Random Testing
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Random Testing
Rumours are that we as an industry are going to be subject to random Alcohol and Drugs testing as soon as we check in for a flying duty...
More Big brother legislation..on an industry that had never in its history ever had an accident attributed to either
We have been self regulating and IMHO that for the most part has worked.
Ah I hear you all say ...what about the pilots caught on the flight deck over the limit?...
Well surely the fact that this tiny minority that have been caught is a testimony to the system, as it stands,is working.
Why then is it necessary to inflict the stress of this random testing process on the rest of us?
I for one, am completely against this.
As mentioned above it inflicts unnecessary stress on crews at check in.
This Big Brother monitoring creates mistrust among the crews and the employers,which will further lower morale.
It could end up increasing sickness rates,consider,... a crew member has been to a party the night before and feels as though he/she may be a touch over....Job on the line if he/she is?...
Isn't this a form of harrassment...??
It is bound to create a plausible case for a claimant on some point of law....
Any lawyers out there with comments on this....
More Big brother legislation..on an industry that had never in its history ever had an accident attributed to either
We have been self regulating and IMHO that for the most part has worked.
Ah I hear you all say ...what about the pilots caught on the flight deck over the limit?...
Well surely the fact that this tiny minority that have been caught is a testimony to the system, as it stands,is working.
Why then is it necessary to inflict the stress of this random testing process on the rest of us?
I for one, am completely against this.
As mentioned above it inflicts unnecessary stress on crews at check in.
This Big Brother monitoring creates mistrust among the crews and the employers,which will further lower morale.
It could end up increasing sickness rates,consider,... a crew member has been to a party the night before and feels as though he/she may be a touch over....Job on the line if he/she is?...
Isn't this a form of harrassment...??
It is bound to create a plausible case for a claimant on some point of law....
Any lawyers out there with comments on this....
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Is this a windup?
I propose random testing for those in all government positions,the police and security agencies, the DEA, the MIx, lorry drivers and train operators also then and while we are at it, why not the 
media as well. 
media as well.
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Been there done that,
I have worked in an Airline where there were alcohol tests conducted in the briefing room almost every day. The tests were performed by hirecops that normally worked airport security. Can you imagine? 
I am also against it- I never drink the day before a flight, but the stress of being tested in front of all the other crewmembers was still there. And the underlying inisinuations, and the fact that being a pilot in that company made everybody suspect you of being a drunk was far from plesant.
Let's hope the union guys stop this!
I am also against it- I never drink the day before a flight, but the stress of being tested in front of all the other crewmembers was still there. And the underlying inisinuations, and the fact that being a pilot in that company made everybody suspect you of being a drunk was far from plesant.
Let's hope the union guys stop this!
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As an ATCO I have the possibility of being tested for alcohol or drugs at any time whilst on duty and I don't see it as a problem!
So why should it be any different for pilots?
I don't believe it should be done in front of everybody else in the crewroom, but if companies use discretion and courtesy it can be handled very well.
The alcohol test is the easy one but my company are having real problems with the drugs test. The original test brought up false readings which caused all sorts of problems and the new tests have to be sent to a lab and you get the results within 3 days!!! which kind of defeats the object as the person carries on working (at the moment ) until the results are received
If the airline companies bring this in sensibly and with a little bit of thought it shouldn't really cause too many problems - unless you have something to hide
So why should it be any different for pilots?
I don't believe it should be done in front of everybody else in the crewroom, but if companies use discretion and courtesy it can be handled very well.
The alcohol test is the easy one but my company are having real problems with the drugs test. The original test brought up false readings which caused all sorts of problems and the new tests have to be sent to a lab and you get the results within 3 days!!! which kind of defeats the object as the person carries on working (at the moment ) until the results are received
If the airline companies bring this in sensibly and with a little bit of thought it shouldn't really cause too many problems - unless you have something to hide
As one who has been out of the aviation industry but about to get back into it I have no qualms about being subject to random testing. The last job I had was working as a signaller in the railway industry. All operational staff on the railway could be random screened at any time and it was automatically done in the event of an incident or accident. When you join the organisation you know exactly what the Drugs and Alcohol Policy is and I must also give credit to the Company which, as part of our initial training, took time to teach all staff the effects of alcohol and drugs and how long it took for alcohol to be dissipated from ones system.
Of course all screening should be done in the correct manner and it is probably "off limits" for this to be conducted in front of other staff members, although it might be useful to have a witness to confirm that the process is being conducted properly.
In conclusion, random testing has my full support for those in safety critical occupations - this would include cabin crew as well as flight deck.
