American Pilots view of TWA Pilot merger.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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I think what's fair is to place seniority IAW hourly pay at time of buyout as I previously suggested. Make adjustments for B-scale, if you must, but don't make your new brothers second class citizens. It doesn't matter to me where they came from (sinking lifeboat), but where they are. They are AA pilots.
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Ignition Override: The best thing to come from the Republic/Northwest merger, from my perspective, was the large plastic garbage bag in the cockpit to replace the airsickness bags used up to that point. Just kidding. Many good things came from the Republic culture and the "red book" people benefited greatly. Especially the training department. You cannot imagine what it was like in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. Enjoy your postings...forgive my cyncism of the company rag. I really kind of like it.
Thread Starter
Dallas Dude made some very interesting observations, especially if the facts as stated are accurate.
Michael744: I sure sympathize with folks who worked under Mr Nyrop for many years, although some say that he was very straight forward and "up front" etc, and produced an airline with the best debt/equity ratio in the US industry. Some people thought he was an ok guy. And Mr Rothmeier could have developed so much more service potential if he had taken an interest in his people, instead of using his cold, abrasive approach.
A large batch of MD-80s (at discount) would have been so much more more efficient than the DC-9, and could serve DTW-DFW, IAH, or MSP-MIA/FLL,DEN,SLC markets etc without limiting (or selecting a questionable alternate) fuel in favor of revenue...but didn't AA CEO Crandall plan so well that he ordered most of the MD-80s which were available? Had the narrow body planes been produced much sooner, maybe Airbus would have offered him a financial "incentive" to buy the brand-new A-320?
Government subsidies to a civilian and military sector (Airbus) can certainly increase market share, when the competition (Boeing) is only subsidized on the military side. I wonder how much it cost the British and European taxpayers, in order to market planes at or below cost?
Michael744: I sure sympathize with folks who worked under Mr Nyrop for many years, although some say that he was very straight forward and "up front" etc, and produced an airline with the best debt/equity ratio in the US industry. Some people thought he was an ok guy. And Mr Rothmeier could have developed so much more service potential if he had taken an interest in his people, instead of using his cold, abrasive approach.
A large batch of MD-80s (at discount) would have been so much more more efficient than the DC-9, and could serve DTW-DFW, IAH, or MSP-MIA/FLL,DEN,SLC markets etc without limiting (or selecting a questionable alternate) fuel in favor of revenue...but didn't AA CEO Crandall plan so well that he ordered most of the MD-80s which were available? Had the narrow body planes been produced much sooner, maybe Airbus would have offered him a financial "incentive" to buy the brand-new A-320?
Government subsidies to a civilian and military sector (Airbus) can certainly increase market share, when the competition (Boeing) is only subsidized on the military side. I wonder how much it cost the British and European taxpayers, in order to market planes at or below cost?
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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RRAAMJET
So many TWA pilots had AA aps in because it is an outstanding airline with better career potential, better pay, better everything than TWA. To suggest these pilots have no right to expect improve their situation with the merger doesn't stand up. What did an American new hire have to gain versus what American gained by the hire? A lot versus a little. So what? My main point is by creating a second class with "staples" and long-term "fences", you create an abiding, long-lasting anger in the victims, and an arrogance in the winners that is no good for either side and, I think, can even have a CRM/Safety implication at some point in the cockpit ...(oops)... I mean flight deck. Look at Northwest. Republic pilots are still fenced after 15 years and there are three different groups at play there still, Northwest, Republic, and after-the-merger pilots. Why not put everyoone on the same footing now and get it over with? I submit that W-2 is the fairest way, accounts for different status of airlines at merger time, and avoids the long-term problems by putting everyone on the same team. I have no personal interest in the TWA/AA outcome except that I hate to see a fellow pilot (and ALPA) group get a raw deal that will linger and fester for years.
So many TWA pilots had AA aps in because it is an outstanding airline with better career potential, better pay, better everything than TWA. To suggest these pilots have no right to expect improve their situation with the merger doesn't stand up. What did an American new hire have to gain versus what American gained by the hire? A lot versus a little. So what? My main point is by creating a second class with "staples" and long-term "fences", you create an abiding, long-lasting anger in the victims, and an arrogance in the winners that is no good for either side and, I think, can even have a CRM/Safety implication at some point in the cockpit ...(oops)... I mean flight deck. Look at Northwest. Republic pilots are still fenced after 15 years and there are three different groups at play there still, Northwest, Republic, and after-the-merger pilots. Why not put everyoone on the same footing now and get it over with? I submit that W-2 is the fairest way, accounts for different status of airlines at merger time, and avoids the long-term problems by putting everyone on the same team. I have no personal interest in the TWA/AA outcome except that I hate to see a fellow pilot (and ALPA) group get a raw deal that will linger and fester for years.
