long time and I have seen the likes of GUV come and go. They never prevail.
Happy trails.
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tilii, you're being disengeneous again! 
My:
was merely in response to your:
I also note that you have amended your post to state:
This is precisely my point. Every other industry has - by definition - career path progression and individual responsibilities at least equal to if not greater than those of the airline industry. They manage perfectly well without a seniority system. So why does the airline industry need it?
bugg smasher/SeaSunSandFly/raas767 - you've all missed my point, probably because I didn't explain it as well as I should have as I was concentrating on other areas.
In a system where seniority disappears - as is the case in every other industry apart from ours - then companies have to look after their people better to retain them. Whether that's better pay, better working conditions or a better lifestyle - or a combination of all three - doesn't matter: the bottom line is that if life if pretty awful at company A and looks great at B then people will migrate from A to B.
This goes back to what I was saying about type ratings and effectively equal conditions for all types of aircraft (conditions being a combination of the three factors above). If you know that you need x number of people rated on y type then you'll do as easyJet did recently - and offer then 'golden hellos' (actually golden handcuffs as if you leave within a certain period the signing bonus has to be repaid - including the portion you handed over to the tax man!)
Airline managers would need to keep their staff happy and well motivated to ensure that SeaSunSandFly's scenario of an unhappy pilot with a PA and captive passengers doesn't happen.
There would still be internal promotion - obviously - and retraining on other types. But it's a privilege and not a right - and it's one that's reserved for those that merit it.
In short, this would be a win-win situation for all.
My:
note please that this is simply my prophecy of the way that things will go - and one which I am interested to see you fully concur with."
FWIW, I think that in the short term
your prophesies may come true. But I do think that in the fullness of time even you will sing a different tune. Let us wait and see.
your prophesies may come true. But I do think that in the fullness of time even you will sing a different tune. Let us wait and see.
And let me reiterate - no other industry but the 'aviation industry' operates airliners. Therefore, the fact that no other industry uses a seniority system such as that used by those airlines is utterly unsurprising and largely bloody irrelevant
bugg smasher/SeaSunSandFly/raas767 - you've all missed my point, probably because I didn't explain it as well as I should have as I was concentrating on other areas.
In a system where seniority disappears - as is the case in every other industry apart from ours - then companies have to look after their people better to retain them. Whether that's better pay, better working conditions or a better lifestyle - or a combination of all three - doesn't matter: the bottom line is that if life if pretty awful at company A and looks great at B then people will migrate from A to B.
This goes back to what I was saying about type ratings and effectively equal conditions for all types of aircraft (conditions being a combination of the three factors above). If you know that you need x number of people rated on y type then you'll do as easyJet did recently - and offer then 'golden hellos' (actually golden handcuffs as if you leave within a certain period the signing bonus has to be repaid - including the portion you handed over to the tax man!)
Airline managers would need to keep their staff happy and well motivated to ensure that SeaSunSandFly's scenario of an unhappy pilot with a PA and captive passengers doesn't happen.
There would still be internal promotion - obviously - and retraining on other types. But it's a privilege and not a right - and it's one that's reserved for those that merit it.
In short, this would be a win-win situation for all.
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for your info eieio, the 70+ per month that pilots fly is precisely that. That doesn't include the rest of the duties that go with it. Report times, positioning, classroom refresher training etc.
The seniority system has many bad points. I've seen people get their commands who should NOT be in the left seat of an airliner. However I can't see any other realistic way for the pilots to be employed. It is a very different industry from any other and comparisons cannot be reasonably made.
The seniority system has many bad points. I've seen people get their commands who should NOT be in the left seat of an airliner. However I can't see any other realistic way for the pilots to be employed. It is a very different industry from any other and comparisons cannot be reasonably made.
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The Guvnor
Moi, being “disengeneous”, Guv, or you being the dense one that you have said you know I am not?
First let me respond to your remark about internal promotion and type retraining. Neither of these are now, or have ever been "a privilege and not a right". They are no more than commercial realities or necessities. When an airline needs skippers, it has two choices: promote from within or recruit from without. The latter alternative has in the past been shown to be fraught with difficulty, if not danger. Likewise with type retraining.