Of course all screening should be done in the correct manner and it is probably "off limits" for this to be conducted in front of other staff members, although it might be useful to have a witness to confirm that the process is being conducted properly.
In conclusion, random testing has my full support for those in safety critical occupations - this would include cabin crew as well as flight deck.
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As mentioned above it inflicts unnecessary stress on crews at check in.
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Nothing to hide, that is the point!
As far as I know, all pilots are very very serious about their tasks and responsibilities when it comes to work. The fact that we should be subject to random screening is in it self an assumtion that there is a need for it.
As mentioned before, I felt great discomfort with having to undergo the tests, even though I know I have nothing to hide. In my pervious life I conducted alcohol and drugs tests on military personell, and I know that there is a margin of error.
As you said, if an error does occur, the person affected will be subject to even more suspicion.
We have a peer intervention culture that workes well, and in addition we have to do a medical examination once or twice a year. The doctors will pick up any hits of alcoholism. And if the person is not a drunk, than I trust my peers judgement. And trust them not to show up for work if in doubt of the alcohol, or drug level in their blood.
The same judgement I trust them to use when operating heavy metal at high speeds!!
As mentioned before, I felt great discomfort with having to undergo the tests, even though I know I have nothing to hide. In my pervious life I conducted alcohol and drugs tests on military personell, and I know that there is a margin of error.
As you said, if an error does occur, the person affected will be subject to even more suspicion.
We have a peer intervention culture that workes well, and in addition we have to do a medical examination once or twice a year. The doctors will pick up any hits of alcoholism. And if the person is not a drunk, than I trust my peers judgement. And trust them not to show up for work if in doubt of the alcohol, or drug level in their blood.
The same judgement I trust them to use when operating heavy metal at high speeds!!
Someone thinks they may be "a touch over" but, WTH, report for duty anyway!
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London Mill......next time you and your children fly, you wont mind sitting behind a pilot who is stressed....? brave man.....
Sorry Slf guy wrong reply..but having said that It would surprise me whether you are involved in aviation yourself since you don't seen to have any knowledge on how things work....
People go sick when they are unhappy,stressed,piss--d off etc.This means extra costs to the business.Poor working practices create high turnover rates ,high training costs...etc
Do you have any idea how long it takes to get a pilot on line from engagement?.....and the costs involved.
Sorry Slf guy wrong reply..but having said that It would surprise me whether you are involved in aviation yourself since you don't seen to have any knowledge on how things work....
People go sick when they are unhappy,stressed,piss--d off etc.This means extra costs to the business.Poor working practices create high turnover rates ,high training costs...etc
Do you have any idea how long it takes to get a pilot on line from engagement?.....and the costs involved.
Last edited by deathcruzer; 16th Nov 2006 at 14:37.
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Pilots never party.
They are superhuman machines that can stand 17 hours of duty without feeling sleepy, they don't eat or drink in the cockpit, they control transonic machines that weight hundreds of tons, they challege the strongest natural events without the least change in their heartpulse.
Sometimes they fail, stop working properly or just reach the "best before" date (60 yrs old) but are easily replaced by those everworking pilots producing plants called FTOs.
As a superhuman machine I feel insulted by this proposal of random testing, as I am from the security harassment.
Anyway the only way I will have to avoid both is to avoid flying.
The problems I had infligh related to drugs and alchool abuse only came from passengers, I strongly suggest random testing for them as well.
They are superhuman machines that can stand 17 hours of duty without feeling sleepy, they don't eat or drink in the cockpit, they control transonic machines that weight hundreds of tons, they challege the strongest natural events without the least change in their heartpulse.
Sometimes they fail, stop working properly or just reach the "best before" date (60 yrs old) but are easily replaced by those everworking pilots producing plants called FTOs.
As a superhuman machine I feel insulted by this proposal of random testing, as I am from the security harassment.
Anyway the only way I will have to avoid both is to avoid flying.
The problems I had infligh related to drugs and alchool abuse only came from passengers, I strongly suggest random testing for them as well.
MY point, (you seem not to have got it - bless), is that the original poster seemed to be of the opinion that such random tests may dissuade someone who was 'borderline' from pitching up for work. If that's part of his argument against testing then I reiterate my comment - I hope to God he's not a pilot!
You have a problem with that logic?...
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Re-read the quote in my post - it relates to someone who maybe borderline after a party the night before.... how the hell did you manage to leap from that to a pilot under stress...
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In the USA during the 'war on drugs', an office manager was reported to the feds for her extreme cocaine habit. The result: all pilots and the dfo subjected to random and regular pee checks. ( All negative). For her, nothing. Cos she wasn't in a 'safety related role'.