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It seems to me, being an outsider, that the TWA pilots are asking for the moon and are getting into a feeding frenzy. If I was an AA pilot, I would say DOH my behind and so they have.
I thought the world of TWA, but they were a faltering airline, no not using Compton for this. They barely manage to post a profit, even though all the other airlines were going like gang busters. I never considered applying to them, since it was only a matter of time. Luckily, AA saw something they liked and aquired the company, aquired not merged.
All TWA pilots will get a windfall, simply by being on AA property, even if they were stapled (Which they wont be IMHO). Working for a financially sound carrier as opposed to one who has declared CH 11 more times that I can remember and this time I believe CH7, sure beats being unemployed.
Now I see this BS from TWA pilots, who believe they should get rewarded for years at TWA, while not giving a seconds thought to how many AA pilots are going to see their career expectations set back 3-5 years.
If I get aquired on the doorstep of CH7, I know where I will end up, but if I can still pay my bills, I will be a happy camper.
Might it all come down to ego's at play here. "Sonny, I flew the pond before you could spell Int'l, I do not care what you think". If so, sad.
I thought the world of TWA, but they were a faltering airline, no not using Compton for this. They barely manage to post a profit, even though all the other airlines were going like gang busters. I never considered applying to them, since it was only a matter of time. Luckily, AA saw something they liked and aquired the company, aquired not merged.
All TWA pilots will get a windfall, simply by being on AA property, even if they were stapled (Which they wont be IMHO). Working for a financially sound carrier as opposed to one who has declared CH 11 more times that I can remember and this time I believe CH7, sure beats being unemployed.
Now I see this BS from TWA pilots, who believe they should get rewarded for years at TWA, while not giving a seconds thought to how many AA pilots are going to see their career expectations set back 3-5 years.
If I get aquired on the doorstep of CH7, I know where I will end up, but if I can still pay my bills, I will be a happy camper.
Might it all come down to ego's at play here. "Sonny, I flew the pond before you could spell Int'l, I do not care what you think". If so, sad.
Union Goon
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Ben there,
Even in the case of a staple, they will still be paid for LENGTH OF SERVICE FROM TWA.
Their paychecks are going up even with a staple. What you are proposing is worse than a staple.
The staple is only for purposes of bidding, they will be paid based on the number of years back to their original date of hire at TWA.
Cheers
Wino
Even in the case of a staple, they will still be paid for LENGTH OF SERVICE FROM TWA.
Their paychecks are going up even with a staple. What you are proposing is worse than a staple.
The staple is only for purposes of bidding, they will be paid based on the number of years back to their original date of hire at TWA.
Cheers
Wino
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Career expectations, compensation, and strength of the carrier ARE key components of fair seniority integrations, and have been over the years - and will stand up in civil court. Unfortunately, TWA had no expectations of having a career beyond March, had industry trailing compensation, and was weak to the point of complete failure.
Thread Starter
Interesting observations up there-the TWA Merger Committee might have made aggressive proposals when they knew that their jobs were fairly secure, but on the otherhand, just why is it the TWA pilots' fault that the airline was ruined by Mr. Carl Icahn, and certain individuals before him?
He owned a serious fraction of wholesale TWA ticket stock for years and none of that profit went to TWA, not including some retirement fund money (from all the employees) and huge chunks of vital cashflow which ended up in Icahn's pockets years ago. And so this was also the pilots' fault?
If every so-called US airline merger were between "peer airlines", not many mergers would have taken place, due to the much larger financial debt loads involved? If true, the concept of actual peer airlines could not exist, in terms of mergers. And if this is also the case, then the Pilot Merger Committees at airlines which are bought out could never expect even an adjusted seniority date/ratios, could they? Any pilot group, whose company buys another airline (despite the resulting airline being a new legal entity...), almost always try to justify ways to limit the other pilot groups' career options.
Back to the point: why are pilots responsible for a corporate shark's greed and corporate destruction? Were Pan Am pilots responsible for the downfall of that great airline?
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
He owned a serious fraction of wholesale TWA ticket stock for years and none of that profit went to TWA, not including some retirement fund money (from all the employees) and huge chunks of vital cashflow which ended up in Icahn's pockets years ago. And so this was also the pilots' fault?
If every so-called US airline merger were between "peer airlines", not many mergers would have taken place, due to the much larger financial debt loads involved? If true, the concept of actual peer airlines could not exist, in terms of mergers. And if this is also the case, then the Pilot Merger Committees at airlines which are bought out could never expect even an adjusted seniority date/ratios, could they? Any pilot group, whose company buys another airline (despite the resulting airline being a new legal entity...), almost always try to justify ways to limit the other pilot groups' career options.
Back to the point: why are pilots responsible for a corporate shark's greed and corporate destruction? Were Pan Am pilots responsible for the downfall of that great airline?
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Never heard of an airline in the usa where pilots' mismanagement of their assigned responsibilities brought down a whole airline..few planes maybe...