Now, I do assure you that I have not missed your point. Nor, I think, have bugg smasher/SeaSunSandFly/raas767 missed your point. On the contrary, I think we all have made an effort to defend a system that has proven its value, to employer and employee alike, over many years in what is unarguably a unique industry.
I think I can speak for many of us when I say that we recognise that many an entrepreneurial Johnny-Come-Lately or Wannabe may well hold that there is a better way than the pilot seniority system. Certainly, many have so held in the past and alternatives have been tested. The simple fact remains that, despite experiences in many other industries that have shown it to be beneficial to reject or remove a seniority system (the police forces, by way of example), the aviation industry stands alone as one where such a system works, and works well enough to be better than any of the alternatives so far put forward.
This is not to say that we pilots are unwilling to listen to new ideas. But nothing you have so far posted on this issue is new. It may well be that you have woken one morning to find you have a hard-on caused by a seniority system alternative ‘realisation’, but you must share with us the novelty of this realisation of yours so that we may better understand your enthusiasm.
Once we understand it, we may like it. Of course, it will then be necessary for you to establish your new airline so that we are able to put it forward for implementation. The CAA may not like it, of course, which could be problematic. Pilots negatively affected by it may persuade their unions to not like it. The Air Transport Users Committee may not like it either, and may put it to government that it is detrimental to air safety.
At the end of the day, Guv, you have a long way to go before your wet dream becomes a reality. But I do admire your determination and your rhinoceros-like hide. Keep up the good work.
Late Edit @ 1630 hours: Aaaah. That seems to have done the trick. Seven hours and no response from him. He's off posting plagiarised 'news' elsewhere. Jolly good. Wonder if it was his spelling embarrassment or did he just finally see the light? 
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
Moi, being “disengeneous”, Guv, or you being the dense one that you have said you know I am not?
First let me respond to your remark about internal promotion and type retraining. Neither of these are now, or have ever been "a privilege and not a right". They are no more than commercial realities or necessities. When an airline needs skippers, it has two choices: promote from within or recruit from without. The latter alternative has in the past been shown to be fraught with difficulty, if not danger. Likewise with type retraining.
Now, I do assure you that I have not missed your point. Nor, I think, have bugg smasher/SeaSunSandFly/raas767 missed your point. On the contrary, I think we all have made an effort to defend a system that has proven its value, to employer and employee alike, over many years in what is unarguably a unique industry.
I think I can speak for many of us when I say that we recognise that many an entrepreneurial Johnny-Come-Lately or Wannabe may well hold that there is a better way than the pilot seniority system. Certainly, many have so held in the past and alternatives have been tested. The simple fact remains that, despite experiences in many other industries that have shown it to be beneficial to reject or remove a seniority system (the police forces, by way of example), the aviation industry stands alone as one where such a system works, and works well enough to be better than any of the alternatives so far put forward.
This is not to say that we pilots are unwilling to listen to new ideas. But nothing you have so far posted on this issue is new. It may well be that you have woken one morning to find you have a hard-on caused by a seniority system alternative ‘realisation’, but you must share with us the novelty of this realisation of yours so that we may better understand your enthusiasm.
Once we understand it, we may like it. Of course, it will then be necessary for you to establish your new airline so that we are able to put it forward for implementation. The CAA may not like it, of course, which could be problematic. Pilots negatively affected by it may persuade their unions to not like it. The Air Transport Users Committee may not like it either, and may put it to government that it is detrimental to air safety.
At the end of the day, Guv, you have a long way to go before your wet dream becomes a reality. But I do admire your determination and your rhinoceros-like hide. Keep up the good work.
Late Edit @ 1630 hours: Aaaah. That seems to have done the trick. Seven hours and no response from him. He's off posting plagiarised 'news' elsewhere. Jolly good. Wonder if it was his spelling embarrassment or did he just finally see the light?