Horse's a@@e.
Self regulation is alive and well.
Horse's a@@e.
Self regulation is alive and well.
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[QUOTE=deathcruzer;2969342]London Mill......next time you and your children fly, you wont mind sitting behind a pilot who is stressed....? brave man.....
Sorry Slf guy wrong reply..but having said that It would surprise me whether you are involved in aviation yourself since you don't seen to have any knowledge on how things work....
QUOTE]
Apology accepted but you then start to piss all over your own toast again..my comment required NO knowledge of 'how things work' as it related entirely to the 'borderline' scenario.
I make no comment regarding other stress inducing factors involved in the testing as I am not qualified to do so.
Sorry Slf guy wrong reply..but having said that It would surprise me whether you are involved in aviation yourself since you don't seen to have any knowledge on how things work....
QUOTE]
Apology accepted but you then start to piss all over your own toast again..my comment required NO knowledge of 'how things work' as it related entirely to the 'borderline' scenario.
I make no comment regarding other stress inducing factors involved in the testing as I am not qualified to do so.
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SLFguy,
For a member of aircrew the limit is 20 mg/100 ml of blood.That works out at about 1/2 pint of average larger.For a driver it is 80mg/100ml of blood..2 pints appx of average strength beer.At those levels it might be hard to know where the borderline is....It takes many years of time and effort to get a driving seat in an airliner.
But you are missing the point here.
The increase in intrusive monitoring is the problem.Why now has it become a issue?.It unnerves me to see a blind acceptance of yet more draconian measures by the general public.At some point we have to draw the line.Unless you want to live in an Orwellian state.
For a member of aircrew the limit is 20 mg/100 ml of blood.That works out at about 1/2 pint of average larger.For a driver it is 80mg/100ml of blood..2 pints appx of average strength beer.At those levels it might be hard to know where the borderline is....It takes many years of time and effort to get a driving seat in an airliner.
But you are missing the point here.
The increase in intrusive monitoring is the problem.Why now has it become a issue?.It unnerves me to see a blind acceptance of yet more draconian measures by the general public.At some point we have to draw the line.Unless you want to live in an Orwellian state.
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Without wishing to get into an argument, if you are flying the next day and you still decide to attend a party shouldn't you try to adhere to a sensible rule of a decent amount of sleep and only moderate (2 or 3 units) alcohol consumption in the 24 hours prior to a flight, zero units alcohol in the 12 hours before a flight? Or am I being naive?
What are the guidelines on this nowadays? What exactly is the alcohol limit - presumably most have trace alcohol retention? Scrub that last bit after reading the above quote - teach me to type quicker!
What are the guidelines on this nowadays? What exactly is the alcohol limit - presumably most have trace alcohol retention? Scrub that last bit after reading the above quote - teach me to type quicker!
Last edited by mikehammer; 16th Nov 2006 at 15:50. Reason: Saw one answer appeared while I was typing
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H&S issue versus 'big brother' style interference - the philosophical argument will be never ending.
The self regulation argument worries me (as it does in any and all professions); what of the junior FO who is too nervous or even scared to challenge his captain? In a different scenario such an eventuality has even been mentioned in this very forum!
Commercial pilots are responsible for the lives of hundreds of pax every day and every reasonable precaution should be taken; as long as it is handled properly I'm not sure why pilots should be exempt from something that most folks would see as reasonable (and I am sure that most pilots would see as reasonable).
The self regulation argument worries me (as it does in any and all professions); what of the junior FO who is too nervous or even scared to challenge his captain? In a different scenario such an eventuality has even been mentioned in this very forum!
Commercial pilots are responsible for the lives of hundreds of pax every day and every reasonable precaution should be taken; as long as it is handled properly I'm not sure why pilots should be exempt from something that most folks would see as reasonable (and I am sure that most pilots would see as reasonable).
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mikehammer,
In a perfect world you stop....But with the duty rostering practises currently used, when aircrew do get off to a bash....not an easy thing to arrange these days ...well, the amount consumed may go unnoticed. However, don't get me wrong I am NOT in favour of aircrew piss..g it up and then going off to work..But i would rather their colleagues steered them here, as has happened in the past.
In a perfect world you stop....But with the duty rostering practises currently used, when aircrew do get off to a bash....not an easy thing to arrange these days ...well, the amount consumed may go unnoticed. However, don't get me wrong I am NOT in favour of aircrew piss..g it up and then going off to work..But i would rather their colleagues steered them here, as has happened in the past.