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]
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There is one airline in Belgium which does not use a seniority system. You get on in the company by doing what you are paid to do professionally and with no fuss. If you are good at your job you will be rewarded with promotion. If you are bad at your job you will get nowhere. Should a new aircraft type appear, only the good, hard working and high socially intelligent people (which 70% of pilots are not) will be invited to join the fleet. Anybody else is left behind and will lose their jobs as the older aircraft are phased out. The management are interested in getting the job done quickly and efficiently. Should any of the management take a dislike to an individual for any particular reason, that member of management will remove himself from deciding about the individual concerned. This leads to the avoidance of personality clashes and ensures that the person concerned still has a fair chance of suceeding with the opinions of the other members of management. Both pilots and management try very hard to make it all work. Management do not turn into the usual Gods on high and remain very approachable and amenable. Pilots in return do not act like spoilt Hollywood actors or supermodels and actually enjoy doing a good job because they feel valued. Management explain to all new recruits that your progress is totally your responsibilty. Act like an idiot and you go nowhere. Act responsibly and you will rise up the ladder. The net upshot of all this is everybody gets on well (it is a big airline) and people realise (both management and pilots)that the companies survival and therefore their survival is directly on their shoulders. The attiude of the pilots and mangement is the most refreshing I have ever seen. Other airlines can certainly learn from this company and would do well to get rid of their Dickensian attitudes.
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Its DHL/EAT. This is one reason why DHL is a genuine world class company, not one that thinks it is. This company embraces some seriously clever thinking plus it moves with the times. I have nothing to do with the company unfortunately but I have a close friend within who speaks with authority. This is the kind of company I want to work for, not the Marks and Spencer syndrome types (we are great, everybody will always come to us, we can just sit here and be magnificent on our gold plated chairs.......oops).
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Thanks to everybody apporting ideas and different solutions.
I respect the opinions of all the people (also the Guv's one!)....
I was asking myself:
Why managers are so contrary to the pilot's seniority?
May be, because they want to preserve their direct entry Top Mangmt?
They should start at the bottom and advance as we do.
Cheers.
Fly safe & enjoy life.
I respect the opinions of all the people (also the Guv's one!)....
I was asking myself:
Why managers are so contrary to the pilot's seniority?
May be, because they want to preserve their direct entry Top Mangmt?
They should start at the bottom and advance as we do.
Cheers.
Fly safe & enjoy life.
Paxing All Over The World
raas767
Indeed ... YET. My view is that your industry will change in the way that others have. I cannot say when but a guess is within ten years.
tilii
Thank you for accepting that I am who I say I am! When I chose my name tag for this board, it was specifically done to show that I am SLF. But I am one that has worked in a range of industries in a range of countries. I have experieenced enormous change in my own working practise that I could not have imagined when I started. In the 1980s it changed once, in the 1990s it changed a second time.
With reference to 'traditional/hire and fire'. The former is one that encourages progress, trains staff with a long term view (5 years +) and presumes that staff will stay. The latter avoids training as it costs too much and the expectation is that staff will leave of their own volition. (5 years -). Also the kind of company that sheds staff as it 'regroups or downsizes' and two years later takes on staff with the same experience and skills as the ones they made redundant!
White Knight
That does not mean that the comparisons will be made by 'reasonable' people! I have seen 'managers' move into an industry that they knew very little about and some make it work better and some trash the place. Until it happens, one never knows. Look at GEC in the UK, well run for over 30 years and trashed in three.
To all airline staff, I can only say that I hope and trust that your industry continues to grow in the way that you want it to. I hope that the best method of promotion is used. I hope that the hours worked by UK hospital doctors comes down to your level and not the reverse. But, over 23 years of experience in this country and others, I have seen them all change without exception. I cannot see a way in which yours is going to be singled out for different treatment.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: PAXboy ]
There has never been a contract opener my management at my airline through out it's history where they wanted to do away with seniority.
tilii
While I accept your argument that the industries to which you refer have changed from whatever it is you describe as ?traditional? to what you say is ?hire and fire? (frankly the distinction escapes me
...
We will forgive you for this, since your profile makes it clear that you have no relevant aviation experience other than as a passenger.
...
We will forgive you for this, since your profile makes it clear that you have no relevant aviation experience other than as a passenger.
With reference to 'traditional/hire and fire'. The former is one that encourages progress, trains staff with a long term view (5 years +) and presumes that staff will stay. The latter avoids training as it costs too much and the expectation is that staff will leave of their own volition. (5 years -). Also the kind of company that sheds staff as it 'regroups or downsizes' and two years later takes on staff with the same experience and skills as the ones they made redundant!
White Knight
However I can't see any other realistic way for the pilots to be employed. It is a very different industry from any other and comparisons cannot be reasonably made.
To all airline staff, I can only say that I hope and trust that your industry continues to grow in the way that you want it to. I hope that the best method of promotion is used. I hope that the hours worked by UK hospital doctors comes down to your level and not the reverse. But, over 23 years of experience in this country and others, I have seen them all change without exception. I cannot see a way in which yours is going to be singled out for different treatment.
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: PAXboy ]
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One thing that should be remembered here is that the unions "own" the seniority list. Management has nothing to do with it. So in order for it to go away the unions would have to do it. The only way that is ever going to happen is in the face of something so shattering that I can't even imagine it.
Guv.
Are you talking about a system such as Park Aviation and IASCO where pilots spend time with airlines for as long as their contracts are valid and then move on and gain employment based on their type ratings and experience? Sort of a global fraternity of nomads going wherever their is room for advancement. If that's the scenario you have in mind then I think I will retire.
As far as DHL in Europe. I know nothing about it but I can guarantee you that their is also politics involved in promotion. Throwing parties, playing golf with the boss, and that kind of thing. Ask any airline pilot whether they like the chief pilot and the answer is usually no. They are not selected by virtue of seniority but through political intrigue and good old fashion back stabbing and their loyalties are always to themselfs and their career advancement through the management ranks at their airline.
No thanks!
Guv.
Are you talking about a system such as Park Aviation and IASCO where pilots spend time with airlines for as long as their contracts are valid and then move on and gain employment based on their type ratings and experience? Sort of a global fraternity of nomads going wherever their is room for advancement. If that's the scenario you have in mind then I think I will retire.
As far as DHL in Europe. I know nothing about it but I can guarantee you that their is also politics involved in promotion. Throwing parties, playing golf with the boss, and that kind of thing. Ask any airline pilot whether they like the chief pilot and the answer is usually no. They are not selected by virtue of seniority but through political intrigue and good old fashion back stabbing and their loyalties are always to themselfs and their career advancement through the management ranks at their airline.
No thanks!
Paxing All Over The World
raas767. Very interesting about the unions owning the seniority list. In that case, Yes, it will take longer to change. I stick to my opinion that it will change, not least that one human being will always find an advantage in changing the system!
As regards politics, yep that is life. I have seen very dumb, biased, etc. people promoted and when they cause too much damage, they promote them further up the chain to put them out of the customer's way. I see that all the time. After all, how many of the actors in big movies are actually talented actors and how many just look the part?!
As I say, I wish your industry well.
As regards politics, yep that is life. I have seen very dumb, biased, etc. people promoted and when they cause too much damage, they promote them further up the chain to put them out of the customer's way. I see that all the time. After all, how many of the actors in big movies are actually talented actors and how many just look the part?!
As I say, I wish your industry well.
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raas767 - many thanks for confirming what I said earlier: that the people with the vested interest over seniority are the unions. Not the employees and not management.
As long as you have several people participating in the evaluation process, the possibility of bias is not very high - and all the more so if it's handled ethically as described at DHL/EAT.
As long as you have several people participating in the evaluation process, the possibility of bias is not very high - and all the more so if it's handled ethically as described at DHL/EAT.
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guv
Interesting that you attempt to ride Herb Kelleher's coattails by suggesting you're "cut from the same cloth". Please forgive me if I maintain my scepticism. Herb's got more credibility in his little finger than......!
Well, you (and no doubt everyone else) will get the point.
Back to the orignal thread. Look at the airlines with the best pilot/management relationships. The common thread is simply that the better managers/leaders typically grow from the legal profession. Successful lawyer types MUST possess good inter-personal skills. In other words, they are good communicators and understand how human psyche works.
Contrast this with the CPA/beancounter-heavy managements, where everyone and everything is a cost base. They're great at reading a spreadsheet but don't learn how to relate to people (after all, it's difficult to interract with a ledger!).
The first group understands value. The second simply recognises cost. No surprise then, that the vast majority of US airlines are run by financial types (Herb's an attorney).
Now, on to guv's lack of understanding on why a fourteen thousand pilot group can't be simply rated.
Are you going to run a league table or something? What's it based on,DFDR? Who made the most George Clooney sounding P.A.? Who's going to grade it?
Most importantly, who's going to pay for it?
The last question should be the most obvious. The present seniority system costs an airline NOTHING to manage! They're not about to rush to change that.
Let me know when Don Carty calls you for some advice. I wouldn't hold your breath, though.
dd
(and I don't care too much for most attorneys either)
Interesting that you attempt to ride Herb Kelleher's coattails by suggesting you're "cut from the same cloth". Please forgive me if I maintain my scepticism. Herb's got more credibility in his little finger than......!
Well, you (and no doubt everyone else) will get the point.
Back to the orignal thread. Look at the airlines with the best pilot/management relationships. The common thread is simply that the better managers/leaders typically grow from the legal profession. Successful lawyer types MUST possess good inter-personal skills. In other words, they are good communicators and understand how human psyche works.
Contrast this with the CPA/beancounter-heavy managements, where everyone and everything is a cost base. They're great at reading a spreadsheet but don't learn how to relate to people (after all, it's difficult to interract with a ledger!).
The first group understands value. The second simply recognises cost. No surprise then, that the vast majority of US airlines are run by financial types (Herb's an attorney).
Now, on to guv's lack of understanding on why a fourteen thousand pilot group can't be simply rated.
Are you going to run a league table or something? What's it based on,DFDR? Who made the most George Clooney sounding P.A.? Who's going to grade it?
Most importantly, who's going to pay for it?
The last question should be the most obvious. The present seniority system costs an airline NOTHING to manage! They're not about to rush to change that.
Let me know when Don Carty calls you for some advice. I wouldn't hold your breath, though.
dd
(and I don't care too much for most attorneys either)
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Paxboy,
I agree with you in that many industries promote incompetence as a means of politely shifting undesirable employees to areas where they are less likely to do damage, or as a method of elevating favored ones ahead of the peer group. In aviation, however, promotion of incompetence and/or inexperience leads to disastrous consequences. This is most clearly seen in our industry by certain operators of large modern jets whose names need not be here repeated, where nepotism and national face appear to be the order of the day. The result is a safety record so tragically appalling as to defy analysis or understanding; beyond all reasonable expectation, they have succeeded in turning their flight operations into a deadly game of lawn darts.
In every successful airline, there exists a mechanism of checks and balances that seeks to ensure all pilots are operationally, psychologically and medically fit. Some do slip through, you may have seen the “Old Boy’s Network” thread earlier that touched upon many of these issues. This system ensures that each and every pilot is judged by his/her superiors, and if found wanting will be shown the door without hesitation or remorse. This is absolutely necessary, and something which should provide you, the passenger, with a reasonable degree of confidence when boarding a commercial aircraft. It bears more resemblance to the military way of doing things than to any commercial practice. Pilots are, Guv, indeed promoted on merit, the seniority system merely ensures that each one of us is given the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time.
I find your comments, PAXboy, reflect a genuine and fascinating knowledge of various business practices, and I concede that your predictions may very well come to pass on the management side of the airline business. The flight department, however, is a horse of an entirely different color. Guv rightly points out that pilots have no business on the management side of things. By the same token, management types should also remain where they belong, as far away from the cockpit as is mercifully possible.
I agree with you in that many industries promote incompetence as a means of politely shifting undesirable employees to areas where they are less likely to do damage, or as a method of elevating favored ones ahead of the peer group. In aviation, however, promotion of incompetence and/or inexperience leads to disastrous consequences. This is most clearly seen in our industry by certain operators of large modern jets whose names need not be here repeated, where nepotism and national face appear to be the order of the day. The result is a safety record so tragically appalling as to defy analysis or understanding; beyond all reasonable expectation, they have succeeded in turning their flight operations into a deadly game of lawn darts.
In every successful airline, there exists a mechanism of checks and balances that seeks to ensure all pilots are operationally, psychologically and medically fit. Some do slip through, you may have seen the “Old Boy’s Network” thread earlier that touched upon many of these issues. This system ensures that each and every pilot is judged by his/her superiors, and if found wanting will be shown the door without hesitation or remorse. This is absolutely necessary, and something which should provide you, the passenger, with a reasonable degree of confidence when boarding a commercial aircraft. It bears more resemblance to the military way of doing things than to any commercial practice. Pilots are, Guv, indeed promoted on merit, the seniority system merely ensures that each one of us is given the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time.
I find your comments, PAXboy, reflect a genuine and fascinating knowledge of various business practices, and I concede that your predictions may very well come to pass on the management side of the airline business. The flight department, however, is a horse of an entirely different color. Guv rightly points out that pilots have no business on the management side of things. By the same token, management types should also remain where they belong, as far away from the cockpit as is mercifully possible.
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tilii now, you know that's not correct - there are rather a lot of instances I (and everyone else) can think of where the unions didn't represent the majority view or where there was vast amounts of gerrymandering employed to attain a desired result. The unions are in it for their own benefit - look at the oft quoted comparison between Chris Darke's pay increases and those that he represents!
DallasDude - you obviously didn't read QAww's post on the subject, so here it is again:
Sounds a great idea to me. Anyone see any reason why it shouldn't work elsewhere?
DallasDude - you obviously didn't read QAww's post on the subject, so here it is again:
You get on in the company by doing what you are paid to do professionally and with no fuss. If you are good at your job you will be rewarded with promotion. If you are bad at your job you will get nowhere. Should a new aircraft type appear, only the good, hard working and high socially intelligent people (which 70% of pilots are not) will be invited to join the fleet. Anybody else is left behind and will lose their jobs as the older aircraft are phased out. The management are interested in getting the job done quickly and efficiently. Should any of the management take a dislike to an individual for any particular reason, that member of management will remove himself from deciding about the individual concerned. This leads to the avoidance of personality clashes and ensures that the person concerned still has a fair chance of suceeding with the opinions of the other members of management. Both pilots and management try very hard to make it all work. Management do not turn into the usual Gods on high and remain very approachable and amenable. Pilots in return do not act like spoilt Hollywood actors or supermodels and actually enjoy doing a good job because they feel valued. Management explain to all new recruits that your progress is totally your responsibilty. Act like an idiot and you go nowhere. Act responsibly and you will rise up the ladder. The net upshot of all this is everybody gets on well (it is a big airline) and people realise (both management and pilots)that the companies survival and therefore their survival is directly on their shoulders. The attitude of the pilots and mangement is the most refreshing I have ever seen.
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What many people seem all too often to forget is that unions tend to prosper and recruit huge memberships where management is poor, autocratic or overbearing - or all three.
Management therefore have only themselves to blame for the unions. If you don't like them, change your style so your employees don't feel the need for them.
The days of geing convincingly able to blame unions for things like poor attitude, restrictive practices, excessive pay demands etc. went many years ago, before Maggie even departed the scene of sane politicians.
And Guv? Be careful about "gerrymandering" allegations. We all saw what went on around the time of the so-called ballot of FR employees.
Management therefore have only themselves to blame for the unions. If you don't like them, change your style so your employees don't feel the need for them.
The days of geing convincingly able to blame unions for things like poor attitude, restrictive practices, excessive pay demands etc. went many years ago, before Maggie even departed the scene of sane politicians.
And Guv? Be careful about "gerrymandering" allegations. We all saw what went on around the time of the so-called ballot of FR employees.